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  1. #1

    WW cleave damage is 70% of average

    Using the data from raidbots 10 man, top 100 parses on stone guards fight (Pretty sure 25 includes LFR which is not a cleave fight, but an aoe zerg fest)

    If you remove specs that aren't ideal and have alternatives (such as sub rogue, frost mage etc., but keeping both druid and shammy dps specs):

    Average dps: 104.5k
    WW dps: 75.2k (71% of average)

    Thats not anywhere close to a delta of 5-10%.

    Even if you take out the cleave masters (mage and rogue):
    Average dps 99.3k
    WW: 75% of average

    That is not viable in any raid environment.

  2. #2
    Why are we using this fight as an example? You've already yourself explained why it is an awful one to use as a comparison.

  3. #3
    10 man stone guard is still being done as a cleave fight (from my understanding its only 25 LFR where people just aoe like crazy).

  4. #4
    You always have 2 targets on that fight. On something like that, yes, Combat Rogues and Dot cleavers will devastate.
    Same for Will and Dot cleavers in general. You are essentially going into their element, and expecting to beat them.
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  5. #5
    Without a true cleave effect (who honestly counts FoF as a real cleave with a 25s cooldown?), you're going to do considerably less damage than someone who can cleave every few seconds.

  6. #6
    FoF should not be used as cleave its damage is split anything over 4 targets its not worth using just spend chi on tiger palm RSK zen Sphere (if you have it) xuen on CD and spam spinning crane kick(4+ targets). Anything under that i dont think its worth trying to cleave/aoe.

  7. #7
    Herald of the Titans Nikkaszal's Avatar
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    Errrr you shouldn't be spending Chi on Zen Sphere or any of the lvl 30 talents unless you really really need to trade off some damage for healing. Because all of them are comparatively bad damage-per-chi.

    On fights like Stone Guard, where the HP is split, FoF will still be worth it because you're essentially doing exactly the same damage as if it was single target because WW's really have zero "cleave".
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Stuffs View Post
    You always have 2 targets on that fight. On something like that, yes, Combat Rogues and Dot cleavers will devastate.
    Same for Will and Dot cleavers in general. You are essentially going into their element, and expecting to beat them.
    If cleave is rogue/warrior/ret niche and dot cleave is warlock/spriest/boomkin niche, what is our niche?

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by shappo View Post
    FoF should not be used as cleave its damage is split anything over 4 targets its not worth using just spend chi on tiger palm RSK zen Sphere (if you have it) xuen on CD and spam spinning crane kick(4+ targets). Anything under that i dont think its worth trying to cleave/aoe.
    To be honest you could almost change your post to be FoF should not be used. There are countless scenarios where it is a DPS loss. It isn't exactly on par with an instant cleave when you are factoring in RSK not coming off cooldown and energy not capping whilst using it. Not to mention the target(s) moving or you having to move due to "fire".
    Last edited by bobty; 2012-10-20 at 10:52 PM. Reason: typo

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by bobty View Post
    To be honest you could almost change your post to be FoF should not be used. There are countless scenarios where it is a DPS loss. It isn't exactly on par with an instant cleave when you are factoring in RSK not coming off cooldown and energy not capping whilst using it. Not to mention the target(s) moving or you having to move due to "fire".
    Ye probably i have a tell me when icon setup for FoF with around 6 conditions not to use it. The spell is very restrictive and i think its only meant to be around 2% over all DPS gain.[COLOR="red"]
    Last edited by shappo; 2012-10-20 at 11:11 PM.

  11. #11
    Herald of the Titans Nikkaszal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobty View Post
    To be honest you could almost change your post to be FoF should not be used. There are countless scenarios where it is a DPS loss. It isn't exactly on par with an instant cleave when you are factoring in RSK not coming off cooldown and energy not capping whilst using it. Not to mention the target(s) moving or you having to move due to "fire".
    Well, yes, there's a lot of times you shouldnt use FoF. The idea of the ability is not to be balanced around something that must be hit every 25sec without fail, but by using it in a smart and convenient moment youll see a damage increase from your Chi investment.

    If FoF is ready and you know youve got a window to use it without fear, then go ahead and reap the reward. If its off cooldown and you know theres a mechanic that will require moving very shortly, then just hang onto it for a while until you find that window of opportunity. And if its a fight where you have to move around a lot, at random intervals, then maybe just leave it aside for that fight.

    Its a risk/reward move
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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Illitti View Post
    If cleave is rogue/warrior/ret niche and dot cleave is warlock/spriest/boomkin niche, what is our niche?
    AE, target swapping. Sure, I'd ~love~ it if they made FoF a real cleave, instead of splitting per target, but we do have our strengths.
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  13. #13
    Specs that do have a cleave usually have mediocre aoe anyways.

  14. #14
    Brewmaster Jess Day's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Illitti View Post
    If cleave is rogue/warrior/ret niche and dot cleave is warlock/spriest/boomkin niche, what is our niche?
    We can target swap with almost no damage loss instantaneously.

    Though on will you can out dps everyone if you get put on Rage duty.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Jess Day View Post
    We can target swap with almost no damage loss instantaneously.

    Though on will you can out dps everyone if you get put on Rage duty.
    Eh, dot cleavers will still probably beat you. Although we would definitely do good damage assuming you can do the strike dance appropriately.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Airwaves View Post
    Bows were made for tools of war. They go in the same pot as guns. There is ZERO reason to own a bow in 2014. Tools of war have no place in civilian homes.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Nikkaszal View Post
    Its a risk/reward move
    Unless I am mistaken isn't it shown to give a couple of percent DPS increase if used correctly? I do find it hard to tell though what makes the most difference as on fights where I am using FoF correctly as I am normally prioritising everything else correctly too(ie. playing well)

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by delus View Post
    Specs that do have a cleave usually have mediocre aoe anyways.
    Pretty sure warriors and rogues dont agree much with that.
    Anyways about that title. Ww doesnt have any cleave dmg without a cleave ability. So its single target dps vs. cleave.
    Everyone with 2 brain cells could see that already in beta but blizzard never listened to any responses.
    If they would have kept the cleave ability we had iam pretty sure it would have made the 30% difference.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-21 at 11:34 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by bobty View Post
    Unless I am mistaken isn't it shown to give a couple of percent DPS increase if used correctly? I do find it hard to tell though what makes the most difference as on fights where I am using FoF correctly as I am normally prioritising everything else correctly too(ie. playing well)
    The problem i have with FoF is: Used 100% correct its a minor dps increase. But making an error (and tbh its easy to make one with an ability that has so many "DO NOT USE" conditions) its a dps lose. So since i only do ww as offspec on spirit kings i never us it (spirit kings is esp a bad encounter for it imo)

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Stuffs View Post
    You always have 2 targets on that fight. On something like that, yes, Combat Rogues and Dot cleavers will devastate.
    Same for Will and Dot cleavers in general. You are essentially going into their element, and expecting to beat them.
    I don't have a problem being last on cleave fights. I do have a problem doing 30% less damage than AVERAGE.

    Blizzard has stated quite a few times that they are ok with particular classes being better at certain fights, as long as they are within a certain delta (~5-10%) of other classes. WW monk currently isn't playable on any progression fight that involves cleaving, which is a problem.

  19. #19
    Brewmaster Jess Day's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuffs View Post
    Eh, dot cleavers will still probably beat you. Although we would definitely do good damage assuming you can do the strike dance appropriately.
    Well last week i was AoEing Rages and swapping to boss during gas phase and got world 16th or something for that fight, damage would probably be higher on boss though, topped everyone in the raid including the lock/sp we had. And no they aren't bad.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-21 at 06:24 PM ----------

    WW monk currently isn't playable on any progression fight that involves cleaving, which is a problem.
    Well, yes it is. It very much is. While you can't cleave, your single target is very high, easily makes up for it.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Jess Day View Post
    Well, yes it is. It very much is. While you can't cleave, your single target is very high, easily makes up for it.
    I don't consider doing 70% of the damage an average class can do on a fight viable, sorry. And 70% is well outside the variation limits blizz claims they are striving for.

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