What Needs to Change

[Elegiac]

(A little bit verbose, apologies in advance.)

I'm sure a lot of people know that Mages are not perfect at the moment, especially in the wake of the announced nerf to the Fire specialization. Below is a list of changes I believe Mages would benefit from. Feel free to comment, and pitch in suggestions of your own.

• First and foremost, the Deep Freeze issue. Frostjaw should be gotten rid of, and replaced with Deep Freeze in the talent tree. Additionally, Shatter needs to be removed as a baseline passive - the critical strike bonus can be rolled into Fingers of Frost and Brain Freeze to keep Frost viable.

• Arcane Charges need to be given their own resource bar rather than being made a debuff; this will emphasis the role of Charge management as well as prevent them from being cleared by Ice Block.

• There needs to be a way to make the Arcane rotation a little more bursty and not so back heavy in order to make the spec PvP viable. One method of doing this might be a glyph which makes Arcane Barrage refresh your stacks of Arcane Charge if cast at less than six stacks rather than clearing them. It's a tricky dilemma, but the concept is the same.

• Fire's rotation needs to be looked at, given that it's terribly hurrdurr at the moment. I suggest something along the lines of a passive that increases the damage and reduces the cast time of Frostfire bolt by a percentage every Fireball cast. This gives both a consistent source of increase as well as variety in the rotation.

• Ice Barrier needs to be made baseline, perhaps changing visually based on specialization, given the value of active mitigation and the fact that everyone is going to take it unless it is made utterly useless as a talent choice. A suggested replacement could be Illusion Mastery: Whenever you cast your Mirror Image spell you enter a state of Lesser Invisibility for 10 seconds. Again, it's not perfect, but just a suggestion.

• A glyph should be introduced that gives Frost Mages the ability to exchange their Water Elemental for increased damage, and giving them an ability that generates 2 charges of Fingers of Frost every 30 seconds, or something to that effect. Because while a Water Elemental can be cool, a lot of people despise it. If we wanted a pet, we'd roll a warlock.

• Finally, Spellsteal. It needs a cooldown, not a mana increase, and Glyph of Spellsteal either needs to be replaced or buffed to compensate.

[Nitros14]

I don't want another resource bar. Leave arcane charges alone.

Incidently I just arcane blasted a mob and ice blocked. It doesn't clear the debuff.

Arcane is never going to be useful at pvp until blink isn't locked out by being interrupted while casting arcane spells really. Really the whole design of the spec is around hardcasting while standing still. To be a pvp spec it needs a redesign from the ground up, not bandaid burst.



What arcane does need is a bit more thought and planning like it had in the past. In Burning Crusade there was mana management, no set rotation and trying to use as much arcane blast as possible without unrecoverably going out of mana. Now mana regenerates absurdly quickly and you basically have a set rotation staying at ~90%+ mana. Rune of power actively makes the spec less interesting. There has to be some reward for staying at higher stacks for longer but the mastery actively works against that. It's in a better place than in WOTLK where you just hit arcane blast four times and then missiles, but that isn't saying much.

[Elegiac]

I don't want another resource bar. Leave arcane charges alone.

Incidently I just arcane blasted a mob and ice blocked. It doesn't clear the debuff.

Arcane is never going to be useful at pvp until blink isn't locked out by being interrupted while casting arcane spells really. Really the whole design of the spec is around hardcasting while standing still. To be a pvp spec it needs a redesign from the ground up, not bandaid burst.

And I would prefer a UI shift for Arcane Charges given that it's counterintuitive for someone to debuff themselves to gain damage.

I was mistaken about the Charge being cleared by Ice Block, thank you.

It needs to be made viable, not a "pvp" spec.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Interesting changes but Arcane having another resource? No, bad enough tracking resources. If anything in Arcane needs to change is... not sure how it needed change. I'm more wondering why. I mean the Arcane Barrage aoe thing is nice but I thought Rotation wise Arcane was good. Fire..seemed all right at the time. I mean Mages IMO seemed to except maybe Frost which needed it anyways seemed to get changes unnecessarily like something was wrong.

But that's just my opinion. Your glyph idea I wouldn't be opposed to as it seems more on preference. Ice Barrier however...it DOES NOT need to be nerfed. Baseline...eh maybe. I like HAVE to use Ice Barrier all the time even in raids I try to keep it up 24/7.

[Imnick]

Forgive me if I am wrong but I don't think he was proposing adding a resource?
He was just suggesting a better means of display than a debuff for players using the standard UI.

[Elegiac]

Interesting changes but Arcane having another resource? No, bad enough tracking resources. If anything in Arcane needs to change is... not sure how it needed change. I'm more wondering why. I mean the Arcane Barrage aoe thing is nice but I thought Rotation wise Arcane was good. Fire..seemed all right at the time. I mean Mages IMO seemed to except maybe Frost which needed it anyways seemed to get changes unnecessarily like something was wrong.

But that's just my opinion. Your glyph idea I wouldn't be opposed to as it seems more on preference. Ice Barrier however...it DOES NOT need to be nerfed. Baseline...eh maybe. I like HAVE to use Ice Barrier all the time even in raids I try to keep it up 24/7.

It's not adding another resource, it's a UI change for the existing resource to make it more polished.

As Spectral said in another thread, active mitigation is just always preferable. Since nearly every mage and his dog is going to take it over the other two talents, making it baseline is a natural choice.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

It's not adding another resource, it's a UI change for the existing resource to make it more polished.

As Spectral said in another thread, active mitigation is just always preferable. Since nearly every mage and his dog is going to take it over the other two talents, making it baseline is a natural choice.

Well if there's a buff that tells us how many times we've stacked Arcane Blast or what not I'm fine with that.

[Eschatonin]

• Arcane Charges need to be given their own resource bar rather than being made a debuff; this will emphasis the role of Charge management as well as prevent them from being cleared by Ice Block.

While some good things can come of this, I think I would prefer to use something like Powerauras to see my stacks rather than a whole new addon. Though, Ice Block could just be made to not clear stacks, which would be a whole lot easier to impliment.

• A glyph should be introduced that gives Frost Mages the ability to exchange their Water Elemental for increased damage, and giving them an ability that generates 2 charges of Fingers of Frost every 30 seconds, or something to that effect. Because while a Water Elemental can be cool, a lot of people despise it. If we wanted a pet, we'd roll a warlock.

If you didn't want a pet, wouldn't you play one of the other 2 specs? Water Ele, when used correctly, is a huge boon - an interesting use of the mastery stat, dps on the move, and the ability to use an ability to increase your dps whenever you're casting at the time or not.
Also, competitive PvE locks are using Grimoire of Sacrifice, so no pet.

• There needs to be a way to make the Arcane rotation a little more bursty and not so back heavy in order to make the spec PvP viable

We already have 2 viable PvP specs for the same role (caster dps). How many other classes get this? The problem of having specs that are good at both pve and pvp, especially with todays talent system, is that you'll find that it would get nerfed somehow and it could ruin your experience in either PvE or PvP, or both will be incredibly powerful, and will end up being nerfed in both categories.

Every other point I more or less agree with. It's also a good thing that you're identifying problems and offering possible suggestions, which I would encourage all people to try and do.

[Soulstrike]

pretty damn sure they fixed the issue with iceblocking with Arcane power charges disappearing....need to test it when i get home......

ice barrier being baseline...hmmm not a bad idea

another one would be why cant they just get rid of blazing speed its so dumb talent.... just give us back improved blink >_>

oh and i dont get why crit scorch gives us heating up AND FOF but scorching as arcane doesnt have a chance to generate charge (more charge = more barrages in their face in pvp at least)

and finally buff arcane

[Elegiac]

While some good things can come of this, I think I would prefer to use something like Powerauras to see my stacks rather than a whole new addon. Though, Ice Block could just be made to not clear stacks, which would be a whole lot easier to impliment.

It's just a quality of life suggestion; Arcane Charge is a resource, why not give it a resource bar like Shadow Orbs, Holy Power, Eclipse, etc?

If you didn't want a pet, wouldn't you play one of the other 2 specs? Water Ele, when used correctly, is a huge boon - an interesting use of the mastery stat, dps on the move, and the ability to use an ability to increase your dps whenever you're casting at the time or not.
Also, competitive PvE locks are using Grimoire of Sacrifice, so no pet.

At least Warlocks have the option of getting rid of their pet. Is it too much to ask for this to be implemented for a spec in which a permanent Water Elemental was not present until relatively recently?

[Spectral]

First, I want to say I'm glad you made the thread so I didn't have to reply to each of the other threads we were in!

(A little bit verbose, apologies in advance.)

Preferred over some of the warblegarble here.

First and foremost, the Deep Freeze issue. Frostjaw should be gotten rid of, and replaced with Deep Freeze in the talent tree. Additionally, Shatter needs to be removed as a baseline passive - the critical strike bonus can be rolled into Fingers of Frost and Brain Freeze to keep Frost viable.

This seems like it'd make Deep Freeze the overwhelmingly best choice for Frost, but quite weak for everyone else. As it stands, playing Fire (just to be clear, I'm not a high end player, just messing around in BGs and duels and world PvP) I regularly use Frostjaw into DF. If there's something overpowered about that, it's probably the Shatter combo (as you mention) rather than the sheer level of control. I know some people would argue the other way around though, that the control is the problem rather than Shatter. Really though, my point is that it would be hard to justify Deep Freeze if the only way I could access it was with Frost Nova. Certainly, if this is the case, the CD on Deep Freeze should stay at 30 seconds.

Basically, I'm not sure what a non-clunky solution here is.

Arcane Charges need to be given their own resource bar rather than being made a debuff; this will emphasis the role of Charge management as well as prevent them from being cleared by Ice Block.

I agree, and I think we'll get there. There were so many systems being overhauled that I think this was more a triage issue than anything else. Warlocks simply needed this more than we did. Maybe this is wishful thinking on my part, but I think Blizzard knows that Arcane still just isn't what it needs to be.

There needs to be a way to make the Arcane rotation a little more bursty and not so back heavy in order to make the spec PvP viable. One method of doing this might be a glyph which makes Arcane Barrage refresh your stacks of Arcane Charge if cast at less than six stacks rather than clearing them. It's a tricky dilemma, but the concept is the same.

I like this and have a hard time seeing how it wouldn't be a good change.

Fire's rotation needs to be looked at, given that it's terribly hurrdurr at the moment. I suggest something along the lines of a passive that increases the damage and reduces the cast time of Frostfire bolt by a percentage every Fireball cast. This gives both a consistent source of increase as well as variety in the rotation.

That'd be pretty fun, although I'm not sure it fits thematically with Fire. I'd almost rather see them lose Frostfire Bolt and have something else that gets reduced in cast time in the fashion you mention. That's really just an aesthetic difference though. Some sort of twist on the Warlock Ember system might be good as well. I know they don't want things to overlap too much, but there's a long history of Destro and Fire having some similarities, and I don't think that's a bad thing. Pick your flavor of burning things - with or without pet!

Ice Barrier needs to be made baseline, perhaps changing visually based on specialization, given the value of active mitigation and the fact that everyone is going to take it unless it is made utterly useless as a talent choice. A suggested replacement could be Illusion Mastery: Whenever you cast your Mirror Image spell you enter a state of Lesser Invisibility for 10 seconds. Again, it's not perfect, but just a suggestion.

I have no opinion on a replacement talent, but I agree completely regarding Ice Barrier. We either need to be balanced for it baseline or have it scrapped entirely.

A glyph should be introduced that gives Frost Mages the ability to exchange their Water Elemental for increased damage, and giving them an ability that generates 2 charges of Fingers of Frost every 30 seconds, or something to that effect. Because while a Water Elemental can be cool, a lot of people despise it. If we wanted a pet, we'd roll a warlock.

I played a Warlock as a main in BC and again in ToC/ICC during Wrath. I didn't play a Warlock at all in Cata, for that simple reason - I don't like pets, I'm bad at using them, and they just feel clunky and awkward to me. I know some people love pets and I'm not knocking that at all, but I just plain despise having one. As such, I'm completely on board with this change.

Finally, Spellsteal. It needs a cooldown, not a mana increase, and Glyph of Spellsteal either needs to be replaced or buffed to compensate.

Indeed. I feel like Spellsteal's been being reworked in mana cost for as long as I can remember, and I can't really imagine what the logic is in trying to stop spamming by tinkering with mana rather than just putting a 6 or 8 second CD on it.

---------- Post added 2012-10-22 at 08:11 AM ----------

If you didn't want a pet, wouldn't you play one of the other 2 specs? Water Ele, when used correctly, is a huge boon - an interesting use of the mastery stat, dps on the move, and the ability to use an ability to increase your dps whenever you're casting at the time or not. Also, competitive PvE locks are using Grimoire of Sacrifice, so no pet.

Sure, I'm good with pets being an advantage for people that desire to use them and use them correctly. It'd just be nice to have the option of scrapping one while still playing Frost if someone desired. We have a good model for doing this in a balanced fashion with Warlocks, so I don't see a reason it can't be an option for Frost. I don't want to seem all foot stampy, but I just plain don't like have pets, but otherwise enjoy playing Frost.

[Deleted]

For Deep freeze & Shatter, the problem isn't with DF (a 5s stun) nor shatter but the combination of the 2 with the actual crit bonus to fire.
They have 2 options :

• returning shatter & DF to Frost only, with a anti-frost PVP incoming.
• reducing fire burst

They choose the second way by introducing a very little cooldown to pyroblast.
I'm still can see why they want to increase DF & RoF cooldown. Diminish return is here to exclude abuse, if I'm not wrong.

Frost specialisation is built around to thinks: shatter and water elemental. So removing it is just breaking the spec.
What is wanted: a more discreet pet without bugged sound.

My little opinion on your proposition:

• replacing Frostjaw by Deep Freeze. Good proposition, it will make this talents tiers like this : instant single target stun Vs casted AOE stun.
• removing Shatter. Not a good idea. I Have explain why just before and it will be a nerf while leveling (frost nova + main spell).
• making Arcane Charge as a resource. I'm not found of it. Arcane Charge isn't a resource because not only you accumulate it but because you pay it at a high cost (of mana)
• FFB included into Fire rotation. I'm not found of it. It will reduce the impact of a Pyro proc.
• Ice Barrier baseline. Not a good idea. It have a purpose like the other 2 talents.
• a Glyph to remove Water Elemental. Not a good idea. Having a permanent pet and having it interacting more with the spec is/was one of the first demand from frost mage.
• Spellsteal. Just add a debuff like from Arcane blast that increase it's mana cost after each consecutive use.

What is more important than all of this: some change to the level 90's talent to improve there gameplay.

[Elegiac]

This seems like it'd make Deep Freeze the overwhelmingly best choice for Frost, but quite weak for everyone else. As it stands, playing Fire (just to be clear, I'm not a high end player, just messing around in BGs and duels and world PvP) I regularly use Frostjaw into DF. If there's something overpowered about that, it's probably the Shatter combo (as you mention) rather than the sheer level of control. I know some people would argue the other way around though, that the control is the problem rather than Shatter. Really though, my point is that it would be hard to justify Deep Freeze if the only way I could access it was with Frost Nova. Certainly, if this is the case, the CD on Deep Freeze should stay at 30 seconds.

Of course, I'm not suggesting any hard numbers here. But it is a viable solution; perhaps making the spell useable if you consume a Heating Up proc or a charge of Arcane Missiles? Either that or don't require targets to be frozen to use Deep Freeze.

---------- Post added 2012-10-22 at 03:18 PM ----------

Frost specialisation is built around to thinks: shatter and water elemental. So removing it is just breaking the spec.

The suggestion was to replace Shatter's mechanics by rolling them into existing procs for Frost. So Fingers of Frost would cause your next Ice Lance to behave as if the target was Frozen, and will always critically strike. Similarly, Brain Freeze would simply guarantee a critical strike for Frostfire Bolt.

In addition to fixing the Deep Freeze issue, it would also help to deliniate Frost's control from its burst.

[*]FFB included into Fire rotation. I'm not found of it. It will reduce the impact of a Pyro proc.

The jist of that post was that Fire's rotation needs modification.

[*]Ice Barrier baseline. Not a good idea. It have a purpose like the other 2 talents.

Except, as Spectral and I have said, active mitigation will always be stronger than the other two talents, and unless it is nerfed into the ground Ice Barrier will be the talent of choice. Making it baseline would both help to make Temporal Shield and Blazing Speed more attractive options as well as opening up a talent spot without sacrificing survivability.

[*]a Glyph to remove Water Elemental. Not a good idea. Having a permanent pet and having it interacting more with the spec is/was one of the first demand from frost mage.

The Water Elemental was not a permanent pet option until mid-wrath, and even then when it first came out having the pet came at the cost of Freeze.

I'm not saying remove it, I'm saying give Mages an option to play without it without sacrificing damage, like Grimoire of Sacrifice for Warlocks.

[*]Spellsteal. Just add a debuff like from Arcane blast that increase it's mana cost after each consecutive use.

Why? It's overcomplicating matters; just tack a cooldown onto it like every other dispel.

[Meillassoux]

Personally I find the Arcane Charges as a debuff something that should have been fixed alot time ago. It should be clear by now that the charges are something useful for the mage even while having the mana drawbacks. It's awkward still having it as a debuff. So yeah I believe a new mechanic should be introduced about not just the charges but for arcane as a whole followed maybe by some aesthetic improvements as well.

I also agree about the Ice Barrier. Right now it's not a choice. So it shouldn't be a talent, it's obvious. End of story.

As for the Water Elemental part, as it is now I find it boring. A new model should be added (together with a glyph that makes it look like it is now) and the option not to use it and having a damage buff in its place. Anyway frost is in a much better condition than the other two mages in this expa so I should stop complaining about this.

With the pyro changes Fire seems to me ... empty as a specc. Through the expansions the specc lost everything I liked about it. First it lost the crazy LV spread together with the infinite pyro procs with the blasts. Then they removed the dot-combust spreading and together with the Flamestrike CD fire's aoe became sad. Now with the Pyro cd they also removed the great feeling when everything goes well in RNG and you know you are going to destroy everything using it. So what's the point in this specc now? I dunno.

Generally I am disappointed with the class. I believe a revamp is needed in order to make it more interesting. So will I continue playing as a mage? Yes. Will I do it because I like the class? No , just because it is my main I play for years and became too attached for me to reroll.