Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst
1
2
3
4
LastLast
  1. #21
    Everyone pretty much said everything here. Just gonna add this : at iLvl 478, I NEVER go oom (12K spirit raid buffed) so I'm very happy with that, and I do +60% overheal. That's just the way we work. I do a huge part of the global HPS at, most of the time over 22/23% (even if we are 6 healers). Keep faith, MW is a really good raid healing spec.

  2. #22
    overhealing = you are not slacking

    nothing more.

    As monk you MUST overheal because you MUST roll your HoT's.
    We are the new "druid".

    Make sure you overheal to get more mana tea stacks. Do not go nuts tho.

    Melee healing is not needed. Mostly just waste of time.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Tatuin View Post
    wau someone needs to come down from his clouds. Why spam an ability if its not nessesery? Whats the point? I find better use for my mana then spamming the shit out of an ability, i rather help dps on elegon with my mana then spam SCK cuz its good hps. But if you cant understand that then its not my problem. SCK have been going up and down on nerfs, if oyu was on beta you would now this. ALL MWs knew SCK would get nerfed at some point cuz it was way to OP.

    And no i havent just killed some few bosses on normal. I done more then that.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-23 at 10:51 PM ----------

    Iknow what im doing and im doing it fine. Im not a hardcore raider i never said im, im doing it my way and the way i find the most fun for me. Just as this game is all about. So get down from your clouds and stop beeing such a logwhore.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-23 at 11:20 PM ----------



    Here you say Fistweaving is kinda the way to go. and more if we get better gear, SCK is not fistweaving. So how do oyu really want it?

    It also seems you raid in a 25man guild (if that didnt stop raiding as your other guild you was in) Then yes SCK is awesome. But not on all fights in a 10man team. If ppl are spread out it wont hel you heal ppl futher away then 8yards and in 10man ppl can/will be more then 8 yards away
    I've done everything on 10 and 25.

    1st Boss - Raid probably not stacked enough for SCK most of the time. Definitely a Jab/Jab/Uplift boss.
    Feng - SCK is amazing basically all fight long and always better than Jab/Jab/Uplift
    Garjhal - SCK is amazing all fight long and always better than Jab/Jab/Uplift
    Spriit King - SCK is amazing for first boss, MC boss and any other time you move in to stack for the MC.
    Elagon - SCK is amazing in p1 and burn phase, which are the two difficult phases. Jab/Jab/Uplift is only good during the orb phases, in p3 you basically want to afk a bit for mana before SCK spamming when you stack all the adds up.
    Twin Emperors - SCK is amazing during gas phases and can be good in the rest of the phases if your raid stacks up enough. Jab/Jab/Uplift is complete shit on this fight so you need to cast soothing a bit to build chi.

    So yeah basically in MSV SCK/REM/Uplift is better than Jab/Jab/Uplift about 60-70% of the time and about 10% of the time neither are good.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-24 at 03:08 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by gifu View Post
    overhealing = you are not slacking

    nothing more.

    As monk you MUST overheal because you MUST roll your HoT's.
    We are the new "druid".

    Make sure you overheal to get more mana tea stacks. Do not go nuts tho.

    Melee healing is not needed. Mostly just waste of time.
    Pure melee healing is crap sure but there's plenty times you want to do in melee range to jab so you can uplift more.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Blasphemii View Post
    I can't believe there are still people out there who care about overhealing and think it means something.

    Overhealing is the most worthless stat in the game, it is completely without relevance to anything in World of Warcraft.

    All the matters is healing done and whether you had mana left at the end of the fight.

    If you're top of healing done with 95% overhealing and you had enough mana to do that, then you are playing well and doing your job as a healer.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-23 at 05:00 PM ----------



    This is the problem with MMO Champion. So much terrible advice from people who has no clue what they're doing. Fistweaving on Elagon is nowhere near as good as SCK/Uplift/REM for healing done regardless of any healing/damage buffs and the top logs 100% prove this.

    If only EJ wasn't a ghost town these days, they would ban people for posting garbage like this.
    Might be a ghost town since nothing useful ever gets posted there and even if you question the fuhrers there with math backed facts they go all apeshit on the posters that questions the fuhrer even when the fuhrer is wrong. That is how you become a ghost town of a site.

  5. #25
    Having Overheals is okay up to an extent, but blatantly saying that because you finished the fight with 95% overhealing and mana to spare is idiotic.

    Its common logic that a HoT based class is going to have Overhealing, especially MW, seeing as we have the choice of blanketing 65% of the raid with ReM before a burst phase with TFT, and then spamming uplift to put out some numbers, the anticipation up to that point will lead to excessive overhealing.

    However, people who spout the fact that because you can get away with SCK, ReM and Uplift spamming, it is the best way to heal based on the fact that the top parses in the WoL says so, are also wrong in a sense..

    Why? Well the game isn't so simple anymore, tanks dont just take damage anymore, they actively react to it with self heals or preemptive absorb spells or mitigation abiltiies on short cooldowns. DPS like ferals can throw out heals as part of their rotation on people dangerously low (wont do anything in the vast majority of the time, but its still something from another role of the holy trinity). So why is it that healers are set on the fact that just because they are a healer. that it is their sole job on a kill or an encounter? Healers may not have tanking capabilties, but they sure do have damage dealing ones, and the best healers will find a compromise within the limits of their mana to do both, whilst keeping the raid alive.

    How does this relate back to Overhealing? Well.. the mana you waste on excessive (over the regular amount of OH) overhealing, can be used to dps. A very good MW would have abut 30-40% overhealing through out a fight. However, there are people here who claim they are just as good as these MW monks, spewing the fact that they got a higher HPS but also about 60% overhealing..

    That 15% healing worth of mana can be used on dealing damage, and perhaps more actual healing (smart healing through eminence).

    Now finally, "my job is a healer, so i'll just heal"; this kind of mindset is often said by the people achieving or aiming for the highest HPS rankings on a fight. Why is it wrong? Well lets take a look at an example.. which is vastly simplified.

    -- 2 healers exist in this raid. Each one of them overheal for 50%. Now, in a perfect world, that is 50% healing wasted mana that could've been used on dps.

    Let's look at the compromise;

    -- 1 healer, 0% overheals, and 1 extra dps.

    Because the discrepancy of wasting mana when the healing was not needed is avoided, the raid as a whole gains an actual dps class, who offers to down the boss faster, cc more adds, all in all create more control over the fight.

    Now obviously, this is a gross simplification, but it just illustrates that overhealing past a due point in any Healing class, in this case MWs (with a high base OH rate) is detrimental to the raid, if you as a player are serious about minmaxing - and want to maximize your utility to the raid. Now most guilds won't sit their 6th healer, just because there is no need for him if the other 5 come closer to their respective base OH rates, however this is not an excuse for WoL jockeys to compete with their own healers to show a blatantly inflated HPS number, when that same resource could've been delegated to shortening the length of the fight (by dpsing).

    One core example of this? Paragon's Heroic Ragnaros kill. They had 4 healers on a fight that even 5 competent healers had extreme trouble over. So how did it work? well they werent so much as competing against each other (obviously) as they were maximizing their united limited resource pool (mana) into healing and letting a class more suited for dps take over the 5th healer spot,for the tight enrage. This automatically led to a low over heal rate, and a successful strategy to overcome an insanely difficult and tight encounter.

    All in all, Overhealing is an inevitability, but what most "hardcore" raiders (self-acclaimed apparently) don't realize is that their overhealing is what should set them apart from the other healers, assuming that pooled resource is used efficiently somewhere else.

  6. #26
    Tried Mistweaver in Mogu Vaults Normal mode yesterday, was oom rather fast but as far as i understood that will be better with higher ilvl gear (only have ilvl 460 on MW and 472 on BrM).

    Ah yeah had 50% overheal, used some fistweaving when the fight allowed it. Fistweaving is really interesting and should not be underestimated, just hope Blizzard will buff fistweaving a bit more (maybe higher autohit damage).

  7. #27
    I just spam renewing mist on Cool down with the glyph (it doubles the range but there is no minimum).

    Chi burst is the best, I had my doubt to but it is VERY good. It also has a very wide "hit", mine heals for 40-50k each, so with full chi it heals everyone in the path for 100k. Use chi brew to do a good 200k heal to everyone in a path within a few seconds, it's VERY good. Chi wave is too slow and zen sphere is just horrible.

    Otherwise just soothing mist , surging mist and enveloping if a tank is getting low.

    Also glyph of mana tea is essential, cuts down ALOT on just standing still doing nothing.

    I find NO use in jab healing, and no use in healing sphere. I never plant healing spheres after the fight begins.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Zonex View Post
    Having Overheals is okay up to an extent, but blatantly saying that because you finished the fight with 95% overhealing and mana to spare is idiotic.

    Its common logic that a HoT based class is going to have Overhealing, especially MW, seeing as we have the choice of blanketing 65% of the raid with ReM before a burst phase with TFT, and then spamming uplift to put out some numbers, the anticipation up to that point will lead to excessive overhealing.

    However, people who spout the fact that because you can get away with SCK, ReM and Uplift spamming, it is the best way to heal based on the fact that the top parses in the WoL says so, are also wrong in a sense..

    Why? Well the game isn't so simple anymore, tanks dont just take damage anymore, they actively react to it with self heals or preemptive absorb spells or mitigation abiltiies on short cooldowns. DPS like ferals can throw out heals as part of their rotation on people dangerously low (wont do anything in the vast majority of the time, but its still something from another role of the holy trinity). So why is it that healers are set on the fact that just because they are a healer. that it is their sole job on a kill or an encounter? Healers may not have tanking capabilties, but they sure do have damage dealing ones, and the best healers will find a compromise within the limits of their mana to do both, whilst keeping the raid alive.

    How does this relate back to Overhealing? Well.. the mana you waste on excessive (over the regular amount of OH) overhealing, can be used to dps. A very good MW would have abut 30-40% overhealing through out a fight. However, there are people here who claim they are just as good as these MW monks, spewing the fact that they got a higher HPS but also about 60% overhealing..

    That 15% healing worth of mana can be used on dealing damage, and perhaps more actual healing (smart healing through eminence).

    Now finally, "my job is a healer, so i'll just heal"; this kind of mindset is often said by the people achieving or aiming for the highest HPS rankings on a fight. Why is it wrong? Well lets take a look at an example.. which is vastly simplified.

    -- 2 healers exist in this raid. Each one of them overheal for 50%. Now, in a perfect world, that is 50% healing wasted mana that could've been used on dps.

    Let's look at the compromise;

    -- 1 healer, 0% overheals, and 1 extra dps.

    Because the discrepancy of wasting mana when the healing was not needed is avoided, the raid as a whole gains an actual dps class, who offers to down the boss faster, cc more adds, all in all create more control over the fight.

    Now obviously, this is a gross simplification, but it just illustrates that overhealing past a due point in any Healing class, in this case MWs (with a high base OH rate) is detrimental to the raid, if you as a player are serious about minmaxing - and want to maximize your utility to the raid. Now most guilds won't sit their 6th healer, just because there is no need for him if the other 5 come closer to their respective base OH rates, however this is not an excuse for WoL jockeys to compete with their own healers to show a blatantly inflated HPS number, when that same resource could've been delegated to shortening the length of the fight (by dpsing).

    One core example of this? Paragon's Heroic Ragnaros kill. They had 4 healers on a fight that even 5 competent healers had extreme trouble over. So how did it work? well they werent so much as competing against each other (obviously) as they were maximizing their united limited resource pool (mana) into healing and letting a class more suited for dps take over the 5th healer spot,for the tight enrage. This automatically led to a low over heal rate, and a successful strategy to overcome an insanely difficult and tight encounter.

    All in all, Overhealing is an inevitability, but what most "hardcore" raiders (self-acclaimed apparently) don't realize is that their overhealing is what should set them apart from the other healers, assuming that pooled resource is used efficiently somewhere else.
    Mistweaver dps is pathetic compared to the dps of an actual dps playewr. The only time we really do proper damage is aoe situations. The DPS we contribute for the small part of the fight we can get away with not healing contributes extremely little to the raid, not to mention that it burns a lot of mana to dps, mana we could be saving for when we actually do need to heal.

    We might contribute about 5k DPS per fight if we DPS during the down phases. What good is that when you have 18 DPS all doing 70-80k DPS each? It's a 0.39% raid DPS increase that burns your mana (which you 100% need on heroic modes), not worth it at all.



    ---------- Post added 2012-10-24 at 04:38 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalous View Post
    I just spam renewing mist on Cool down with the glyph (it doubles the range but there is no minimum).

    Chi burst is the best, I had my doubt to but it is VERY good. It also has a very wide "hit", mine heals for 40-50k each, so with full chi it heals everyone in the path for 100k. Use chi brew to do a good 200k heal to everyone in a path within a few seconds, it's VERY good. Chi wave is too slow and zen sphere is just horrible.

    Otherwise just soothing mist , surging mist and enveloping if a tank is getting low.

    Also glyph of mana tea is essential, cuts down ALOT on just standing still doing nothing.

    I find NO use in jab healing, and no use in healing sphere. I never plant healing spheres after the fight begins.
    Yeah, you're playing completely wrong.
    Last edited by Blasphemii; 2012-10-24 at 03:43 AM.

  9. #29
    Why do you say that? What am I doing wrong? I'm topping most healing charts! (But then again I'm not sure if my guild is the BEST)

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Blasphemii View Post
    Mistweaver dps is pathetic compared to the dps of an actual dps playewr. The only time we really do proper damage is aoe situations. The DPS we contribute for the small part of the fight we can get away with not healing contributes extremely little to the raid, not to mention that it burns a lot of mana to dps, mana we could be saving for when we actually do need to heal.

    We might contribute about 5k DPS per fight if we DPS during the down phases. What good is that when you have 18 DPS all doing 70-80k DPS each? It's a 0.39% raid DPS increase that burns your mana (which you 100% need on heroic modes), not worth it at all.
    You dont seem to grasp the concept I'm putting in my post. Fine, your DPS might not be worth it, that is mainly evaluated with your DPM (Damage per Mana). That doesnt excuse the fact that overhealing past the average overhealing capacity is a complete and utter waste of mana. If it wasnt clear in what i posted, say per fight, you waste 16.67% of your mana on overhealing, and say all 6 healers in your raid do this, if the pooled mana resource of the 6 healers is 600%, youve just wasted 100% mana, or in better terms, one healer, or yet ONE RAID SPOT, which can be filled by a DPS. (obvious simplification, as each class has their mana regen abilties, but think normalized mana usage)

    The same goes for if you end a fight with 120k mana or 1200 mana, at the end of the fight, you have wasted your resourse if you havent used it all.

    Now i dont actually know how good of a player you are, maybe you waste no mana, maybe you waste a lot, but the point of the matter is using your resource intelligently will always affect the raid. Reading from before, someone said they did 60% overhealing on a fight, to me that looks like wasted mana.

    Think of the opportunity cost of your mana usage, and you see that it will be indirectly related to dps one way or the other.

    You may think 0.39% of raid dps isnt worth a lot, but thats just your direct damage, you doing that damage has indirect properties such as smart healing (no Overhealing) as well as a faster killed boss(less damage = less healing = less mana).

    Everything you do has value, some choose to put it off as not being any help, or very little, but its all tied together, especially when there are 25 people in a raid, contributions from all 25 raiders of this caliber will yield a noticeable result in the end.
    Last edited by Zonex; 2012-10-24 at 04:43 AM.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Zonex View Post
    You dont seem to grasp the concept I'm putting in my post. Fine, your DPS might not be worth it, that is mainly evaluated with your DPM (Damage per Mana). That doesnt excuse the fact that overhealing past the average overhealing capacity is a complete and utter waste of mana. If it wasnt clear in what i posted, say per fight, you waste 16.67% of your mana on overhealing, and say all 6 healers in your raid do this, if the pooled mana resource of the 6 healers is 600%, youve just wasted 100% mana, or in better terms, one healer, or yet ONE RAID SPOT, which can be filled by a DPS. (obvious simplification, as each class has their mana regen abilties, but think normalized mana usage)

    The same goes for if you end a fight with 120k mana or 1200 mana, at the end of the fight, you have wasted your resourse if you havent used it all.

    Now i dont actually know how good of a player you are, maybe you waste no mana, maybe you waste a lot, but the point of the matter is using your resource intelligently will always affect the raid. Reading from before, someone said they did 60% overhealing on a fight, to me that looks like wasted mana.

    Think of the opportunity cost of your mana usage, and you see that it will be indirectly related to dps one way or the other.
    Ridiculous oversimplification as every fight isn't Twin Valkyr's (i.e a fight where damage remains static throughout). Most fights need 5-6 healers in the intense parts and 1-3 healers in the down phases. In the intense phases you're not capped by mana you're capped by GCD's. For example lets say Putricide Heroic. No matter how many healers saved a shit load of mana from not overhealing in the ooze phases, in that last phase you had to have 5-6 healers, because full mana on 3-4 healers would never ever cut it on the last phase.

    For example no matter how little you overheal in p1/2/3 of Elagon you're going to need 5 healers in the nuke phase at the end, because you're spamming your biggest HPS rotation regardless of mana cost. When I heal the last phase of Elagon I don't think to myself "I could do so much more if I had the mana", because I've got it, the only thing that would allow me to heal more is stronger spells or fasters casts. Neither of which are effected by overhealing earlier in the fight.

    Your point does not work at all in real raiding examples.

    You may think 0.39% of raid dps isnt worth a lot, but thats just your direct damage, you doing that damage has indirect properties such as smart healing (no Overhealing) as well as a faster killed boss(less damage = less healing = less mana).

    Everything you do has value, some choose to put it off as not being any help, or very little, but its all tied together, especially when there are 25 people in a raid, contributions from all 25 raiders of this caliber will yield a noticeable result in the end.
    Feel free to use examples in the current tier of fights with extremely tight enrages (hence they require your dps) where there is a sufficient lull in damage taken that allows you to put out such reduced healing output.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-24 at 06:04 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalous View Post
    Why do you say that? What am I doing wrong? I'm topping most healing charts! (But then again I'm not sure if my guild is the BEST)
    Soothing Mists does very, very little healing and builds Chi really slowly (and is really RNG about doing it too). It is a bad spell and should only be used when there is very, very little damage going out or if your raid isn't stacked and for some reason you can't stand in melee (basically Will of the Emperor is the only fight where this is the case).

    Soothing Mists is just a plain terrible spell that you shouldn't be casting.

    Your rotation should in almost all case involve using Renewing Mists on CD and spending your Chi on primarily Uplift but occasionally Chi Burst if for some reason you've failed on keep Renewing Mists up (which you shouldn't).

    To build Chi for Uplift you either use Jab or Spinning Crane Kick. Spinning Crane Kick is better but you need your raid to be stacked for it. SCK is especially good on 25 man but really good on 10 man too. I would say that on Feng, Elagon and Garajhal you will be mostly use SCK, on the first boss most jab and on Spirit Kings a mix of both depending which boss is active. Will of the Emperor you basically have to soothing mists especially in 10 man except for the gas phases where your raid should stack and you can use SCK.
    Last edited by Blasphemii; 2012-10-24 at 04:58 AM.

  12. #32
    I spam renewing mist on cooldown and uplift/chi burst...but a well aimed chi burst is usually better then an uplift. I only soothing mist when I need to spam surging and enveloping. Silly.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalous View Post
    I spam renewing mist on cooldown and uplift/chi burst...but a well aimed chi burst is usually better then an uplift. I only soothing mist when I need to spam surging and enveloping. Silly.
    So what do you do in the massive time gaps between Renewing Mist casts and getting 2 Chi for Chi Burst/Uplift?

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Blasphemii View Post
    Ridiculous oversimplification as every fight isn't Twin Valkyr's (i.e a fight where damage remains static throughout). Most fights need 5-6 healers in the intense parts and 1-3 healers in the down phases. In the intense phases you're not capped by mana you're capped by GCD's. For example lets say Putricide Heroic. No matter how many healers saved a shit load of mana from not overhealing in the ooze phases, in that last phase you had to have 5-6 healers, because full mana on 3-4 healers would never ever cut it on the last phase.

    For example no matter how little you overheal in p1/2/3 of Elagon you're going to need 5 healers in the nuke phase at the end, because you're spamming your biggest HPS rotation regardless of mana cost. When I heal the last phase of Elagon I don't think to myself "I could do so much more if I had the mana", because I've got it, the only thing that would allow me to heal more is stronger spells or fasters casts. Neither of which are effected by overhealing earlier in the fight.

    Your point does not work at all in real raiding examples.



    Feel free to use examples in the current tier of fights with extremely tight enrages (hence they require your dps) where there is a sufficient lull in damage taken that allows you to put out such reduced healing output.
    In this case, the issue then shifts to how healers nowadays prepare for a fight, most if not all healers gem and reforge for mana endurance (spirit instead of throughput, following the GCD capped burn phases, a stronger throughput would be much more useful as you seem to point out pooling mana before those phases isnt too much of an issue. And then we come to the same conclusion, if within the limits of player ability and skill execution, then gemming/reforging/gearing for throughput would trivialize the need for that 6th healer or a fraction of his/her needed marginal healing at that burst phase. If that same spot however is taken up by a dps, not only does it make is so your collective healing becomes more efficient (GCD capped assumed) but also shortens the time in which you are in that phase, thus needing less "burst" healing overall.

    For your example on elegon, it is true that his nuke phase is hard on the healers, in your case 5 healers, burn through say.. an effective 750kmana collectively (150k per) if what you say is true then, having more through put in extreme situations could mean that the same amount of healing can be achieved with only 600k mana because they are geared for throughput. but also they have to ollectively heal less because of the added dps on the boss (5th healer spot = DPS now).

    That is a gross simplification but it can be applied to the fight nonetheless, raid cooldowns can do a lot to soak up a lot of damage, coordinations between cooldown timers and say a BrM's (AH + ZM) raid cooldowns could make for a soother conclusion to a fight. Just because the non-healer roles arent healing doesn't mean they cant attribute to damage mitigation, which if you think about it are pretty much joined at the hip.

    Yea all this comes with an insane amount of responsibility on the healers' hands, but doing the hardest content often means doing it compromising not just for healers but for every player in the raid, they all have raid utility. None of the fights in MSV heroic expect this of a raid team (at least not to this extent) but as has been said by lots of people its still the earliest MoP raid, and the next raids are anticipated to be much tougher.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Blasphemii View Post
    Ridiculous oversimplification as every fight isn't Twin Valkyr's (i.e a fight where damage remains static throughout). Most fights need 5-6 healers in the intense parts and 1-3 healers in the down phases. In the intense phases you're not capped by mana you're capped by GCD's. For example lets say Putricide Heroic. No matter how many healers saved a shit load of mana from not overhealing in the ooze phases, in that last phase you had to have 5-6 healers, because full mana on 3-4 healers would never ever cut it on the last phase.

    For example no matter how little you overheal in p1/2/3 of Elagon you're going to need 5 healers in the nuke phase at the end, because you're spamming your biggest HPS rotation regardless of mana cost. When I heal the last phase of Elagon I don't think to myself "I could do so much more if I had the mana", because I've got it, the only thing that would allow me to heal more is stronger spells or fasters casts. Neither of which are effected by overhealing earlier in the fight.

    Your point does not work at all in real raiding examples.



    Feel free to use examples in the current tier of fights with extremely tight enrages (hence they require your dps) where there is a sufficient lull in damage taken that allows you to put out such reduced healing output.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-24 at 06:04 AM ----------



    Soothing Mists does very, very little healing and builds Chi really slowly (and is really RNG about doing it too). It is a bad spell and should only be used when there is very, very little damage going out or if your raid isn't stacked and for some reason you can't stand in melee (basically Will of the Emperor is the only fight where this is the case).

    Soothing Mists is just a plain terrible spell that you shouldn't be casting.

    Your rotation should in almost all case involve using Renewing Mists on CD and spending your Chi on primarily Uplift but occasionally Chi Burst if for some reason you've failed on keep Renewing Mists up (which you shouldn't).

    To build Chi for Uplift you either use Jab or Spinning Crane Kick. Spinning Crane Kick is better but you need your raid to be stacked for it. SCK is especially good on 25 man but really good on 10 man too. I would say that on Feng, Elagon and Garajhal you will be mostly use SCK, on the first boss most jab and on Spirit Kings a mix of both depending which boss is active. Will of the Emperor you basically have to soothing mists especially in 10 man except for the gas phases where your raid should stack and you can use SCK.
    What about heavy damage on Tank? Having Surging mist as instant cast looks good for me on damage spikes, still no good with the Serpents Accord passive?
    Also how about CJL? Saw some vids where people where using it as a melee heal when Jade serpent statue is near them (Eminence passive).

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Gungrir View Post
    What about heavy damage on Tank? Having Surging mist as instant cast looks good for me on damage spikes, still no good with the Serpents Accord passive?
    You shouldn't be assigned to tank healing. But if you are, yes, Soothing + Surging/Enveloping is the way to go.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Curt View Post
    You shouldn't be assigned to tank healing. But if you are, yes, Soothing + Surging/Enveloping is the way to go.
    I know and i am not really assigned to him but i will still help on Tank healing when i see him in the 10-20% range. Since Surging is instant and can heal him up for a high mana trade off, i know i should trust the other healers more but i can't help it.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Gungrir View Post
    What about heavy damage on Tank? Having Surging mist as instant cast looks good for me on damage spikes, still no good with the Serpents Accord passive?
    Also how about CJL? Saw some vids where people where using it as a melee heal when Jade serpent statue is near them (Eminence passive).
    Well you shouldn't ever be on tank healing as a Monk.

    But if for some reason you find yourself on a tank then you should cast Soothing Mists/Enveloping Mists and use Surging when RNG screws you over with Chi procs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zonex View Post
    In this case, the issue then shifts to how healers nowadays prepare for a fight, most if not all healers gem and reforge for mana endurance (spirit instead of throughput, following the GCD capped burn phases, a stronger throughput would be much more useful as you seem to point out pooling mana before those phases isnt too much of an issue. And then we come to the same conclusion, if within the limits of player ability and skill execution, then gemming/reforging/gearing for throughput would trivialize the need for that 6th healer or a fraction of his/her needed marginal healing at that burst phase. If that same spot however is taken up by a dps, not only does it make is so your collective healing becomes more efficient (GCD capped assumed) but also shortens the time in which you are in that phase, thus needing less "burst" healing overall.
    Even if all healers gemmed throughput (which they wouldn't because they'd OOM so in reality they'd need a balance at best instead of pure spirit) it wouldn't at all compensate for a lack of an entire healer. Intellect gems are nice but they're no substitute for an extra entire healer, especially in a 10 man (although I raid 25s.)

    For your example on elegon, it is true that his nuke phase is hard on the healers, in your case 5 healers, burn through say.. an effective 750kmana collectively (150k per) if what you say is true then, having more through put in extreme situations could mean that the same amount of healing can be achieved with only 600k mana because they are geared for throughput. but also they have to collectively heal less because of the added dps on the boss (5th healer spot = DPS now).
    A) Healing doesn't scale anything like as well with gear as you think. A 5th healer is 20% more healing done (plus extra CD's, mana or damage reduction). Not to mention you would never get away with full Int gems, you'd need to mix it in current gear levels.

    B) All healing specs will always overheal because so many spells are more efficient to use than not regardless of whether they overheal some of their targets. These spells include the really obvious candidates like Rejuv, REM, POH, COH, POM, Renew, Healing Rain but all the not smart/hot heals too. Even if you could cut overhealing raid wide by 20% (which is super unrealistic especially on Druids/Monks) that wouldn't save enough "theoretical mana" allowing you to intellect gem and 4 heal a 25 man. It's just not at all possible. Most fights requires 2 healers (Paladins) to just mindlessly spam the tank all fight just to keep your two tanks up (on the case of the first boss 3 healers). On the first boss you'd have one healer to heal the entire raid in a 4 heal setup. On Feng you would have 2 healers to heal the entire 25 man raid through Draw Flame. Not a chance on earth you can do that in current gear no matter what you're gemming.

    That is a gross simplification but it can be applied to the fight nonetheless, raid cooldowns can do a lot to soak up a lot of damage, coordinations between cooldown timers and say a BrM's (AH + ZM) raid cooldowns could make for a soother conclusion to a fight. Just because the non-healer roles arent healing doesn't mean they cant attribute to damage mitigation, which if you think about it are pretty much joined at the hip.
    And on WOE or Garajhal where the damage is constant? You can't always have CD's up.

    Yea all this comes with an insane amount of responsibility on the healers' hands, but doing the hardest content often means doing it compromising not just for healers but for every player in the raid, they all have raid utility. None of the fights in MSV heroic expect this of a raid team (at least not to this extent) but as has been said by lots of people its still the earliest MoP raid, and the next raids are anticipated to be much tougher.
    There have been very, very few fights in WoW History for the enrage was tight enough that you needed 4 healers but it was actually healable with 4. And even then we're talking individual top 10 guild only who did Ragnaros heroic with 4 healers, or Yogg0 with 4 healers. Not even you're run of the mill really good top 300 guild did that. It's just not a feesible way to play and never really has been for all the reasons I've listed.

    I repeat, 20% more spells casts and 20% more GCD's on the healing table are infinitely better than healers doing slightly stronger heals because they can gem throughput by not overhealing. As a Monk I can still only heal 8 or so targets at once (unless I have Tea up), as a Priest/Shaman/Pala it's even less. Stronger heals don't make me heal more people.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Blasphemii View Post
    Well you shouldn't ever be on tank healing as a Monk.

    But if for some reason you find yourself on a tank then you should cast Soothing Mists/Enveloping Mists and use Surging when RNG screws you over with Chi procs.



    Even if all healers gemmed throughput (which they wouldn't because they'd OOM so in reality they'd need a balance at best instead of pure spirit) it wouldn't at all compensate for a lack of an entire healer. Intellect gems are nice but they're no substitute for an extra entire healer, especially in a 10 man (although I raid 25s.)



    A) Healing doesn't scale anything like as well with gear as you think. A 5th healer is 20% more healing done (plus extra CD's, mana or damage reduction). Not to mention you would never get away with full Int gems, you'd need to mix it in current gear levels.

    B) All healing specs will always overheal because so many spells are more efficient to use than not regardless of whether they overheal some of their targets. These spells include the really obvious candidates like Rejuv, REM, POH, COH, POM, Renew, Healing Rain but all the not smart/hot heals too. Even if you could cut overhealing raid wide by 20% (which is super unrealistic especially on Druids/Monks) that wouldn't save enough "theoretical mana" allowing you to intellect gem and 4 heal a 25 man. It's just not at all possible. Most fights requires 2 healers (Paladins) to just mindlessly spam the tank all fight just to keep your two tanks up (on the case of the first boss 3 healers). On the first boss you'd have one healer to heal the entire raid in a 4 heal setup. On Feng you would have 2 healers to heal the entire 25 man raid through Draw Flame. Not a chance on earth you can do that in current gear no matter what you're gemming.



    And on WOE or Garajhal where the damage is constant? You can't always have CD's up.



    There have been very, very few fights in WoW History for the enrage was tight enough that you needed 4 healers but it was actually healable with 4. And even then we're talking individual top 10 guild only who did Ragnaros heroic with 4 healers, or Yogg0 with 4 healers. Not even you're run of the mill really good top 300 guild did that. It's just not a feesible way to play and never really has been for all the reasons I've listed.

    I repeat, 20% more spells casts and 20% more GCD's on the healing table are infinitely better than healers doing slightly stronger heals because they can gem throughput by not overhealing. As a Monk I can still only heal 8 or so targets at once (unless I have Tea up), as a Priest/Shaman/Pala it's even less. Stronger heals don't make me heal more people.
    You're taking my example of foregoing a healer too literally, though i said it in a sentence, i did say you can lighten their load by a fraction. Now everything you've pointed, I had already accounted for, when i say something is a grossly simplified issue, i mean it inn the sense that, i used those placeholder values to illustrate a point not a reality. There are 2 healer specs where if they choose to go DPS, they will still be doing a decent amount of damage, and still be a completely viable short cooldown burst phase healer, what mainly comes to mind is a Disc priest or a MW Monk; yes these two specs let alone to do the jobs they are best at (ie. raid healing) will excel, but just because you cant do the fight with 4 healers doesnt mean you can do it with 4.5.

    Yes that is an abstract notion, but using a dps class and having them stop dps to start trying to heal will do nothing in most cases (barring Spriests and symbiosis - tranquility). However a healer class/spec like a monk or a Priest acting as a buffer between a DPS (subpar yes, however their dmg is also incorporated into healing) and a healer will inevitably make your raid more efficient. There are 6 healing specs in the game at the moment, two of which can deal a competent amount worth of damage whilst still maintaining full raid healing utility when the time calls.

    So yea, as i said you took my examples too literally, foregoing one healer entirely this early in the expansion would be a design flaw and a fault on Blizzard's part, but Healer raid composition isnt a black and white area, its more of a blurred line, that any 25man guild (10man a bit less) can take advantage of.
    Last edited by Zonex; 2012-10-24 at 07:02 AM.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Zonex View Post
    You're taking my example of foregoing a healer too literally, though i said it in a sentence, i did say you can lighten their load by a fraction. Now everything you've pointed, I had already accounted for, when i say something is a grossly simplified issue, i mean it inn the sense that, i used those placeholder values to illustrate a point not a reality. There are 2 healer specs where if they choose to go DPS, they will still be doing a decent amount of damage, and still be a completely viable short cooldown burst phase healer, what mainly comes to mind is a Disc priest or a MW Monk; yes these two specs let alone to do the jobs they are best at (ie. raid healing) will excel, but just because you cant do the fight with 4 healers doesnt mean you can do it with 4.5.

    Yes that is an abstract notion, but using a dps class and having them stop dps to start trying to heal will do nothing in most cases (barring Spriests and symbiosis - tranquility). However a healer class/spec like a monk or a Priest acting as a buffer between a DPS (subpar yes, however their dmg is also incorporated into healing) and a healer will inevitably make your raid more efficient. There are 6 healing specs in the game at the moment, two of which can deal a competent amount worth of damage whilst still maintaining full raid healing utility when the time calls.

    So yea, as i said you took my examples too literally, foregoing one healer entirely this early in the expansion would be a design flaw and a fault on Blizzard's part, but Healer raid composition isnt a black and white area, its more of a blurred line, that any 25man guild (10man a bit less) can take advantage of.
    Even if you pure nuke as Mistweaver and never cast any heals at all you only do about 20k DPS. That's a quarter of the damage a good DPS can do.

    IDK what Disc's do if they pure smite spam.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •