Capacitor totem

[nazrakin]

Honestly, I still see no reason that Capacitor should be "stompable". Its easy enough to run out of it and the Shaman cannot use any other air totem until it goes off, I think that is more than enough to balance what it does.

[shell]

It's not that I can't see where people are coming from but here's what I see as their argument:

"this totem sucks, I have to use a glyph, earthgrab/frozen power, and a talent to make it work for me"

The problem with this argument:

the totem could be untargettable and you would still have to use a glyph, earthgrab/frozen power, and a talent to make it work the way you want.

That's why the health argument doesn't work for me. The instant argument doesn't work for me either, unless someone is arguing it for enhance only. And even then its just a 'wag the dog' argument IMO, because its diverting attention away from what the real issue is which I can only assume is mobility. Do what needs to be done for enhance to be more mobile and the issue with capacitor isn't as glaring as they see it, in my eyes.

[Endus]

Honestly, I still see no reason that Capacitor should be "stompable". Its easy enough to run out of it and the Shaman cannot use any other air totem until it goes off, I think that is more than enough to balance what it does.

You need to consider that you can chuck it with Totemic Projection, too.

Dropping it into a pack of enemies with 0.5 second left on the timer is pretty damn strong. Perhaps less so for Enhancement, but Enhancement has other advantages; there's no reason every part of our toolkit should be just as useful for Enhancement as any other spec. As long as the collective whole of each spec is balanced, I'm perfectly fine with each having different advantages and disadvantages, and taking more or less benefit from any one of our abilities.

It's not that I can't see where people are coming from but here's what I see as their argument:

"this totem sucks, I have to use a glyph, earthgrab/frozen power, and a talent to make it work for me"

My own issue with this argument is the middle bit. It's an argument that's based on the concept of "baseline", and more importantly, the mistaken belief that every ability should be fully usable at maximum capability without any use of talents or glyphs to improve on it. That doesn't hold up. Glyphs and particularly talents are meant to improve on the baseline ability. That's what they're for. Nor is complaining about the baseline status much of an argument if there's a way to mitigate that already; you're complaining about something you could choose to fix, but won't.

"Baseline" as a factor in complaints is irrelevant and useless. Nobody plays by baseline abilities alone. We're balanced around having the full suite of glyphs and talents. You cannot exclude them.

[Deleted]

Totemic Projection needs to be fixed, its just not very accurate when it spreads the totems out like that...you can't be precise in your targetting. They should cluster them closer to the reticle, just spread out enough to target individually but still very close so its somewhat reliable in dropping it and effecting the area you want it to.

Capacitor totem takes some time to get used to working properly, not many people notice it in BG's so far but I do wish it had like 5%HP......I would even say remove the detonate reduction glyph if it was given some base HP. It really bothers me how some of our most important totems can be killed so easily with 5HP, like capacitor, stormlash, and stone bulwark.....and two of those are air element so you can't even protect them with grounding totem. I personally hate the totem tier as well and find it rather useless, and TP seems to be the default choice but its just so clunky to use.

Don't know why they stuck Shaman with the most vulnerable and least effective aoe stun out there, with no real way to protect it. Would be cool if grounding totem could be dropped regardless of other air totems, just so you could use it for some active defense. I think totems still need some work and development, they went thru some big changes and are not totally balanced in my eyes....with longer CD's they need more base defenses.

TP is 100% accurate, there is nothing random to the placement, so you would have to clarify why it's not to you.
And I have played quite alot of arena by now, and it's SO rare they players kill my capacitor totem. If I place it obviously, in the open, yes it might get destroyed. Just place it LOS from your enemy and TP it where ever you want

[CHRONICGODX]

i landed a double capacitor stun on a couple scrubs today on the tournament realm. i shit my pants i got so lucky. no glyph used. =O

i also stunned another dude with an unglyphed capacitor. i missed my relocation by a mile. he walked into it. im going to put that one in the "great success" column.

[shell]

i landed a double capacitor stun on a couple scrubs today on the tournament realm. i shit my pants i got so lucky. no glyph used. =O

i also stunned another dude with an unglyphed capacitor. i missed my relocation by a mile. he walked into it. im going to put that one in the "great success" column.

LoL. Well, I'm assuming, even aside from those examples in which the opposing players weren't the best or brightest, that there are instances where you've been able to land your stun totem. So what is it exactly that you are doing that, perhaps, these other enhancement shamans are not?

[CHRONICGODX]

LoL. Well, I'm assuming, even aside from those examples in which the opposing players weren't the best or brightest, that there are instances where you've been able to land your stun totem. So what is it exactly that you are doing that, perhaps, these other enhancement shamans are not?

ok, being serious, i thought this totem was pretty stupid before, and i joined in on a lot of the qq, but after playing with it for a bit, i can say im a fan.

the best way to land capacitor stuns is off of another teammate's cc in a chain. a player who has control of his toon wont get stunned unless he has no awareness of the game. capacitor is best used when you have multiple enemy players CC'd at the same time

example: enhance / rogue / disc vs. MLD, no glyph, relocation talent taken

enhance hexes mage, disc covers the dispel with a fear on the druid while the rogue puts the lock into a 5 point kidney. under best case scenario you drop your capacitor the next global after you hex the mage, and are watching the fear pathing on the druid and leading your relocation accordingly.

basically, using capacitor depends on covering the potential totem stomp with cross CC on other opponents just as you would cover a hex onto a team with double curse dispellers with a blanket cs, or another type of CC. as in the above example, your hex is useless on the mage unless the druid is prevented from dispelling. there's no difference between the two really.

obviously theres a ton of ways to use this totem, my example was pretty specific, but the gist of it is just ramping your game up and coordinating CC with your team to force a 3v1, or even essentially a 3v0 if you CC all members of the team. tunneling CC chains into 1 target to force a 3v2 will only marginally increase your chance of getting a kill, every class has so many ways to peel now and right clicking on a 5hp totem isnt high on the skillcap of peeling effectively.

[Omanley]

It might be annoying, but frankly pvp would be a lot better off if most cc were like this.

I wouldn't mind if all CCs where like ours; requiring skill and tactics to pull of. Sadly, that isn't the case, and likely never will be. It is more likely to get an competitively simple CC as one of the few classes who doesn'st have them then having all others get harder to implement, more complecated versions that they will complain about to no end anyway.

Back when you used to play, before Cata, you liked enhance, right?

I've always liked enh. But I was also frustrated about the class/spec. In 3s, I always felt like I was the one depending on the others the most. Enh in wotlk was basically purge spam, wolves+lust and that was mostly it. Enh got a lot of new tools, so versatility itself isn't really a big weakness anymore. Our weakness is that our utility is in many cases flat-out inferior.
And the major reason for that is that at best equal effects are tied to inferior totems. Yes, totems as they are are weaknesses. Either you super-charge their effects or cut down their drawbacks. If not, they are more a shamans bane than boon. Grounding vs Spellreflect, CPT vs any stun, EBT vs Freezing Trap, SBT vs other absorbs and so on...

You had hex and yet even with all of its flaws, and enhancements flaws, somehow you managed to overcome them and do well with the spec, right? I'm not being sarcastic, so don't read it that way.

I managed a 2170 rating in threes at my best (we only encountered weak teams at that point, losing in rating even with a 5:1 win ratio at that time, so I am confidend we could've managed more).
But just like with raid dps, you cant help but feel all like: I could be so much better, if only my class was not so uncompetitive.

For me, the state of our cc, while not irrelevant is just not as important as other things.

All depends on how you look at it. If enh had like super strong cc (being able to keep two enemies busy for longer time periods), then gap closing lacks wouldn't be as severe, since we only have to close the gap to a single, un-CCed target. Totem survivability would also be less an issue.
I see CC as a port of our uncompetitiveness, neither the absolute reason nor a neglectible one.

That's beyond silly. Shaman have different gameplay than others, yes. It's not quantitatively worse than others. We don't have extra hoops to jump through that make our gameplay more difficult than anyone else. That is simply not true.

Yes, we have extra hurdles, because EVERYONE has extra hurdles.

That's weird, because I kinda played every single class, some to a bigger extend than others, granted. But I got an insight into how the other classes work. And with no class I have experienced restrictions as severe as with my shaman. And that's kinda weird, since when you're inexperienced with a class, you tend to run into problematic situations much more often. Aside from recources (and combopoints for ferals) for example, I cant remember big weaknesses when playing any other melee (except ret maybe, which felt kinda bland during wotlk/cata (like enh)).

Name me comparable hurdles. I, on top of my head, have problems thinking of any such things. With other melees, I felt like a god in pvp, heroic instances and while leveling, even with crappy gear. I could not say the same with enh.

How about if you couldn't use some of your spells because you're in the wrong form, like Druids or Shadow Priests?
How about if half your toolkit had shared cooldowns like shocks do, as it is for Death Knights with the Rune system?
How about if a bunch of your abilities were only usable for openers from a special stance, and another bunch were only usable if you stacked up enough combo points, like rogues and feral druids?

The fact is, everyone has limitations and controlling factors. You can't just say "what if we made other people have our restrictions, they'd QQ", because if you gave us THEIR restrictions, we'd QQ too.

As for druids, to counter their form restrictions, every form has a huge set of specific abilities, especially made for said spec. A shaman in contrast shares his spells across specs. Plus there's been talents implement and other mechanics, lessening that restriction in other ways (like abilities usable in every form, or removed restritions allowing you to cast spell which used to break your form before).
As for priests: I am not 100% sure about all their restrictions at the time, but I think they have pretty strong heals even in shadowform, coupled with very strong damage. As for stuff like dispells and absorbs (which (I think) still dont work in SF): yes, I think blizz should lessen that one restriction, as it doesn't feel fun to play switching out of SF just to perform those actions. In those rare occassions you'll need one gcd extra (to shift back) and that's annoying I guess. But try comparing that with 5hp 1min+ cds... no comparison.
A death knight gets as compensation for (for example) ice chains requiring runes (aside from the ability to glyph away that need) the ability to cast that snare right after. Plus the ability to increase rune generation, refresh runes, convert runes into death runes and and and.
A rogue/feral gets as compensation for having their stun tied to cps as compensation a heavily reduced cooldown on it. Cps are rather fast to generate also, and rogues have probably the biggest arsenal of any class when it comes to pvp utility also.
And warriors had their stance requirements removed for the most part (are there even any left?).

When you look at shamans: Where is the compensation for totem drawbacks? There is none. They are simply like others' counterparts, but worse.

No, but it DOES mean you've identified a bunch of other things you think are bigger deals that you'd rather address through glyphs. Totem health is pretty far down your list of disadvantages you'd like to glyph away.

If you like to stick to that point, I dont think it makes any sense continuing that any further.
Just one thing: When you're playing in threes on a higher rating and over 80% of your cd totems are insta-stomped, try and label it as a ~minor~ concern, or saying it would be minor if I could stomp a rogues evasion, vanish and the like.

I can't eat and sleep at the same time. And I can swap my glyphs whenever I want. So I'll swap in the eating glyph when I need it, and the sleeping glyph when I need that.

I wasn't talking about a set time though, but the entire life. What good does it do you to be able to switch between matches, if you need all that stuff allways? You always need a reliable stun, big selfheals and mobility. There's no such thing in optionality in such a case. It would be optional chosing between a hex glyph and a purge glyph for example, but the former named ones are pretty much needed always. Even if you dont glyph hex or purge, they work. If you dont heavily support CPT, it wont.

---------- Post added 2012-10-22 at 02:51 PM ----------

So why not address this instead of arguing for health on totems. I don't think the two are as correlated as you think they are. Having more totem health isn't going to magically solve your issue with mobilility or self healing. You would still be using those two glyphs.

They are related. Because enh lacks mobility, gw glyph is pretty much mandatory. Because enh is heavily depend on selfheals as their survivability, HS cannot really be given up. Because totems are easily stompable, TV is pretty much required. Because CPT is easily countered if not glyphed, it is also required. All those problems are connected through limited glyph slots.
I think that mobility may be enhances biggest concern atm, but that doesn't mean totem hp is not another.

[Endus]

I managed a 2170 rating in threes at my best (we only encountered weak teams at that point, losing in rating even with a 5:1 win ratio at that time, so I am confidend we could've managed more).
But just like with raid dps, you cant help but feel all like: I could be so much better, if only my class was not so uncompetitive.

When did you resub? Last I heard, you'd quit before Firelands.

I assume you resubbed, since you're certainly implying that you're talking here about the current/recent state of Enhancement. I'm sure you're not trying to claim that your experiences almost 2 years ago remain relevant given that the entire game and the class have been overhauled extensively in that time frame. That would be ridiculous.

[Omanley]

When did you resub? Last I heard, you'd quit before Firelands.

I assume you resubbed, since you're certainly implying that you're talking here about the current/recent state of Enhancement. I'm sure you're not trying to claim that your experiences almost 2 years ago remain relevant given that the entire game and the class have been overhauled extensively in that time frame. That would be ridiculous.

I managed 2170 in wotlk (s7, shell was talking about my pre cata enh experiences). Yes, you remember correctly, my account ran out just before firelands, but I haven't resubbed. I pondered if I should for MoP, but ultimately decided to wait for pvp results after a couple of months and then decide. There is to say though the coming year calls for more real life dedication on my part, so I may or may not return for a while even if I were convinced we (enh) were fine and would like to play.

[Endus]

I managed 2170 in wotlk (s7, shell was talking about my pre cata enh experiences). Yes, you remember correctly, my account ran out just before firelands, but I haven't resubbed. I pondered if I should for MoP, but ultimately decided to wait for pvp results after a couple of months and then decide. There is to say though the coming year calls for more real life dedication on my part, so I may or may not return for a while even if I were convinced we (enh) were fine and would like to play.

Then don't go posting on these forums as if Enhancement were still the same as it had been during WotLK.

I don't have any issue with people posting who aren't actively playing, the issue is that you have a habit of acting as if nothing has changed since you quit, when a great deal has changed. We're not discussing Enhancement in 2010, we're discussing Enhancement at the launch of Pandaria.

[shell]

I asked him about when he played enhance because I'm trying to point out to him that the things he sees as problems with our cc and totem survivability don't really have anything to do with the primary issues. He was competitive back then with 5 hp totems and hex but he keeps pointing to these things as reasons why he didn't do as well as he wanted.

Also, if you read through the posts you'll discover that Capacitor is not nearly as counterable as you seem to think, even at higher ratings. Yes, a lot of people complain about it, but that just the way forums work, almost no one goes on forums to write about things they like.

[Deleted]

The totem sucks, and should be removed / replaced with a stun that can be casted instead.

[Omanley]

I'm not saying it is the same, but similar. In wotlk, enh was basically a one-trick pony which relied on the utility on others to actually work. Now it has utility, but much more limited one than most others. Just because I dont actively play doesn't mean I cant see the flaws in losing mobility like Earthern Power, or having to rely much more on totems while keeping their drawbacks 1:1.

I honestly think that from what I've seen on this site during beta, enh is likely better than it ever was. See? I openly prove you wrong in your claim in saying that I claim we haven't made ANY progress. IN fact I've never said we remained the same. What galls me is that new stuff like SBT and CPT, which you would expect would contain the results of blizzards' 10year long experience in wow-game-design would be so heavily flawed in comparison with similar abilities, instead of having a simple, easy to implement and fun/competitive to use ability.

Every stun is either an instant single target or aoe stun. The only exception from this aside CPT would be the dk thingy. But even that is not destroyable, is mobile AND pulses a stacking snares. I do think however (if, that is, it still being like that), that the effect should not require five stacks to stun, but just the last pulse (if that is not the case though (you can just dispell one pulse and the stun will never happen), I admit that there's at least one other class with a bad stun (though not as bad as CPT).

What stopped blizz in making a ~normal~ one? Nothing. That's what galls me. Similar story with SBT. A one-shottable survivability cooldown? Doesn't that defeat the principle of survivability?

They've done great with dps cooldowns, enh dps apparantly does good as well and enh pve utility seems to be great also. From a pure pve standpoint, I dont think there is much to complain about. I do think however that in terms of pvp, there is much that could be better. And I've seen a lot of posts saying exactly that: Pve yay, pvp meh.

I've always been one of those players who needed lots of both, and decided for myself if enh doesn't become awesome in both areas, I wont bother returning. That's my priority: Either the game is satisfactory (dont care that much about art, pandas, content and the like, so for me that means enh pve/p both awesome), or I wont resub.

---------- Post added 2012-10-22 at 04:25 PM ----------

I asked him about when he played enhance because I'm trying to point out to him that the things he sees as problems with our cc and totem survivability don't really have anything to do with the primary issues. He was competitive back then with 5 hp totems and hex but he keeps pointing to these things as reasons why he didn't do as well as he wanted.

Also, if you read through the posts you'll discover that Capacitor is not nearly as counterable as you seem to think, even at higher ratings. Yes, a lot of people complain about it, but that just the way forums work, almost no one goes on forums to write about things they like.

Because totems were easily replaced back then, so survivability naturally wasn't much an issue. Tremor had no cooldown, grounding and earthbind had a lower one, many utility totem cds didn't come into being before mop beta (healing tide, healing stream, CPT, SBT, WWT, Stormlash) and SCT had it's effect the moment you placed it.

[Endus]

I'm not saying it is the same, but similar.

And it's not. Hence the issue.

In wotlk, enh was basically a one-trick pony which relied on the utility on others to actually work. Now it has utility, but much more limited one than most others. Just because I dont actively play doesn't mean I cant see the flaws in losing mobility like Earthern Power, or having to rely much more on totems while keeping their drawbacks 1:1.

It does when you deliberately ignore the multiple gains in mobility, and the removal of multiple totem restrictions. Enhancement is not less mobile now than it was in WotLK; it is more mobile. Enhancement does not rely more on totems now; it relies less on them. You are deliberately ignoring positive changes, so that you can try and look at negative changes in a vacuum. It's like saying "oh man, I have to pay more taxes this year" while ignoring that the reason you're paying more taxes is that you got a raise that put you into a higher tax bracket, so your take-home net income is still higher. It's a biased and misleading style of argument.

What galls me is that new stuff like SBT and CPT, which you would expect would contain the results of blizzards' 10year long experience in wow-game-design would be so heavily flawed in comparison with similar abilities, instead of having a simple, easy to implement and fun/competitive to use ability.

They are simple, easy, fun, and competitive. You're putting them into a vacuum again, where you can ignore everything else about the class, to try and falsely insist that these abilities are a certain way, when they are not. There is absolutely nothing wrong with our totems. At all.

Every stun is either an instant single target or aoe stun. The only exception from this aside CPT would be the dk thingy. But even that is not destroyable, is mobile AND pulses a stacking snares.

And Cataclysm. Both of which are significantly more difficult to pull off than hitting people with Capacitor Totem, since they're both focused on the caster, and have much flashier effects that make it more obvious that you should get out. Capacitor Totem has multiple advantages compared to each. This is the kind of vacuum I keep mentioning; you're ignoring everything good and pretending that this means there is only bad. It doesn't. It means you're ignoring the advantages.

What stopped blizz in making a ~normal~ one? Nothing. That's what galls me.

There are no "normal" abilities. Every class has their own take on things. That's what class variety is about. If you wanted the stuns another class has, go play that class.

Similar story with SBT. A one-shottable survivability cooldown? Doesn't that defeat the principle of survivability?

You mean the optional talent that you're complaining about because it's not as ideal in one specific type of gameplay, meaning you should have chosen a different talent?

No, you're back in the vacuum, where you ignore the advantages of our build, and try and pretend that you making the worst possible choices means the class is broken. The only person to blame for your SBT getting killed in PvP is you; if you don't like that, you should have taken NG or AS. That's why those options are THERE.

[shell]

The only exception from this aside CPT would be the dk thingy. But even that is not destroyable, is mobile AND pulses a stacking snares. I do think however (if, that is, it still being like that), that the effect should not require five stacks to stun, but just the last pulse (if that is not the case though (you can just dispell one pulse and the stun will never happen), I admit that there's at least one other class with a bad stun (though not as bad as CPT).


Because totems were easily replaced back then, so survivability naturally wasn't much an issue. Tremor had no cooldown, grounding and earthbind had a lower one, many utility totem cds didn't come into being before mop beta (healing tide, healing stream, CPT, SBT, WWT, Stormlash) and SCT had it's effect the moment you placed it.

I must admit, the first week of MoP, dk's caught me with their Remorseless Winter a handful of times, but once I learned what the spell animation looked like (which is extremely obvious btw), I haven't been caught in it since. I don't know about the other classes but the only way they can use it against an elemental shaman, is to blow some defensive cooldowns in conjunction with the spell.

As for the second paragraph, as long as I've been playing this game, shamans have been complaining about totem health. Both Call of the Elements and Totemic Restoration allow you to use Tremor twice in 1 minute. Even aside from that its not a good candidate for increased health because its effect is on use. Both Call of the elements and Totemic Restoration allow you to use Grounding up to 3 or 4 times, depending on the situation, in one minute. Also, not a good candidate for increased health because its purpose is to be destroyed. If my Grounding is just sitting there, then I didn't use it appropriately, that's on me, or sometimes in my case its my crappy lag, and doesn't have anything to do with its health. Earthbind can be use 3 times in one minute with either CotE or TR. Also, not a good candidate for more health because its effect is on use.

I know people want projection baseline but I think with the ability to reset the totems that would be a little over-the-top.

At any rate, I still don't see the correlation between totem health and mobility. Let's say ghostwolf goes baseline, you're gonna use totemic vigor? Ok, fine, you still won't be able to stick onto your target. We keep nitpicking these issues like totem health and capacitor when they're just diverting attention away from what the main issue is. I could maybe understand it IF there was another glyph that was available to help with mobility but there isn't.

I don't see how any of the things you're arguing for are going to help you with your mobility.

[Omanley]

you deliberately ignore the multiple gains in mobility

We gained UF (if you talent it that is), and FP works in melee now (we still have to talent it, but now at the expense on other stuff). We lost the freedom effect of Spiritwalk, we lost Earthern Power, and we have to glyph GW to keep its effect. We basically lost two things, have to maintenan another two at the expense of customisation and gain one actually new mobility (which is clunky to use IF you imbue-swap). Doesn't sound like much an mobility gain to me. Sprint without freedom is kinda pointless. Even in old wotlk/cata days, enh closed gaps not through awesome mechanics but through perseverence (GW being avaiable all the time).

and the removal of multiple totem restrictions.

What exactly are you talking about? They are still imobile, still attackable, for the most part still only have five hp and still are restricted to elemental brackets. Blizz may have improved on our totem system by making our buffs auras, but that wasn't a removal of totem restrictions, but a removal of totems themselves.

They are simple, easy, fun, and competitive.

A rogue or warrior stun is simple. You hit the button, your target is stunned. CPT requires timing, luck, glyphes, talents and positioning to pull it off. That is not simple. It's not easy either. And unless you enjoy punishing game mechanics, it is not fun either. And competitive surely neither.
A priest absorb is easy. Our very own Shamanistic Rage is easy. A warriors last stance is easy. You pop the button, you get the benefit. SBT, like CPT, requires positioning and luck. And you dont get the full benefit up front either, but in installments. We need absorbs mostly upfront though, you know, when there is lots of damage incoming.

And Cataclysm

Tbh, I didn't look at that yet. Lol, that is truly one shitty stun, I admit. even CPT is better of then THAT.
Warlocks however have a shitload of cc. They can fear, aoe fear, charm, ranged aoe stun, felguard stun and NOW they also gain another aoe stun? To bad that after all those excellent ccs, they get a crappy one.

Both of which are significantly more difficult to pull off than hitting people with Capacitor Totem

Um no. The warlock one maybe, since it requires channeling, but not the dk one. The dk is a melee and in the enemies' face. Try getting away from a dk following you while getting a snare stacked on you. No comparison to an immobile 5hp stick.
Plus CPT is flashy enough to guarantee quick stomping. It doesn't matter if the others are more or less flashy. The dk one has inbuild strenghts making sure you're able to pull it of. The wl one is bullshit though, unless (and the warlock himself has the software for that, we dont) you couple it with other CCs.

There are no "normal" abilities. Every class has their own take on things. That's what class variety is about. If you wanted the stuns another class has, go play that class.

Normal is putting it into nice terms. Crappy would be more accurate.
Our hex needs to be covered when encountering a druid, our CPT needs always to be covered. Other classes CCs simply work. The norm is that CCs work. When you need to give an arm and leg to make it work, something is wrong.

You mean the optional talent that you're complaining about because it's not as ideal in one specific type of gameplay, meaning you should have chosen a different talent?

So you know excuse the badness of SBT by pointing towards optionality. By your reasoning of totems being perfectly fine, I guess you're saying they could've made the other talents totems as well? Since they are so great and everything? Where is our ability to chose a pvp stun instead of CPT? SBTs entire design is bad for pvp, where SCT worked just fine (and it was MUCH less complicated to use). You pushed the button, you got the benefit, simple as that. Now we have the complicated version requiring up to half a minute uptime, while clogging the earth slot, having much less hp, not protecting other totem where it now would have made sense to have an ability like that, and all of that is supposed to be fine?

The only person to blame for your SBT getting killed in PvP is you

And the person implementing it that way, is it not? After all, if the person in question did not implement it, it wouldn't get destroyed, right? Simple logic. If you made evasion like SBT, rogues would be much more limited in its usage. Try and justify with them why that change would be a good one, since after all, if they restrict themselves to dropping it behind pillars, it works just fine.

I am critisizing not the inability to do something about totem survivability, but that we have to. Others for the most part dont have to babysit their utility to make it work. You keep talking about classes are different this and that, but never see concrete examples explaining why other classes apparantly have it just as tough.

---------- Post added 2012-10-22 at 07:14 PM ----------

I must admit...I haven't been caught in it since.

Yeah, I guess if you just wait near the end and then thunderstorm/blink/wl-warp or whatever, you can counter this very easily. Seems to be more a threatening thing against melees and healers.

As for the second paragraph

Well, your entire post repeated mostly what I said . Pre-mop we where mostly low/no cd totems. Low-cd totems dont really need higher hp, same goes for instant usage or totems supposed to get destroyed like grounding. The problem lies with most of the 1min and higher cd totems, and of that we have a lot now.

I know people want projection baseline but I think with the ability to reset the totems that would be a little over-the-top.

I dont know if I would want it baseline, or if it would be to strong in combination with call of the elements. If the latter came to pass, you could add an extra rule that resetted totems are not thrown .

At any rate, I still don't see the correlation between totem health and mobility. Let's say ghostwolf goes baseline, you're gonna use totemic vigor? Ok, fine, you still won't be able to stick onto your target.

Aye, having room for the totem glyph is about it. I wont say that our mobility issues go away if we dont have to glyph gw, but we're less punished in customisation to keep our mobility where it was. IMO enh should either have like a three second freedom effect added to UF:FB, OR an instant gap closer (for example we could get our Feral Spirits' leap ability). That's outside the topic though.

We keep nitpicking these issues like totem health and capacitor when they're just diverting attention away from what the main issue is. I could maybe understand it IF there was another glyph that was available to help with mobility but there isn't.

True, but the thread was about CPT in the first place, not mobility .

[Endus]

We gained UF (if you talent it that is), and FP works in melee now (we still have to talent it, but now at the expense on other stuff). We lost the freedom effect of Spiritwalk, we lost Earthern Power, and we have to glyph GW to keep its effect. We basically lost two things, have to maintenan another two at the expense of customisation and gain one actually new mobility (which is clunky to use IF you imbue-swap). Doesn't sound like much an mobility gain to me. Sprint without freedom is kinda pointless. Even in old wotlk/cata days, enh closed gaps not through awesome mechanics but through perseverence (GW being avaiable all the time).

You gained a sprint, Spirit Walk, separate from another cooldown.
You gained the UF sprint option.
Earthen Power was replaced by Windwalk Totem; it's not gone.
You have to glyph GW in the same way that you used to have to talent it; not as much of a qualitative change as you're claiming since Enhancement has never had an instant-cast Ghost Wolf with speed protection, baseline. Ever.
Frozen Power has been improved on.
Frostbrand Weapon was made much more usable without damage loss.

Enhancement has gained mobility options, by any reasonable comparison. Unless you try to invent a past that never existed, and ignore some of the new features we have.

What exactly are you talking about? They are still imobile, still attackable, for the most part still only have five hp and still are restricted to elemental brackets. Blizz may have improved on our totem system by making our buffs auras, but that wasn't a removal of totem restrictions, but a removal of totems themselves.

No more buff totems. This was absolutely a removal of totem restrictions; we no longer lose buffs due to using utility, nor can our buffs be killed.
Totemic Projection.
Call of the Elements and Totemic Restoration to reduce cooldowns.
Capacitor Totem being made into an air totem rather than returning to Fire Nova Totem means you can stun without losing your DPS totem.

Again, you're ignoring a ton of stuff, and dismissing other changes on no basis whatsoever other than bias.

A rogue or warrior stun is simple. You hit the button, your target is stunned. CPT requires timing, luck, glyphes, talents and positioning to pull it off. That is not simple. It's not easy either. And unless you enjoy punishing game mechanics, it is not fun either. And competitive surely neither.

You've pretty succinctly stated your bias here. CPT does require timing, admittedly. it does NOT require glyphs or talents. it requires the same positioning expectations as every Rogue or Warrior stun, save Storm Bolt (I think). It's actually more favorable in some respects than some of theirs, in that regard. And luck? No, it doesn't require "luck". It requires knowing how to play and how your abilities work. If you're dropping CPT and hoping an enemy stumbles into it, you're not using it properly.

And CPT is stronger than most of the stuns you're referring to, since it's a large AoE stun and lasts a full 5 seconds. A reasonable tradeoff for having to pay attention to the timing on it.

You cannot seriously suggest that Capacitor Totem requires "positioning" while implicitly claiming the melee-range stuns for Warriors and Rogues do not. That's bonkers.

A priest absorb is easy. Our very own Shamanistic Rage is easy. A warriors last stance is easy. You pop the button, you get the benefit. SBT, like CPT, requires positioning and luck. And you dont get the full benefit up front either, but in installments. We need absorbs mostly upfront though, you know, when there is lots of damage incoming.

Again, this is just unadulterated "I don't like Shamans" bias.

SBT, you pop the button, you get the benefit. There is NO positioning requirement. There is NO luck factor, at all. It's exactly as simple as you are claiming it is not. Nor can it be removed by killing the totem. It is NOT that vulnerable. That only removes the refreshing. If you want a bigger burst of protection up front, take Astral Shift or Nature's Guardian. That's what they're for. You can't take the one damage-over-time mitigation option and complain that it's not enough up-front protection, when the two other choices in that tier provide exactly what you want. All you're saying here is "I picked the wrong talent and I refuse to change talents like I'm supposed to". That's player error, not class design flaw.

Um no. The warlock one maybe, since it requires channeling, but not the dk one. The dk is a melee and in the enemies' face. Try getting away from a dk following you while getting a snare stacked on you. No comparison to an immobile 5hp stick.

I have. It's not hard. Not even a little. I have NEVER been stunned by that ability. Pop Thunderstorm. Pop Ghost Wolf. Pop Windwalk Totem. Other classes can simply dispel the debuff. Any shield blocking magic effects works too. There are a TON of ways to get out of it.

Normal is putting it into nice terms. Crappy would be more accurate.
Our hex needs to be covered when encountering a druid, our CPT needs always to be covered. Other classes CCs simply work. The norm is that CCs work. When you need to give an arm and leg to make it work, something is wrong.

I don't see you complaining about Mage Polymorph having to be "covered" if there's an enemy healer. Many CCs are Magic effects, and thus much more vulnerable to teams having a viable dispel. Hex being a Curse is an advantage. Hex works just like other CCs.

As before, anti-Shaman bias.

So you know excuse the badness of SBT by pointing towards optionality.

No, I excuse the situationality of SBT by pointing out that if you're taking it when it's not optimal for the situation you're in, that's player error, not a flaw in class design.

Playing badly is not a reason for Blizzard to change things. Ever. Seriously, that's a ridiculous argument. You can't say "I insist on taking the WORST POSSIBLE TALENTS I CAN, and this means my class is borked". How does that make any sense at all?

Take the proper talents for the content you're doing. You're expected to be swapping these constantly.

[Omanley]

You gained a sprint, Spirit Walk, separate from another cooldown.

True, except wolves were useless for damage/heal during cata, making us use them for the sprint mainly anyways,so it is more like we gained a dps/heal cooldown, not mobility.

Earthen Power was replaced by Windwalk Totem; it's not gone.

First, EP is not WWT. They work entirely different. Second, you cannot have both WWT and FP, where you could have EP and FP at the same time, hence a mobility loss. I kinda see FP as mandatory since it works every 6 seconds, as opposed to 5 secs mobility once a minute.

You have to glyph GW in the same way that you used to have to talent it; not as much of a qualitative change as you're claiming since Enhancement has never had an instant-cast Ghost Wolf with speed protection, baseline. Ever.

We went over this already. Talenting into Anscestral Swiftness was no loss anywhere during wotlk/cata. Ever. You took it anyway. Glyphs were kinda meh during wotlk/cata, so not much a loss to glyph for SCT either, now having to give up two slots for stuff you should have baseline hurts you much more.

Frostbrand Weapon was made much more usable without damage loss.

And at the same time SF increases now FT damage additionally, while UF additionally increases LB damage. Maybe not completely, but partly it negates that set bonus. Plus the set bonus forces FB offhand on you, no fitting with the image UF creates, encouraging imbue twisting.

Enhancement has gained mobility options, by any reasonable comparison. Unless you try to invent a past that never existed, and ignore some of the new features we have.

Enhancement also lost mobility by an reasonable comparison (unless you try to invent a past etc. etc.). I see a loss of freedom effects as more a loss as I see a sprint a gain. After all you need the combitation of the two to make up for a lack of an insta gap closer.

No more buff totems. This was absolutely a removal of totem restrictions; we no longer lose buffs due to using utility, nor can our buffs be killed.

No it wasn't. The restrictions are still the same. It's just that abilities were excluded from them, not being totems anymore. Making an ability a non-totems doesn't make totems any better. It only proves that totems are restrictive and either you have to remove them, or improve them. They didn't improve totems, they removed some. Yes, the clogged-up issue was lessened through that, but it was not removed.

Totemic Projection.

The ability is a waste, really. There's like two or three totems benefitting from it. You could just as well make those throwable baseline. Also it serves more as a crutch to help crappy CPT, not an improvement in my eyes.

Call of the Elements and Totemic Restoration to reduce cooldowns.

Aye, with CotE only finishing low cooldowns (and only totem at that). Compare that with a hunter's readiness... I guess TR is okay though(though boring, and basically going after the assumption: your totems get stomped anyways, so as a way of compensation you have lower cooldowns then (we increased some cooldowns beforehand though)).

Capacitor Totem being made into an air totem rather than returning to Fire Nova Totem means you can stun without losing your DPS totem.

And instead of a dps totem we can place again right after, we have to wait for a maybe super crucial Grounding totem to ground a CC or finisher spell. Yeah, I can totally see how 4-5 seconds of ST would be the end of the world.

You've pretty succinctly stated your bias here. CPT does require timing, admittedly. it does NOT require glyphs or talents. it requires the same positioning expectations as every Rogue or Warrior stun

Let's see. Rogue? Either he's already on the target anyway, in which case no further positioning required anyway. In case ot is another target => shadowstep and walk back. That's the extend of positioning. A warrior either stuns his melee target or charges the stun target, then jumping back. Not that much positioning either. No of course it does not require any luck or strategic thinking way above other stuns, it's just so happening that this thread popped out of nowhere because the ability is the best we ever could've dreamed for, right?

And CPT is stronger than most of the stuns you're referring to, since it's a large AoE stun and lasts a full 5 seconds. A reasonable tradeoff for having to pay attention to the timing on it.

I bet 90%+ of shamans would trade it for a hammer of justice. In a heartbeat. Doesn't sound to me like they'd saw that as reasonable tradeoff.

SBT, you pop the button, you get..

...half the benefit, the other relying on positioning and luck.

Nor can it be removed by killing the totem. It is NOT that vulnerable. That only removes the refreshing.

So the refreshing is not part of the totem? Okay... And if the refreshing is cancelled always, SBT comes down to weak upfront absorb and nothing more. I guess over-time absorbs have their uses as well, even in arena. But that is only if they are actually there.

I have. It's not hard. Not even a little. I have NEVER been stunned by that ability. Pop Thunderstorm. Pop Ghost Wolf. Pop Windwalk Totem. Other classes can simply dispel the debuff. Any shield blocking magic effects works too. There are a TON of ways to get out of it.

I guess in this case I can with good concience admit that I'm wrong. Since all you have to do is hit a gap creater in the last moment, casters will have an easy time getting out of that one.

I don't see you complaining about Mage Polymorph having to be "covered" if there's an enemy healer. Many CCs are Magic effects, and thus much more vulnerable to teams having a viable dispel. Hex being a Curse is an advantage. Hex works just like other CCs.

Except that poly has no cooldown, while hex has. One mistake and not only is your primary CC gone for 45 seconds, your secondary is stomped right after and gone for a minute. A mage can sheep again right after, and his stun cannot be stomped either, plus it only is a 24sec cd. Plus he can further cover his own ccs through counterspelling.

No, I excuse the situationality of SBT by pointing out that if you're taking it when it's not optimal for the situation you're in, that's player error, not a flaw in class design.

What makes SBT crappy for pvp is the fact that it is a totem. The same fact that makes other abilities crappy (unless they have higher health or bring their full benefit upfront). Going for another T1 talent wont change the fact that other abilities (which are not optional) are still crappy for the same reason.

When I look at a warrior's talents, I see talent tier after talent tier of abilities which would perfectly work (all three abilities) for both pve and pvp (while partly being more a situational thingy in pve (but isn't that the case for most mop talents anyways?)). It seems for others it is possible to give options, for shamans it is fine to have pve/p only talents though.

[Endus]

True, except wolves were useless for damage/heal during cata, making us use them for the sprint mainly anyways,so it is more like we gained a dps/heal cooldown, not mobility.
First, EP is not WWT. They work entirely different. Second, you cannot have both WWT and FP, where you could have EP and FP at the same time, hence a mobility loss. I kinda see FP as mandatory since it works every 6 seconds, as opposed to 5 secs mobility once a minute.

Fact remains, you're acting as if they were losses, when they were not. There were replacements for those abilities. And then gains in other aspects. A net gain overall.

We went over this already. Talenting into Anscestral Swiftness was no loss anywhere during wotlk/cata. Ever. You took it anyway.

That's simply not true. Even if you ignore Ancestral Swiftness, 41 talent points was not sufficient to take all the DPS/PvP talents an Enhancement Shaman could want. Nor were the points in AS necessary to get to the next tier. Those two points were always at the expense of other talents. They were WORTH it, but to claim it wasn't a tradeoff? No, that's just 100% false.

No it wasn't. The restrictions are still the same. It's just that abilities were excluded from them, not being totems anymore. Making an ability a non-totems doesn't make totems any better. It only proves that totems are restrictive and either you have to remove them, or improve them. They didn't improve totems, they removed some. Yes, the clogged-up issue was lessened through that, but it was not removed.

Removing some abilities from totems so they weren't required to be down DID improve the system. The response has been overwhelmingly positive in that regard, and it's something the community had been asking about for quite some time. You are just wrong, here. It reduced the ability for people to affect our buffs, and reduced the cost to using utility totems. You cannot argue that that doesn't improve the totem system.

The ability is a waste, really. There's like two or three totems benefitting from it. You could just as well make those throwable baseline. Also it serves more as a crutch to help crappy CPT, not an improvement in my eyes.

And yet, it's been high on the demand list for many people in the community.

Also, "two or three"? Earthbind, Earthgrab, Capacitor, Magma, Spirit Link. Off the top of my head, without getting into broader range issues.

And the "could just make that baseline" argument can be applied to literally everything. It's an argument that basically amounts to "I don't like having to pick one of three things, I want everything". Otherwise, what's the issue with it being a talent? If you think it's bad, don't take it. If you think it's amazing, take it. It's only an issue if you think MULTIPLE talents are amazing, which is why the argument boils down to "I don't want to pick, I want it all".

Aye, with CotE only finishing low cooldowns (and only totem at that). Compare that with a hunter's readiness

No. We're not hunters. These are baseless and irrelevant comparisons, since Hunter abilities are designed for a COMPLETLEY different context than Shaman abilities.

Let's see. Rogue? Either he's already on the target anyway, in which case no further positioning required anyway. In case ot is another target => shadowstep and walk back. That's the extend of positioning. A warrior either stuns his melee target or charges the stun target, then jumping back. Not that much positioning either. No of course it does not require any luck or strategic thinking way above other stuns, it's just so happening that this thread popped out of nowhere because the ability is the best we ever could've dreamed for, right?

None of what you described is any different in any qualitative or quantitative manner than what a Shaman has to go through for Capacitor Totem. I repeat; you're making a distinction because you're biased against Shaman. There is no effective difference otherwise.

I bet 90%+ of shamans would trade it for a hammer of justice. In a heartbeat. Doesn't sound to me like they'd saw that as reasonable tradeoff.

See what I said earlier about Hunters and different contexts.

And no, I wouldn't trade it for Hammer of Justice. I'd rather have my AoE stun. If I want a single target stun, I have other options. Also; we have stuff Paladins don't. Which, again, you like to ignore, because it doesn't fit with your bias.

So the refreshing is not part of the totem? Okay... And if the refreshing is cancelled always, SBT comes down to weak upfront absorb and nothing more. I guess over-time absorbs have their uses as well, even in arena. But that is only if they are actually there.

So take another talent. Seriously, "I'm going to pick the wrong talent for arena and then complain that it's not as good as I'd like" is a pointless argument. Just pick the proper talents, the ones that do exactly what you want. That's what the choices are THERE for.

I guess in this case I can with good concience admit that I'm wrong. Since all you have to do is hit a gap creater in the last moment, casters will have an easy time getting out of that one.

Casters AND melee. Everyone. Everyone has gap-creaters. It's not hard to avoid.

Except that poly has no cooldown, while hex has. One mistake and not only is your primary CC gone for 45 seconds, your secondary is stomped right after and gone for a minute. A mage can sheep again right after, and his stun cannot be stomped either, plus it only is a 24sec cd. Plus he can further cover his own ccs through counterspelling.

Different contexts. What off-healing capacity to mages have? Can they do knockbacks? Do they have a 12 second interrupt? No. They're a different class, and have different stuff.

You seem to be arguing that Shaman spells should be as good as the best of every class' spells, and we should be able to do EVERYTHING any other class can do. That's ridiculous. We're supposed to have weaknesses and limitations. We're not supposed to be godmode. Other classes will ALWAYS have advantages over us in some areas. Most areas, even. There's more of them than there are of us. We have our own advantages. You can't keep ignoring our advantages and complaining that because we're not better than every other class at everything, we're broken. It's beyond silly.

What makes SBT crappy for pvp is the fact that it is a totem. The same fact that makes other abilities crappy (unless they have higher health or bring their full benefit upfront). Going for another T1 talent wont change the fact that other abilities (which are not optional) are still crappy for the same reason.

If you don't like totems, there's a simple solution; play another class. Plenty of us like totems. There's nothing wrong with the mechanic, and you not LIKING it just means you should pick another class.

When I look at a warrior's talents, I see talent tier after talent tier of abilities which would perfectly work (all three abilities) for both pve and pvp (while partly being more a situational thingy in pve (but isn't that the case for most mop talents anyways?)). It seems for others it is possible to give options, for shamans it is fine to have pve/p only talents though.

Same is true for Shaman, you just refuse to see it because you don't like the class and for some reason can't accept that.

Plenty of the Warrior talents are poor for PvE/PvP. Warbringer is almost PvP-only; most mobs in raids are immune to the knockdown/stun. Just as a for-instance. There's no qualitative difference in that regard, you're just making it up.