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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by SurrealNight View Post
    If there is anything wrong with our lvl 90 tree it's Chi Torpedo being such a lackluster choice but that is a separate thread.
    It's free healing whenever you want to move. Generally if you want to move it's out of something. If you're in something to move out of, you're taking damage most likely.

    What sims show it as on patchwerk fights doesn't interest me because there are no patchwerk fights. If I'm tanking Stone Guard and on the one dog, both RJW AND Xuen are absolutely useless. Chi Torpedo is not as I'm either going to have to contend with Amethyst, Cobalt, or both at some point. That's just one example. Do you need to move this fight? Then Chi Torpedo has upside.

    Quote Originally Posted by SurrealNight View Post
    Any changes that they would "actually" do need to revolve around BoF only.

    Based on what I just said I kind of like this idea to. BrM is one of the few classes I've played that doesn't have a 'proc' to manage I wouldn't mind it working that way and then we could potentially use it on single target fights just to look awesome.
    Okay THIS I can get behind. Have a proc that triggers a free BoF. Have BoF tick for less but more often. Have the ticks capable of spawning GotO. Adjust GotO spawn rate to compensate.
    Last edited by Disgruntler; 2012-10-25 at 10:55 PM.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Disgruntler View Post
    It's free healing whenever you want to move. Generally if you want to move it's out of something. If you're in something to move out of, you're taking damage most likely.

    What sims show it as on patchwerk fights doesn't interest me because there are no patchwerk fights. If I'm tanking Stone Guard and on the one dog, both RJW AND Xuen are absolutely useless. Chi Torpedo is not as I'm either going to have to contend with Amethyst, Cobalt, or both at some point. That's just one example. Do you need to move this fight? Then Chi Torpedo has upside.
    For Stone Guards you're better off using Xuen. Even on Heroic, I moved my two doggies a total of about four to five times, and only by backpedaling. You don't want to move as much as a roll would, as you run out of space, and positioning afterwords would be somewhat awkward if you wanted to go forward again so that you minimize the amount of space you moved.

    Even assuming you DID roll five times... On a ten minute fight, five rolls and therefore, five heals from chi torpedo, is negligible. You're better off with the damage cooldown.

    The only fights where chi torpedo could be nice in MsV would be Will, where you only really roll when you aren't even taking damage in the first place, and Elegon, which again, you aren't taking damage when you need to move around.

    Unless a fight is regularly dealing damage to you while you have a need to move medium to far distances, then Chi Torpedo isn't very useful for us. We don't have the luxury of being able to move around willy-nilly. As tanks, we're supposed to stand perfectly still until a part of the encounter's mechanics demands us to move, and even then, as little as possible.
    Last edited by The Madgod; 2012-10-25 at 11:11 PM.

  3. #63
    On two doggies tho, i'd consider looking at RJW tho--cleaves have upside there.

    Consider, mind you. I'd want to look at the numbers and decide that way. But I was talking about being the -one dog- tank. How does a DPS cooldown help you against a mob you can't dps?

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Disgruntler View Post
    On two doggies tho, i'd consider looking at RJW tho--cleaves have upside there.

    Consider, mind you. I'd want to look at the numbers and decide that way. But I was talking about being the -one dog- tank. How does a DPS cooldown help you against a mob you can't dps?
    well the majority of RJW damage comes from the BoK bonus and with only two dogs, you wouldn't be generating chi with it, so there's no need to use BoK. As well, Xuen does have some cleave damage. At least for me and my interpretation, RJW is for mass AoE packs (5+), while Xuen is more for single target and small cleave packs (1-3).

    And if you're tanking one dog, you need to move less than the two dog tank. You just need to be in range of the two dog tank in order to be able to taunt.

  5. #65
    Xuen is capable of immense amounts of damage with vengeance, crackling tiger lightning with 2-3 targets is very strong. I personally don't believe there's another option for 90 talents for the raiding brewmaster atm.

    In respect to tanking one dog on stone guard, Xuen managed an (effective) DPS of 19000 and 62000 whilst up on our heroic kill this week. This is because despite the 90% damage reduction on the inactive dog he leaps to the other two dogs on taunt switch and will apply tiger lightning to them before running back to your new target.

    Tanking two dogs Xuen is easily worth 40k dps(140k+ whilst up) over the duration of the fight, you'd have to be batshit insane to pick anything else tbh.
    Last edited by Valsh; 2012-10-26 at 12:33 AM.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Disgruntler View Post
    Every tank has the ability to trade survivability for damage. Breath of Fire is the monk's way of doing this.

    Make BoF into survivability, then you have to nerf it's damage, and then institute a different way to trade survivability for damage.

    Is BoF failing to do its job?
    Problem is mate, BOF does really low dmg, infact it's not part of my rotation ever since I can use my chi to do far more damage, only in rare aoe situations would I ever use it.

    So if it is intended to do low dmg, at the very least it should provide some kind of utility.
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  7. #67
    I went brewmaster for the first time last night and decided to tank a few heroics, while the spec isn't 'hard' id definitely say it's clunky (compared to my level 90 blood DK at least). I wasn't really feeling the staggered debuff, I mean is there anything to track the damage it does? I was scrolling over the debuff to see the numbers before deciding to clear it, it's a weird mechanic to say the least.

    On top of the debuff management there's the uptime of shuffle to deal with while also taking care of chi and energy usage, it just felt like a lot of effort for something that's so easy on other classes. It's not a bad thing but as my monk is currently an alt I cant see myself putting so much effort in for little reward.

  8. #68
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    The only fights where chi torpedo could be nice in MsV would be Will, where you only really roll when you aren't even taking damage in the first place, and Elegon, which again, you aren't taking damage when you need to move around.
    I guess the first boss in Spirit Kings would be usefull since you have to stack up and I usually roll past him for the frontal cone? Even then it's such a long fight I'd rather get 3-4 Xuen procs instead.

    For raid tanks torpedo is neigh useless along with RJW because there are no 3 target tank fights. Xuen stays on my talent tree when I walk into MSV and doesn't change.
    Quote Originally Posted by Flimsy View Post
    I wasn't really feeling the staggered debuff, I mean is there anything to track the damage it does? I was scrolling over the debuff to see the numbers before deciding to clear it, it's a weird mechanic to say the least.
    Doing heroics you'll rarely if ever see Yellow+ doing LFD, even in raids most fights have very few instances of Yellow+ stagger. Personally I just use the WA that creates a green/yellow/red aura around me and clear it with PB at Yellow+. There are mods (just search through Monk list on curse) that go into more detail and I think Madgod mentions a few in the tanking sticky.

    The class does require a lot of work but with a good WA/UI setup and some practice it's fine. At first I was wondering if the effort would yield a bigger reward or not (like it could for DK's in Cata) and at this point I would have to say yes. We are by far one of the highest DPS tanks, our damage taken is in line, and we have so many little tricks and gimmicks on almost every MSV fight it really makes you smile by the end of the kill.
    Last edited by SurrealNight; 2012-10-26 at 03:14 PM.

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  9. #69
    I came to this thread thinking it was about Breath of Fire, the role playing game. Doh. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breath_of_Fire

  10. #70
    Scarab Lord Unholyground's Avatar
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    It looks like the issue is fixed, but they made another talent mandatory...oh well I guess.

    Ascension now also increases your maximum mana by 15%, and your energy regen by 15%.
    “What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.”

    -Christopher Hitchens, 13 April 1949 – 15 December 2011

  11. #71
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    Ascension now also increases your maximum mana by 15%, and your energy regen by 15%.
    Until someone does some numbers at different levels of haste I don't think that can be said yet.

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  12. #72
    Scarab Lord Unholyground's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SurrealNight View Post
    Until someone does some numbers at different levels of haste I don't think that can be said yet.
    well what is the base energy regen? is it 10 per second? if so with no haste your already sitting at 11.65 per second, I can probably assume most people in the higher item levels are 11.5 and above base so that brings us to about 13.25 in higher levels of gear so that isn't too bad, if anything its more of a buff for less geared tanks/dps monks.
    “What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.”

    -Christopher Hitchens, 13 April 1949 – 15 December 2011

  13. #73
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    well what is the base energy regen? is it 10 per second? if so with no haste your already sitting at 11.65 per second, I can probably assume most people in the higher item levels are 11.5 and above base so that brings us to about 13.25 in higher levels of gear so that isn't too bad, if anything its more of a buff for less geared tanks/dps monks.
    Based on those numbers the talent will generate 2.57 extra Chi per minute. (3.02 sec per jab vs 3.48 sec per jab)
    Power Strikes at 22 seconds is ~2.72 Chi per minute if used on ICD (so this value can fluctuate).
    Chi Brew = 2.67 Chi per minute if used on CD.

    With those numbers from a Chi standpoint it's not superior. The DPS boost and being able to bank 5 Chi may make it appealing situationally.
    Last edited by SurrealNight; 2012-10-26 at 08:52 PM. Reason: Fixed Ascension math

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  14. #74
    Base energy regen is 10, +10%(11) from Stance of the Sturdy Ox. With my 5.2k haste(Not a full haste reforge/gem, I still prefer to negate some parry with my expertise) I'm sitting at 12.34 regen in Ox stance, Ascension would bring me to 14.191 which is equates to a bonus 111 energy per minute from Ascension.

    I don't like power strikes so personally I'll be swapping to Ascension asap if it goes live as it is.

  15. #75
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valsh View Post
    Base energy regen is 10, +10%(11) from Stance of the Sturdy Ox. With my 5.2k haste(Not a full haste reforge/gem, I still prefer to negate some parry with my expertise) I'm sitting at 12.34 regen in Ox stance, Ascension would bring me to 14.191 which is equates to a bonus 111 energy per minute from Ascension.
    For you it would be 2.78 Chi per min so it looks like a superior choice with those haste numbers.

    I wouldn't mind being able to bank 3 Chi and have room to build 2 more to spend on abilities when banished for Gara, would let me always have ToD ready for the severer.

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

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