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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    Not at all true, all the other classes have way more passive mitigation that requires no input.
    Every tank has the ability to trade survivability for damage. Breath of Fire is the monk's way of doing this.
    Yes it is true. Passive or active mitigation is irrelevant to this statement.

    Every tank has the. ability. to trade survivability for damage. Every tank CAN trade some of their survivability resource for some extra damage/threat. If they want to or the fight merits it.

    Do monks have a harder time keep up their active migitation while keeping aoe threat? (an entirely different question) Maybe.

  2. #42
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scarjack View Post
    In fact, I don't see how your solution solves the OP's issue. Why would anyone use 2 chi on BoF for a 3 sec shuffle when they can use the same 2 chi for RJW for a full duration shuffle? Again the point is to make BoF usable because its a fun and cool looking spell.
    Currently because RJW has a 45 sec CD? Otherwise yes we would just dump our Chi on that and KS/SCK in between.
    Quote Originally Posted by openair View Post
    Do monks have a harder time keep up their active migitation while keeping aoe threat? (an entirely different question) Maybe.
    I don't have AoE threat issues but the rotation is almost devoid of BoF which is what most of us want is an AoE rotation that can work in one of our coolest abilities without making our healers cry cause we let our defense buffs drop.
    Last edited by SurrealNight; 2012-10-25 at 06:30 PM.

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by SurrealNight View Post
    I don't have AoE threat issues but the rotation is almost devoid of BoF which is what most of us want is an AoE rotation that can work in one of our coolest abilities without making our healers cry cause we let our defense buffs drop.
    I never said issues keeping threat. I said harder time then other tanks. Even just having to switch targets more often then other tanks who use aoe to keep aoe threat fulfills that statement. But my point was that is the question the thread asks (whether it is just for looks or to use an aoe to keep aoe threat isn't clear in the op), while unholyground was out on a tangent ("an entirely different question").
    Last edited by openair; 2012-10-25 at 06:43 PM.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Scarjack View Post
    ***The damage numbers I'm about to use are made up for ease of explaining this.***
    RJW
    ABILITY
    CURRENT
    CHANGE
    LvL 90 Talent LvL 90 Talent
    AoE Frontal Cone Frontal Cone
    Damage 1000 2000
    CD 30sec None
    Cost 2 Chi 2 Chi
    Extra Shuffle None

    BoF
    ABILITY
    CURRENT
    CHANGE
    Learned Skill Learned Skill
    AoE Frontal Cone Frontal Cone
    Damage 2000 1000
    CD None 30sec
    Cost 2 Chi 2 Chi
    Extra None Shuffle


    The reasons for doing this are:

    1. Allowing us to use BoF, which is a cool and iconic ability.
    2. Frees up the lvl 90 tier, so taking RJW isn't more or less mandatory. Plus it adds further tough decision making to the tier by giving us the choice of:
    - a burst damage option/AoE (RJW)
    - a more sustained damage CD (Xuen)
    - a movement based/AoE option (Chi Torpedo)
    3. By allowing us a freer lvl 90 tier, we can use Xuen for avoidance, or Chi Torpedo for survivability or RJW for threat.

    We don't lose any abilities but we gain better access to lvl 90 talents while getting to use the coolest spell we have BoF. Win-win.
    I think you're making this about RJW more than it needs to be.

    Your argument is: BoF is an iconic ability, and we should have a reason to use it more often.

    A good example of an iconic ability is avenger's shield.

    Avenger's shield has an impressive visual that screams "Protection Paladin" It has a bit of a hefty cooldown, so it feels good when you get to use it, ocasionally, you get GC procs that reset the cooldown and cause it to grant a holy power.

    Perhaps all that needs to happen is that BoF needs to be cheaper, have a heftier cooldown, with a proc that makes it free for a little bit and resets the cooldown. You can't really use the argument "But it disorients!" because Avenger's shield silences (dazes too, when glyphed) hits 3 targets at 40 yards and costs next to nothing.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by blackblade View Post
    I think you're making this about RJW more than it needs to be.

    Your argument is: BoF is an iconic ability, and we should have a reason to use it more often.

    A good example of an iconic ability is avenger's shield.

    Avenger's shield has an impressive visual that screams "Protection Paladin" It has a bit of a hefty cooldown, so it feels good when you get to use it, ocasionally, you get GC procs that reset the cooldown and cause it to grant a holy power.

    Perhaps all that needs to happen is that BoF needs to be cheaper, have a heftier cooldown, with a proc that makes it free for a little bit and resets the cooldown. You can't really use the argument "But it disorients!" because Avenger's shield silences (dazes too, when glyphed) hits 3 targets at 40 yards and costs next to nothing.
    I'm trying to solve 2 problems at once.

    1. Get BoF into the rotation more. (I agree with Avenger's Shield, the single most viscerally satisfying button in the game.)
    2. Open up the 90 tree because RJW having shuffle is more or less mandatory for brews.

  6. #46
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scarjack View Post
    2. Open up the 90 tree because RJW having shuffle is more or less mandatory for brews.
    What boss fights is RJW mandatory? It's great in LFD (and raid trash I guess) but while raiding I'm using Xuen as you'll never use SCK for the 30% bonus so might as well just stick with BoK for shuffle.

    I think RJW is fine (but only useful for 3+ target situations) and BoF could use it as a model, let it proc shuffle and put a CD associated with it (45 sec is a little long but that can be open to debate).

    If there is anything wrong with our lvl 90 tree it's Chi Torpedo being such a lackluster choice but that is a separate thread.

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  7. #47
    Scarab Lord Unholyground's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by openair View Post
    Yes it is true. Passive or active mitigation is irrelevant to this statement.

    Every tank has the. ability. to trade survivability for damage. Every tank CAN trade some of their survivability resource for some extra damage/threat. If they want to or the fight merits it.

    Do monks have a harder time keep up their active migitation while keeping aoe threat? (an entirely different question) Maybe.
    They do, look at Blood dks, with their crazy parry, and their death strike, they have damage and mitigation rolled into one constantly used ability, not to mention with rolling blood they can spread diseases at no cost almost all the time and get aoe aggro with no effort because of it. monks passive avoidance is way too low for another ability not to generate at least a few seconds of shuffle that is not a required level 90 talent.
    “What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.”

    -Christopher Hitchens, 13 April 1949 – 15 December 2011

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by SurrealNight View Post
    What boss fights is RJW mandatory? It's great in LFD (and raid trash I guess) but while raiding I'm using Xuen as you'll never use SCK for the 30% bonus so might as well just stick with BoK for shuffle.

    I think RJW is fine (but only useful for 3+ target situations) and BoF could use it as a model, let it proc shuffle and put a CD associated with it (45 sec is a little long but that can be open to debate).

    If there is anything wrong with our lvl 90 tree it's Chi Torpedo but that is a separate thread.
    First, I think RJW's cd is 30 sec if I'm not mistaken.
    Secondly, if you make BoF do what RJW does with shuffle and all that, then there's no point for RJW. That's why the way I laid it out works, it gives us BoF and allows us to chose any of the 90 talents.

  9. #49
    I would rather have chi wave/zen sphere/chi burst give Shuffle over BoF.

  10. #50
    Scarab Lord Unholyground's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scarjack View Post
    First, I think RJW's cd is 30 sec if I'm not mistaken.
    Secondly, if you make BoF do what RJW does with shuffle and all that, then there's no point for RJW. That's why the way I laid it out works, it gives us BoF and allows us to chose any of the 90 talents.
    RJW should not be mandatory, it is stupid to assume that it is or for it to have been intended to be with their new talent philosophy. They could easily make it into an energy cost that generates 1 chi, maybe 60 energy?.
    “What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.”

    -Christopher Hitchens, 13 April 1949 – 15 December 2011

  11. #51
    I came here for an interesting nostalgic look back at the Breath of Fire game series.

    I was disappointed.

    *runs*

  12. #52
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scarjack View Post
    First, I think RJW's cd is 30 sec if I'm not mistaken.
    Secondly, if you make BoF do what RJW does with shuffle and all that, then there's no point for RJW. That's why the way I laid it out works, it gives us BoF and allows us to chose any of the 90 talents.
    Yeah it's still 30 sec either way feels like when your wanting to spam it in an AoE situation =P

    If RJW and BoF both had a reasonable CD (almost suggest BoF CD to line up with KS 8 sec) then you could do KS+BoF and RJW+SCK+SCK in an alternating fashion, seems like a very make sense rotation and synergies well as each power has a core ability that they benefit. Both chunks result in 2 Chi generated and 2 Chi spent and are meant to be used with the other. Right now you can do this but will most likely result in shuffle dropping if your spending your KS Chi on BoF.

    Even if you don't have RJW a KS+BoF+SCK+SCK+BoK set is still more exciting assuming we are keeping up Shuffle/Guard.

    In no way am I saying it should do more DPS than our current AoE levels which are already great, just think it makes things more fun for those situations.

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    They do, look at Blood dks, with their crazy parry, and their death strike, they have damage and mitigation rolled into one constantly used ability, not to mention with rolling blood they can spread diseases at no cost almost all the time and get aoe aggro with no effort because of it. monks passive avoidance is way too low for another ability not to generate at least a few seconds of shuffle that is not a required level 90 talent.
    DKs have more passive mitigation. Monks have more active. Yes. That isn't the question or arguement. DKs get dmg and mitigation from deathstrike. A single target ability. Monks get dmg and mitigation BOK. A single target ability. None of that invalidates the statement that:

    Every tank has the ability to trade survivability for damage. Breath of Fire is the monk's way of doing this.
    DK's can chose to spend deathrunes on heartstrikes (cleave) or blood boil (aoe) instead of deathstrike ("the ability to trade survivability for damage"). Warriors can heroic strike or cleave instead of shield block. Bears can Maul instead of Savage Defence. Monks can chose to spend chi on BoF instead of BOK.
    Last edited by openair; 2012-10-25 at 07:32 PM.

  14. #54
    Scarab Lord Unholyground's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by openair View Post
    DKs have more passive mitigation. Monks have more active. Yes. That isn't the question or arguement. DKs get dmg and mitigation from deathstrike. A single target ability. Monks get dmg and mitigation BOK. A single target ability. None of that invalidates the statement that:



    DK's can chose to spend deathrunes on heartstrikes (cleave) or blood boil (aoe) instead of deathstrike. Monks can chose to spend chi on BoF instead of BOK.
    They have a passive that makes blood boil free and have no cost at all, and if you have rolling blood it also spreads your diseases for free at no cost. All I am trying to say is that shuffle needs to be spread around to more spenders I don't think anyone will argue there. Maybe there should be a proc that gives us reduced chi costs for key abilities, that could also be an answer.
    “What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.”

    -Christopher Hitchens, 13 April 1949 – 15 December 2011

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    They have a passive that makes blood boil free and have no cost at all, and if you have rolling blood it also spreads your diseases for free at no cost. All I am trying to say is that shuffle needs to be spread around to more spenders I don't think anyone will argue there. Maybe there should be a proc that gives us reduced chi costs for key abilities, that could also be an answer.
    That is a proc.

  16. #56
    Scarab Lord Unholyground's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandrox View Post
    That is a proc.
    No shite, lol I am saying that we need one for tanking, or make other abilities cause shuffle that aren't 30 second cool-downs.
    “What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.”

    -Christopher Hitchens, 13 April 1949 – 15 December 2011

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by SurrealNight View Post
    Yeah it's still 30 sec either way feels like when your wanting to spam it in an AoE situation =P

    If RJW and BoF both had a reasonable CD (almost suggest BoF CD to line up with KS 8 sec) then you could do KS+BoF and RJW+SCK+SCK in an alternating fashion, seems like a very make sense rotation and synergies well as each power has a core ability that they benefit. Both chunks result in 2 Chi generated and 2 Chi spent and are meant to be used with the other. Right now you can do this but will most likely result in shuffle dropping if your spending your KS Chi on BoF.

    Even if you don't have RJW a KS+BoF+SCK+SCK+BoK set is still more exciting assuming we are keeping up Shuffle/Guard.

    In no way am I saying it should do more DPS than our current AoE levels which are already great, just think it makes things more fun for those situations.
    Basically on my chart I illustrate that I want BoF to do the damage and shuffle of RJW with the same cost & cd, while RJW does the damage of BoF (or more) with BoF's cd and cost but w/o shuffle.

    Basically swap the two, but keep RJW as a talent and BoF a skill.
    Last edited by Scarjack; 2012-10-25 at 08:16 PM.

  18. #58
    Legendary! Gallahadd's Avatar
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    I think the best way to get BoF, one of our most Iconic abilities, into combat more is to give us an Ultimatum/Grand Crusader/Crimson Scourge type proc.

    Something along the lines of "Whenever you Jab or Keg Smash you have an X% chance to make your next Breath of Fire free and cause the DoT regardless of Dizzying Haze"

    That way you still have the choice of trading BoF for BoK at the cost of Chi, and thus Shuffle, BUT you still get a chance to set shit on fire, which is boss.
    Reading A Song of Ice and Fire is like playing with an adorable puppy, then someone comes up out of nowhere, shoots the puppy and punches you in the face.

    Stands in front of 100 enemies with 10% health left "Myeh, I'll save my potions for when I REALLY need them." - every rpg player ever.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Scarjack View Post
    Basically on my chart I illustrate that I want BoF to do the damage and shuffle of RJW with the same cd, while RJW does the damage of BoF (or more) with breath of fires cd and cost but w/o shuffle.

    Basically swap the two, but keep RJW as a talent and BoF a skill.
    But that doesn't do anything. The reasons you want to use it in AoE situations are as follows, from most important to least important: a) it pops shuffle b) it bumps up the damage of your SCK. c) it deals damage to multiple targets.

    Getting rid of (a) would basically make it like BoF is now, except that it will help you do more damage than BoF, but it isn't necessary for threat. Its main use for a brewmaster is "Hey, I can bump up my AoE damage without sacrificing shuffle uptime once every 30 seconds." What you're suggesting is switch their roles to make BoF better but essentially have all brewmasters simply talent into Xuen. That doesn't seem like a good solution to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gallahadd View Post
    I think the best way to get BoF, one of our most Iconic abilities, into combat more is to give us an Ultimatum/Grand Crusader/Crimson Scourge type proc.

    Something along the lines of "Whenever you Jab or Keg Smash you have an X% chance to make your next Breath of Fire free and cause the DoT regardless of Dizzying Haze"

    That way you still have the choice of trading BoF for BoK at the cost of Chi, and thus Shuffle, BUT you still get a chance to set shit on fire, which is boss.
    That'd be acceptable to me, to be honest. One GCD (via a proc) is hell of a lot less of a sacrifice than 6 seconds of Shuffle

  20. #60
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scarjack View Post
    Basically swap the two, but keep RJW as a talent and BoF a skill.
    I get what you are suggesting now, I doubt Blizz would take that approach though they seem to view skills a bit to much individually to make a direct correlation and basically "swap" behavior between two. I can't think of any instance in the past where they have done something similar.

    Any changes that they would "actually" do need to revolve around BoF only.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    That'd be acceptable to me, to be honest. One GCD (via a proc) is hell of a lot less of a sacrifice than 6 seconds of Shuffle
    Based on what I just said I kind of like this idea to. BrM is one of the few classes I've played that doesn't have a 'proc' to manage I wouldn't mind it working that way and then we could potentially use it on single target fights just to look awesome.

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

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