One thing Blizz forgets alot with rogues.

[Raldazzar]

We are the ONLY pure melee ingame. saying our pve dps is 'fine' is all well and good, until you realise, thats ALL we have. warriors can tank. dk's can tank, druids and monks can heal AND tank.. dps is ALL we have. we shouldnt BE fine. we ARE the masters of melee (or supposedly.)

which brings me to my next point, we are assassins. rogues, we hide in the shadows... we use poisons and bleed our opponents out whilst smirking.. yet a feral out bleeds us. has equal stealth to us. (yeah, I said it. they should have lower stealth then a PURE)

there used to be a time when hybrids had worse dps then rogues, and lesser stealth because of this very fact, but now the balance has shifted, and I think its high time blizz remembers these key things.

rogues are the utility guys in pvp. we do the big stuns etc. now everyone and their brother has the same if not more cc then us. we in pve, are there purely for dps. our communal buff is bought by several other 'higher' dps classes. every class has an interrupt now (ahh when kick was 'required' in raids...)

I love my rogue, I have done for years, even after going warr in MoP.. fully geared for pve as tank, and dps, and full honor gear.. i have still gone straight back to my rogue

Please, give me back the rogue I love. I fear some people will take this as 'make me op' but well, you are stupid. I dont want to be op. I want to be the top dog when it comes to melee engagements. when it comes to stun battles. and especially when it comes to stealth.

[Deleted]

And now here we have this person who really, really enjoys playing his Feral Druid. He doesn't like tanking, he's not good at healing, and casters just don't interest him. He simply adores his kitty. And now because of some whining Rogue he suddenly isn't allowed to be competitive anymore because his class can fit all kinds of specs.

People told me this same thing when I mained a Death Knight. People told me I wasn't allowed to top Rogues because I was a hybrid who was able to tank as well. The only class I was allowed to compete with was a Warrior.

I'm sorry but this is bullcrap. It's never going to be 100% balanced but it shouldn't be a written rule that Rogues always have to be the top melee. And let's face it, we have pretty much always been one of the if not the top melee. While I don't agree with Druids getting a 1 minute cooldown mini-Vanish and such I honestly have no problems competing with a Feral or any other class in the game for that matter. DPSers should be compared to other DPSers. Not ''which class has the least different roles he/she can fill''.

Stealth is something that went too far on both sides in my opinion. A Rogue should be able to stealth mid-fight and utilize openers within reason. A Feral (or Hunter for that matter) should be able to stealth once at the start and not have any strong openers.

But that is just my opinion. If I main a class who happens to be able to have a different role in a different spec, I shouldn't feel the need to feel weak or become weaker because of that. If that is ever going to be the case no one would bring non-Rogue melee to raids. On the flipside I do believe we should be getting some more important utility right now. As it stands, there isn't really a reason to bring a Rogue to a 10 man raid.

[eijin]

On the pve side of it, your train of thought left a while back (like.. BC days?). At one point in time there was a "hybrid tax" where those who could only DPS did better DPS, while those who could do more had added utility. It isnt that bliz forgets it, its that they disagree with you.

The way i see how it should work, is its clear diffrent fights call for diffrent types of dps, diffrent tricks, diffrent ways of going at it. This should be where a pure DPS has an advantage. A feral druid (historically) cant do as well when they cant get behind the target, some specs suck at switching targets, some specs lack burst, some have burst but lower sustained, sometimes you need mobility, sometimes you need to cover your face. A pure DPS should have diffrent specs to shine in these diffrent situations. Right now we somewhat have this (about half the fights in the new dungeon favor combat, about half favor mut. probably more than half mut honestly), i just wish some of our toys worked more like they did in wrath/cata. Things like invis-immuning putricide's gas, killing spreeing through a stun, cloak working on more than 1 thing in all of MV -.-;.

of course, this is just my oppinion.

[Wikko]

Give me one reason to bring a rogue to raid if there are other classes that can do everything a rogue can and more.

[Sesshou]

I do agree with your main point. If you ignore everything except stand still dps, we are most likely fine. However, utility is an extremely important factor which we have a lot less of than most of the specs doing around the same or more dps. I mean even cloak is now second rate to the monk version as the monk version apparently can remove quite a few effects that cloak will not (granted I don't think they can immune stuff). Now, I don't necessarily care if feral bleeds are better or their stealth is equal (though the hunter stealth situation annoys me greatly), but I do care that they bring an insane amount of utility compared to us and their damage is still on par (if not slightly higher).

And now here we have this person who really, really enjoys playing his Feral Druid. He doesn't like tanking, he's not good at healing, and casters just don't interest him. He simply adores his kitty. And now because of some whining Rogue he suddenly isn't allowed to be competitive anymore because his class can fit all kinds of specs.

Problem is that they do all that from feral spec (or they're bad). You get decent raid heals you can toss out at a 0 dps loss (in fact I hear the talent that gives you dps gain from doing so is situationally higher dps than the other options anyway). You can off tank stuff with cooldowns. You can spec to be able to heal incredibly well for a specific point in a fight. If you are just sitting in cat form and not healing or tanking anything ever, you are a horrible feral druid. So yeah, there should be a dps difference between some one that offers that (not even talking about changing specs here) and some one that offers what we do.

[korsic]

You're proposing the hybrid tax, they got rid of that long ago for good reason.

But I do agree with Bovan.

As it stands, there isn't really a reason to bring a Rogue to a 10 man raid.

I leveled my rogue to 90 first, raided one week then leveled my mage and haven't looked back. It really seems that anything my rogue could do, my mage could do better in a raid.

[Valium104]

You are the best melee DPS in this tier and yet you whine? WTF?! http://wow.joystiq.com/2012/10/17/en...he-melee-pack/

[eijin]

Give me one reason to bring a rogue to raid if there are other classes that can do everything a rogue can and more.

Because we are one of the better DPS, we are easier to gear up (if youre a progression guild this will likely be a consern), we have amazing survivability.

Vital to the raid? heck no, but we are more than capible of holding our spot.

[korsic]

You are the best melee DPS in this tier and yet you whine? WTF?! http://wow.joystiq.com/2012/10/17/en...he-melee-pack/

Heh. If you actually read the article you quoted, it says almost exactly what all rogues are saying: Numbers are fine, we're boring as dirt.

---------- Post added 2012-10-21 at 01:45 PM ----------

Because we are one of the better DPS, we are easier to gear up (if youre a progression guild this will likely be a consern), we have amazing survivability.

Vital to the raid? heck no, but we are more than capible of holding our spot.

Our OT is a brewmaster. I wouldn't be seeing gear on my rogue for a long time.

[Snakez]

No longer a special snowflake? D:

[Deleted]

Problem is that they do all that from feral spec (or they're bad). You get decent raid heals you can toss out at a 0 dps loss (in fact I hear the talent that gives you dps gain from doing so is situationally higher dps than the other options anyway). You can off tank stuff with cooldowns. You can spec to be able to heal incredibly well for a specific point in a fight. If you are just sitting in cat form and not healing or tanking anything ever, you are a horrible feral druid. So yeah, there should be a dps difference between some one that offers that (not even talking about changing specs here) and some one that offers what we do.

I agree, while I'm in favor of pure classes getting more important and significant utility I do feel Druids should be an exception. Druids are the jack of all trades, they are allowed to do extra things in my opinion albeit at the cost of DPS which admittedly isn't the case right now.

However I'm standing by my point. I'm an ex-Feral Druid* which I mained for years and only quit because they got changed in a way I don't agree with in Cataclysm and I have never once felt ''worth less'' than a Rogue in terms of DPS. Now I'm actually maining a Rogue I'm very happy to see Rogues and Ferals being competitive. But if this ''Rogues are a pure melee so they should get a free pass to the top'' or ''Druids can fit all roles so they are altered to be weaker than pures'' was the case when I mained my Feral I would have quit the moment I reached level 80. No reason to min/max or raid on a insignificant class or knowing you are never going to be good. If this was still the case, no one would bring anything other than Rogues, Hunters and Mages to a raid with whichever healers and tanks have the least offspecs. You can't just tell the people who just happen to have different role offspecs that they are now less significant compared to pures just because they like a certain playstyle or class more.

*Quickly going to mention that despite me being an ex-Feral I'm not being biased towards anything or anyone. This is simply the case I have the most experience with.

[Moxi]

You are the best melee DPS in this tier and yet you whine? WTF?! http://wow.joystiq.com/2012/10/17/en...he-melee-pack/

cool chart from a cleave fight
Read into the article more and see that it explains how boring a bunch of small, unreactive numbers are.

[Sesshou]

I agree, while I'm in favor of pure classes getting more important and significant utility I do feel Druids should be an exception. Druids are the jack of all trades, they are allowed to do extra things in my opinion albeit at the cost of DPS which admittedly isn't the case right now.

However I'm standing by my point. I'm an ex-Feral Druid* which I mained for years and only quit because they got changed in a way I don't agree with in Cataclysm and I have never once felt ''worth less'' than a Rogue in terms of DPS. Now I'm actually maining a Rogue I'm very happy to see Rogues and Ferals being competitive. But if this ''Rogues are a pure melee so they should get a free pass to the top'' or ''Druids can fit all roles so they are altered to be weaker than pures'' was the case when I mained my Feral I would have quit the moment I reached level 80. No reason to min/max or raid on a insignificant class or knowing you are never going to be good. If this was still the case, no one would bring anything other than Rogues, Hunters and Mages to a raid with whichever healers and tanks have the least offspecs. You can't just tell the people who just happen to have different role offspecs that they are now less significant compared to pures just because they like a certain playstyle or class more.

*Quickly going to mention that despite me being an ex-Feral I'm not being biased towards anything or anyone. This is simply the case I have the most experience with.

You never raided in vanilla or BC did you? Or did you just forget? Ignoring vanilla where for the most part each class only had one viable spec... You took shadow priests, ele shaman, enh shaman, and other hybrids despite the fact that their dps was lower. Why in the hell do you think no one would ever bring some one with less dps when they clearly did. If you offer enough utility, you will be brought anyway. A good enhance shaman that could totem twist in BC was probably your most important melee dps and any raid that refused to take (a good) one was retarded. Go look for some of the world first t5, 6, or sunwell kills and I guarantee you they had hybrids in there despite their dps being lower.

Now they changed that model, but it doesn't mean the old model made lower dps hybrids useless. They also failed to equalize utility when they equalized dps.

And again, all those things you say you didn't want to do are now part of feral spec so either you are doing them anyway or you're bad.

[Linneth]

We've shifted from Ferals being a Rogue-wannabe to Ferals having everything a Rogue has (bar Smokebomb) while keeping their shiny magical tricks for being Druids. THIS annoys me.

I think that the Hybrid Tax is uncalled for; pures, as I see them, should be meta-DD; they make as much damage as an hybrid would do, but they have gimmicks or mechanics that allow them to shine under specific scenarios. An example of this would be Combat's Cleave damage or Warrior's (yes, they aren't pures and as such this would go away in this case) Glyph of Rude Interruption.

[Deleted]

You never raided in vanilla or BC did you? Or did you just forget? Ignoring vanilla where for the most part each class only had one viable spec... You took shadow priests, ele shaman, enh shaman, and other hybrids despite the fact that their dps was lower. Why in the hell do you think no one would ever bring some one with less dps when they clearly did. If you offer enough utility, you will be brought anyway. A good enhance shaman that could totem twist in BC was probably your most important melee dps and any raid that refused to take (a good) one was retarded. Go look for some of the world first t5, 6, or sunwell kills and I guarantee you they had hybrids in there despite their dps being lower.

Now they changed that model, but it doesn't mean the old model made lower dps hybrids useless. They also failed to equalize utility when they equalized dps.

And again, all those things you say you didn't want to do are now part of feral spec so either you are doing them anyway or you're bad.

No I didn't raid in Vanilla or TBC. I honestly have no idea how the situation was back then, although I did hear a lot of stories about Paladins just standing around and rotating buffs and Shamans just being there to drop totems.

Vanilla and TBC are both very far away and I don't think it's fair to compare an evolving game to what it used to be a long time ago. At the moment you bring a DPSer to DPS. You don't bring a Rogue just so he can stand in fire with Cloak of Shadows, or a Shadow Priest just so he can buff everyone with stamina. Right now you bring a Rogue to DPS, you bring a Shadow Priest to DPS and a Frost Death Knight to DPS. And you can't suddenly turn around and say ''Oh guys by the way, you guys have the opportunity to heal or tank so we are now making you slightly less useful in raids'' without upsetting a large part of the playerbase.

Again I'm with you on the utility. Pure classes should bring extra important utility. Things like Cloak of Shadows don't impact a raid aside from a few very extreme cases and are only really there to help the Rogue himself. Now let's change this one way or another, what if Cloak of Shadows works on everyone within 15 yards? That would be a nice bit of utility we as a pure class deserve. Of course this is just a silly example I just pulled up out of nowhere without thinking about what effects it has, but you get my point.

EDIT:
Linneth just said exactly what I think about this as well. Keep DPS equal, give raids a reason to bring pures in the form of utility. Druids at the moment bring too much more compared to a Rogue.

Currently I'm wondering why my raid brings me every night. While I'm topping the meters I'm also causing more strain on the healers by not being able to dip in and out of Elegon's field as easily as a ranged for example. I'm taking more damage and I'm the reason ranged has to move to me on the Stone Guards during the chains for example. I don't see why they just don't get another Hunter or something in my place. But that's more a complaint about T14's raids I guess.

[Lilfrier]

For the record: Hunters are pure DPS and no better-off (and perhaps worse-off) than Rogues when it comes to DPS. Penalizing a Druid or Warrior for wanting to be DPS when they can tank and/or heal is unfair. If you take that route, you are essentially REQUIRING that raids be stacked with pure DPS and/or for classes that can fill other roles to take the tank or heal role.

Priests and Shamen can heal, but not tank. Warriors and Death Knights can tank, but not heal. Druids, Paladins, and Monks can tank AND heal. Does that mean Priests and Shamen should be the best healers, Warriors and Death Knights should be the best tanks? Do you see what I'm getting at? You're either playing favorites with the DPS because of "THE NUMBERS," or you'd support the idea of nerfing the capabilities of hybrid classes because they can do multiple things. The problem there is that you make Druids, Paladins, and Monks bad at EVERYTHING in those cases, because you don't want them to be the best at anything, seeing as they have alternative roles. That breaks hybrid classes.

Instead, they just need to give pure DPS competitive damage AT ALL TIMES (there's not really a fight in Vaults where Hunters shine), and maybe offer a unique buff or something to make up for the lack of an off-spec that can be invaluable to a raid.

[sarasun]

You are the best melee DPS in this tier and yet you whine? WTF?! http://wow.joystiq.com/2012/10/17/en...he-melee-pack/

Edit: NVM, it's a month old. Forget this.

[Deleted]

Make rogues immune to boss AoE. Voila.

[Sesshou]

No I didn't raid in Vanilla or TBC. I honestly have no idea how the situation was back then, although I did hear a lot of stories about Paladins just standing around and rotating buffs and Shamans just being there to drop totems.

Vanilla and TBC are both very far away and I don't think it's fair to compare an evolving game to what it used to be a long time ago.

Snipped for length. Vanilla paladins did that, and they also were pretty much either holy or holy as were most hybrids which is why I ignored it and focused on BC. You were basically saying that a system where pure dps did substantially more dps than hybrids but nearly no utility and hybrids had immense utility was fundamentally flawed because no one would want hybrids. I was merely providing you an example from WoW to show that you are wrong. Other games such as Everquest also had low utility dps classes that were in very high demand.

And enh shaman in BC just standing around dropping totems was bad. At that point it would be a raid dps gain to drop him and give the melee a resto shaman for a resto wind fury totem. Their dps was lower sure, but not insignificant on something like Brutallus's insanely strict enrage timer. But one that could do their full dps while totem twisting air and windfury (in a way such that windfury never ever drops) was an incredible asset. Shadow priest dps was also a bit lower, but you definitely wanted them if you liked your casters having mana. All of the enhance shaman and spriests I raided with in BC enjoyed their class, were brought to raid, and contributed greatly by being there. How is that system flawed like what you were suggesting?

And I think you are misunderstanding my argument. I'm not talking about respecing as utility (though the ability to do that is certainly an asset). I'm talking about utility within their dps spec. I'm also not saying hybrids should necessarily do less dps. What I am saying is that utility has enough value to make a raid want you if it is high enough and therefore if the dps is roughly equivalent you need to make the utility roughly equivalent.

[sinsarah33]

I don't think its so much that other classes need a nerf, while I don't agree with the way raldazzar said it I do agree with the over statement. Rogues are weak right now and there's no two ways about it. Even if blizzard says we're fine, our single target dps in anything short of optimal situations is outstandingly low. Now I can also see blizzards point, that deeper into tier 14, probably somewhere in heart of fear, rogue will become very competitive, given that with real haste we can output a lot of damage. But that doesn't change the fact that for now we as a class are sub par and while some, like me, are lucky enough to be in guilds that are willing to wait for my damage output to increases, that doesn't mean everyone else is. I can't help but imagine how bad it would feel to get kicked from my raid group because on any fight other than stone guard my dps sits just a few thousand over the tanks. That doesn't seem fair.