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  1. #41
    1. No its not a must. Yes, you can do a decent amount of healing from melee as a monk, but not as far as good as "ordinary" healing. Fistweaving works great in situations when the group doesn't take to much damage (dungeons etc.). Also, will use a lot of mana just using jab, so in my personal experience, atleast for 25 man raids, its better to just stick with traditional healing.

    2. Since monks only have mana tea as an active way of regenerating mana. The important thing is to pay close attention to your chi, and make sure you use it everytime you can, to make sure you get the amounts stacks of mana tea you need. And as others say here, stack spirit, reforge it on every part of your gear you dont have spirit on.

    3. I have only used Chi wave and Chi burst, and i find Chi burst the best. It has no cooldown, so with the right amount of chi you can just spam it and get more stacks of mana tea than you can with chi wave, atleast thats what i experienced, when i switched.

    4. Honestly, i havent tried out Zen Meditation in 25 man yet....actually i kinda forgot that we have that cooldown, so i will try it in our next 25 man, to see how it fits.

  2. #42
    Over 9000! Hyve's Avatar
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    The advice in here seems pretty solid, and I've taken away a point or two I might try.

    The main bit of advice I can throw in, is be prepared to top the Over-healing Meter. It actually is an important part of our Mana Regeneration mechanic, to constantly be spending Chi, and Chi typically does healing. I'm sometimes 50% over-healing done, and still leading the healing meters (Not that it matters), and I still have 80%+ Mana.

    The other bit of advice I would give is don't Glyph the Mana Tea, and just drink the smaller stacks. Some people prefer to have an instant, high-stack mana regen but I found that to be a bit to unreliable on larger, more important fights. It seems more of a PvP Glyph in my view. Drink the Mana Tea often, every 2 - 3 stacks and whenever there is no healing needed and you need mana.

    If you've got a 20 Stack Mana Tea, and you're nearly OOM, you're not going to be able to drink enough, fast enough, if the fight is getting intense. An example if Elegon. If you've got Mana Tea stacks saved from the last phases building up as you enter the final third phase, you'll probably wipe from a lack of healing. Drink the Mana Tea more often then not I say!

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Blasphemii View Post
    Even if you pure nuke as Mistweaver and never cast any heals at all you only do about 20k DPS. That's a quarter of the damage a good DPS can do.

    IDK what Disc's do if they pure smite spam.
    Yea I'll admit Disc's are most suited for the job but that's just it, you compromise in this kind of situation gaining the most out of it, as you have mentioned; you gain a spec that brings raid cooldowns, and on call healing, however other than those phases the need for that additional hand is just to make the life of the other healers easier. Instead of doing that, you can end the fight like you always would and instead have 20-35k dps more overall, which helps with the tuning of the "constant" healers' (in this case) throughput/regen, as even whilst dpsing, MW and Disc's still put out a noticeable amount of healing that doesn't get overhealed. (at least when the incoming damage in scope-able)

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyve View Post
    The advice in here seems pretty solid, and I've taken away a point or two I might try.

    The main bit of advice I can throw in, is be prepared to top the Over-healing Meter. It actually is an important part of our Mana Regeneration mechanic, to constantly be spending Chi, and Chi typically does healing. I'm sometimes 50% over-healing done, and still leading the healing meters (Not that it matters), and I still have 80%+ Mana.

    The other bit of advice I would give is don't Glyph the Mana Tea, and just drink the smaller stacks. Some people prefer to have an instant, high-stack mana regen but I found that to be a bit to unreliable on larger, more important fights. It seems more of a PvP Glyph in my view. Drink the Mana Tea often, every 2 - 3 stacks and whenever there is no healing needed and you need mana.

    If you've got a 20 Stack Mana Tea, and you're nearly OOM, you're not going to be able to drink enough, fast enough, if the fight is getting intense. An example if Elegon. If you've got Mana Tea stacks saved from the last phases building up as you enter the final third phase, you'll probably wipe from a lack of healing. Drink the Mana Tea more often then not I say!
    It would be a lot more compelling to ditch the Mana Tea glyph if there were other good glyphs to use instead. But really our only good glyph is SCK. You don't need to press a glyphed Mana Tea every time it's off CD anyway, you can still wait until for a lull, you just need more lulls. I've tried it both ways and it wasn't obvious to me which if any was better.

    Renewing Mists glyph isn't especially good and if anything gives you less control. It's actually better on a lot of fights not to glyph it because then you Spinning Crane Kick the ranged/healers and REM the melee knowing that every tick will pass onto another melee who need to heals because they're not in SCK

    Zen Medidation is a crappy spell. Only really useful if you're oom as you may as well cast it then.

  5. #45
    after reading the whole thread i need to say that blasphemii you underestimate how much the dps a MW or Disc priest does actually helps the raid.

    i am in a newly formed 10 man guild and we are no where near harcore raiders (couple have been in the past) but when we first did garajal we were wiping on the enrage timer cause some of our dps players are not world class and are not doing 100% of their potential dps. i started the fight as WW cause my dps was the 2nd highest in the guild. but we did not get it down. the day after we had more dps online so i switched to my main spec MW and i started to Fistweave seeing as you do not go oom at all in that fight if you need to go into the realm. and i did around 20-22k dps and we one shotted it. while i was still topping the healer charts with ReM and using spinning crane kick in the last burn phase. the extra 20k dps pushed us from wiping on a enrage to killing it with 15 seconds to spare.

    yes 20k dps is not much when a pure dps does 80k but if you can keep the raid alive with your healers and i can put out 20k dps it adds up to quite a lot of dmg over the course of a 6 or 9 minute fight. that inevitabily helps cause shorter fight means less dmg taken is less healing needed and less chance of a wipe.

    looking at logs for elegon the highest monk is actually fistweaving almost the complete fight and using SCK for the last burn phase most likely so keeping rem spread uplifting with the chi he gets from jabs and keeping TP and ZS up and refreshing them when needed. and SCK only when he can't jab and needs to heal people fast.

    there is defininatly a place for both rem-jab-uplift and rem-SCK-uplift or even rem-jab-jab-jab-uplift if you know a big burst is comming or even REM-SCK-SCK-SCK-uplift if in that mean time more dmg is incomming then can be healed with jab. but especially on elegon where you do 50% more dmg and 50% more healing fistweaving alone can net you 30k dps and about 50-60k hps with good use of rem and uplift.

    so don't just try to push your way of healing on to everybody in this thread. different people like different ways of healing. and your way is not the only way or the best way. its all up to the preference of the player and the type of fight you are doing. and as long as people are enjoying their play experience and getting the progress they want then there is nothing wrong with the way they heal.

    same goes for glyphs it is highly subjective to the fight you are on. for instance i would never use the glyphed uplift for any fight except garajal. you never go oom there and being able to spam uplift on all rem targets inbetween every SCK is huge healing wise. even keeping 3 voodoo dolls up as a monk when you are 2 healing that fight with a glyphed uplift is amazing but i would not use it on any other fight cause it costs to much mana. thats the same for the ReM glyph. on stone guards i kinda like the 40yard range i get from it. on elegon less so but on the other hand it can also be quite advantages during the pillar phase to spread it to everybody on my side cause they are lamost never within 20yards of each other.

    so as long as we accept that there are multiple ways of playing including gemming and reforging. and as long as it is working for the person doing it that way then who are we to argue that they are doing it wrong ? if you look at the top logs some monks will fistweave a lot some won't but end up doing near same amount of HPS so who cares? same as i have seen 1 fistweaving monk stack only intel instead of spirit. the main concensus is that atm with current gear lvl you should stack spirit for mana regen. that guy went full intel has 7.4k passive spirit. but he is fistweaving a lot so he does more healing with the increased sp he gets from intel. he is still pulling 80k+ hps on fights so who are we to say that would be wrong cause most people say spirit stacking atm is better.

    and yes people will come to forums to ask for advice or they need help but that doesn't mean that your way is the only way just keep that in mind and we get a better forum that way with better discussions instead of you arguing with everybody to try and convince everybody that your way is the only way. let people discover their own best healing style from a variety of comments from other MW players.

    hope my msg comes across seeing i have repeated it more then enough.

  6. #46
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    Besides Using jab for Chi is way more faster then SCK and more Chi you gain the more Uplift you can put out, And Uplift heals alot more then SCK. during th duration of 1 SCK you can gain 2 Chi while jabbing, Even 3 if you have power strike. So for Using SCK twice ot gain hte Chi for Uplift you will gain atleast 4 chi and that means Uplifft*2. that is more HPS then SCK-SCK-Uplift.

    And as Imbamouse said logs for elgon shows that MWs do fistweave there and only use SCK at burn phase thats why SCK gets so high up on the list for that fight.

  7. #47
    Thanks for all the info and discussion on the thread, is really helping me and im learning alot.
    Btw as i asked before, an1 have some intel on the last talent choice? Im seeing some mistweavers pick the xuen the white tiger, is this better than rushing jade wind and the buff that provides to SCK?

  8. #48
    @ drevan

    the last talent is dependant on what you like more then anything else. the 50% inc of SCK can be useful if you don't forget to use it before you SCK ofc. but there is also the argument that 1 uplift is healing for more then the extra 50% on SCK if you have ReM running on enough targets. in that case the 2 chi you spend on RJW can better be used to uplift.

    Xuen will give you some extra dmg and can for instance help on some burn phases more then RJW can. if you can keep people up with SCK or jab-jab-uplift then the extra dmg Xuen does could be useful. especially for cleave of add fights to help get adds down quicker.

    but in the end it is all a choice what you prefer the most.

  9. #49
    There are a few misconceptions about fistweaving, I believe.

    Firstly, the idea that it's bad on mana. It's not, pure and simple. Out of all of the ways to generate Chi, the most efficient (aka lowest mana cost for the chi) is Expel Harm. But that has a cooldown. The other options are Renewing Mist, which you're casting anyway and also has a cooldown, Surging Mist which you shouldn't be using except in emergency oh-crap-he's-gonna-die situations (or when it's free after you've been Tiger Palming), Soothing Mist, and Jab.

    Since the first three aren't going to get you that bread-and-butter go-to chi generation, let's look at Soothing Mist and Jab. Soothing Mist costs 3k mana per tick, with a 25% chance to generate chi. This means that on average you'll generate one chi per 12k mana. Jab costs less than this, and it's immediate: you know that you're going to get the chi, no waiting around. So Jab is better as far as chi gen is concerned.

    But this doesn't mean you should be spamming jab every free gcd, all the time. You do that when everyone's topped and you're just wasting mana. Eminence healing isn't trivial, and it doesn't have any mana cost outside of the chi gen abilities. It has its place. Is it the best for making sure someone won't die? Absolutely not. You absolutely need to use soothing mist, surging mist, and enveloping mist when necessary. But this idea that you just shouldn't do it, because it "sucks"? No, I can't get behind that. We have these tools for a reason, and they have their purpose. Fistweaving isn't going to be ideal in every situation, but it has its place.

    On the subject of overhealing, you should absolutely not be concerned about overhealing caused by Renewing Mists. The purpose of RM is twofold, and only one of those cares about mana efficiency, the healing provided by the HoT effect itself. The other purpose of RM is to fuel Uplift, and that you really care more about. Even if RM is ticking on someone for 80% of its duration on someone who's topped off, if it's still on them when you need to use Uplift then it's doing its job.

    But overhealing is something curious about the Monk. With the way Eminence healing works, it's basically impossible to overheal while fistweaving. There are a few corner cases, such as nobody is in range of your statue or you have a big Blackout Kick crit with the raid mostly topped off, but by and large if the raid is taking damage, and you're fistweaving, then your heals will be healing people and not overhealing. It was described by a guildmate of mine as a sort of raw blanket throughput healing. This means that you won't ever get the spotlight, saving the raid from imminent defeat with spectacle and glory, but it's something that you'll notice if it's absent - the other healers will have to work a lot harder.

    I admit I haven't really put the Monk through much in the way of serious pressure situations, but the idea that we can just dismiss half of our healing abilities strikes me as incredibly shortsighted. I've been playing this game long enough to think that I can recognize potential when I see it.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-24 at 09:30 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Imbamouse View Post
    @ drevan

    the last talent is dependant on what you like more then anything else. the 50% inc of SCK can be useful if you don't forget to use it before you SCK ofc. but there is also the argument that 1 uplift is healing for more then the extra 50% on SCK if you have ReM running on enough targets. in that case the 2 chi you spend on RJW can better be used to uplift.

    Xuen will give you some extra dmg and can for instance help on some burn phases more then RJW can. if you can keep people up with SCK or jab-jab-uplift then the extra dmg Xuen does could be useful. especially for cleave of add fights to help get adds down quicker.

    but in the end it is all a choice what you prefer the most.
    I'm still torn on the last tier. RJW is nice for the really sustained aoe-heavy fights, but the 2 chi cost is what really sinks it for me. There's almost always something I'd rather be spending that chi on, and it's usually Uplift. RJW's buff to SCK just doesn't last long enough, and the cooldown is long enough, that using it just feels like something awkward rather than something appealing. That it is furthermore positional in its own healing is one more annoyance: when I'm in a situation where I feel the need to SCK, I'm usually not on one extreme of the pack of players.

    Xuen is a real workhorse of a healing cooldown. His damage procs Eminence heals, and for situations where there are multiple targets for his lightning to hit, that can be a lot of healing. Lasting 40 seconds is a bit odd for something like this though, as it means it's not good for big, short-timed damage but very nice for burns like Elegon's final phase. Particularly if there is some increased damage mechanic at work. The best part about Xuen is he's fire-and-forget: one GCD is all you invest in it, and it's just passive, awesome healing until he poofs.

    Chi Torpedo, on the other hand, is one of those things that make people go "That's stupid. Why would I want to be flinging myself around the room instead of healing?" But I for one believe that first look to be quite deceptive. It's actually quite a lot of healing, and it's completely free: no mana, no chi. It does take time, however. I've found it most effective to use in pairs, to torpedo out and then back to where I started. Lots of healing along the way, and I end up in the place I'm supposed to be. There are situational uses for which you're wanting to move anyway, and people need healing during that time, and that's when it really shines. Fistweaving on Feng comes to mind. Oh, on that fight in particular, Monks are not targeted by Arcane Resonance, so even if you're *not* fistweaving, in with the melee is where you should be standing. Leave room for all the other poor bastards who get targeted by it.
    Last edited by Dreyo; 2012-10-24 at 01:32 PM.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Aremia View Post
    1.Fistweaving is like Priest's smite healing. It's not necessary whatsoever. In fact, most of the time you'll want to heal normally. It is NOT free. Idk who would describe it as such. Lol.

    2. Our mana is pretty decent compared to other healers. I think we even have a slight advantage over certain other classes, but with starter raid gear of course you'll have a few issues keeping mana up. It's normal. Just stack spirit. Right now I'm running with around 8k unbuffed and I'm pretty good with most fights, as long as people aren't messing up and doing things they're not supposed to be.

    3. Mess around with all of them. I usually go for Zen Sphere for fights where you'll be grouped up. The other 2 aren't really too effective, since you'd probably want to prioritize Uplift over all of them when people are spread out.

    4. I think it's better for us to heal. I guess if you were OOM and about to receive some heavy magic damage from a raid boss, you'd want to pop it. Otherwise, just stick to healing. Some fights can get pretty intense toward the end and it's just better to keep helping the other heals.

    If you have any other questions, feel free to PM me. I'll try to get back to you ASAP. Again, good luck!!
    Wrong. Fistweaving is the most mana efficient way to heal. It also ends up killing the boss faster, which equals less mana used over the course of the fight. Saying it "Isn't necessary" just means you have little idea on how to min-max the spec.

  11. #51
    So many missleading comments on overhealing here...
    Yes, as long as you don't go oom it doesnt matter as long as no one dies.
    I suspect that there will be situations though where you need to analyze your raids healing and dealing with overhealing is essential.
    In a ten man grp you need a second healer you can actually communicate with that doesnt suck ( like my paladin co-healer that burst heals with holy light).
    Have claerly defined roles. Who dispells what in whom and who is healing whom and when. This minimizes overheal. When i told my raid i will solely heal every stacked aoe damage The overheal of all healers dropped by about 33% to 10-15% on farm.
    Feeling how much damage is applied and what spells to use how often is The second thing. That one last sck or uplift could be easily wasted if done when there is nothing worth spending The mana or chi on.

    If you are progressing and have mana constrains then analyzing overheal is healthy if you can get The other healers into it.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Imbamouse View Post
    after reading the whole thread i need to say that blasphemii you underestimate how much the dps a MW or Disc priest does actually helps the raid.

    i am in a newly formed 10 man guild and we are no where near harcore raiders (couple have been in the past) but when we first did garajal we were wiping on the enrage timer cause some of our dps players are not world class and are not doing 100% of their potential dps. i started the fight as WW cause my dps was the 2nd highest in the guild. but we did not get it down. the day after we had more dps online so i switched to my main spec MW and i started to Fistweave seeing as you do not go oom at all in that fight if you need to go into the realm. and i did around 20-22k dps and we one shotted it. while i was still topping the healer charts with ReM and using spinning crane kick in the last burn phase. the extra 20k dps pushed us from wiping on a enrage to killing it with 15 seconds to spare.

    yes 20k dps is not much when a pure dps does 80k but if you can keep the raid alive with your healers and i can put out 20k dps it adds up to quite a lot of dmg over the course of a 6 or 9 minute fight. that inevitabily helps cause shorter fight means less dmg taken is less healing needed and less chance of a wipe.

    looking at logs for elegon the highest monk is actually fistweaving almost the complete fight and using SCK for the last burn phase most likely so keeping rem spread uplifting with the chi he gets from jabs and keeping TP and ZS up and refreshing them when needed. and SCK only when he can't jab and needs to heal people fast.

    there is defininatly a place for both rem-jab-uplift and rem-SCK-uplift or even rem-jab-jab-jab-uplift if you know a big burst is comming or even REM-SCK-SCK-SCK-uplift if in that mean time more dmg is incomming then can be healed with jab. but especially on elegon where you do 50% more dmg and 50% more healing fistweaving alone can net you 30k dps and about 50-60k hps with good use of rem and uplift.

    so don't just try to push your way of healing on to everybody in this thread. different people like different ways of healing. and your way is not the only way or the best way. its all up to the preference of the player and the type of fight you are doing. and as long as people are enjoying their play experience and getting the progress they want then there is nothing wrong with the way they heal.

    same goes for glyphs it is highly subjective to the fight you are on. for instance i would never use the glyphed uplift for any fight except garajal. you never go oom there and being able to spam uplift on all rem targets inbetween every SCK is huge healing wise. even keeping 3 voodoo dolls up as a monk when you are 2 healing that fight with a glyphed uplift is amazing but i would not use it on any other fight cause it costs to much mana. thats the same for the ReM glyph. on stone guards i kinda like the 40yard range i get from it. on elegon less so but on the other hand it can also be quite advantages during the pillar phase to spread it to everybody on my side cause they are lamost never within 20yards of each other.

    so as long as we accept that there are multiple ways of playing including gemming and reforging. and as long as it is working for the person doing it that way then who are we to argue that they are doing it wrong ? if you look at the top logs some monks will fistweave a lot some won't but end up doing near same amount of HPS so who cares? same as i have seen 1 fistweaving monk stack only intel instead of spirit. the main concensus is that atm with current gear lvl you should stack spirit for mana regen. that guy went full intel has 7.4k passive spirit. but he is fistweaving a lot so he does more healing with the increased sp he gets from intel. he is still pulling 80k+ hps on fights so who are we to say that would be wrong cause most people say spirit stacking atm is better.

    and yes people will come to forums to ask for advice or they need help but that doesn't mean that your way is the only way just keep that in mind and we get a better forum that way with better discussions instead of you arguing with everybody to try and convince everybody that your way is the only way. let people discover their own best healing style from a variety of comments from other MW players.

    hope my msg comes across seeing i have repeated it more then enough.
    There is always a best way to do something in WoW PvE. It's a maths game.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-24 at 05:25 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Imbamouse View Post
    @ drevan

    the last talent is dependant on what you like more then anything else. the 50% inc of SCK can be useful if you don't forget to use it before you SCK ofc. but there is also the argument that 1 uplift is healing for more then the extra 50% on SCK if you have ReM running on enough targets. in that case the 2 chi you spend on RJW can better be used to uplift.

    Xuen will give you some extra dmg and can for instance help on some burn phases more then RJW can. if you can keep people up with SCK or jab-jab-uplift then the extra dmg Xuen does could be useful. especially for cleave of add fights to help get adds down quicker.

    but in the end it is all a choice what you prefer the most.
    This is just not true at all. SCK heals for more than Uplift if your raid is stacked.

  13. #53
    Dreadlord
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    if 25ppl are stacked SCK heals for an average of 1.5k so 3k with the buff from RJW. Uplift heals for 25k on average and have that on 16ppl is more then SCK on 25ppl. If you say no to that then prove it. Just dont give txt give some spreadsheet on it. Same witheverything you say. You have no proof at all. And until that all you say might be just wrong and BS

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by lauryn View Post
    Yes, as long as you don't go oom it doesnt matter as long as no one dies.
    This kind of mentality lets healers get away with an average performance. I'm sure no one wants to be like the norm, they want to excel, and healing as a MW has the potential for the player to do just that by enabling competitive healing whilst maximizing their role's efficiency. Mana left over from a fight before it ends, is mana wasted. Mana can pool into healing but also into damage, especially with how this class works, that damage not only shortens an encounter's duration but also provides smart healing with a very low overhealing rate.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Tatuin View Post
    if 25ppl are stacked SCK heals for an average of 1.5k so 3k with the buff from RJW. Uplift heals for 25k on average and have that on 16ppl is more then SCK on 25ppl. If you say no to that then prove it. Just dont give txt give some spreadsheet on it. Same witheverything you say. You have no proof at all. And until that all you say might be just wrong and BS
    Except that SCK generates chi, and Uplift uses chi. Use both.

    And 16 people with Uplift is a lot. Takes a well-timed TFT, and then you still only get it for one Uplift that you had to prepare for a good thirty seconds in advance.

    It is possible to do math without spreadsheets, by the way. It'd be nice if you weren't so dismissive.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Zonex View Post
    This kind of mentality lets healers get away with an average performance. I'm sure no one wants to be like the norm, they want to excel, and healing as a MW has the potential for the player to do just that by enabling competitive healing whilst maximizing their role's efficiency. Mana left over from a fight before it ends, is mana wasted. Mana can pool into healing but also into damage, especially with how this class works, that damage not only shortens an encounter's duration but also provides smart healing with a very low overhealing rate.
    I agree except for the fact that you seem to think an average performance is something bad. People raid in all kinds of different surroundings and not everyone needs to be better than average or persuing to be.

    You have your own views on your performance and your raid's, as have all the other guys,too.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by lauryn View Post
    I agree except for the fact that you seem to think an average performance is something bad. People raid in all kinds of different surroundings and not everyone needs to be better than average or persuing to be.

    You have your own views on your performance and your raid's, as have all the other guys,too.
    http://www.temerityofwindrunner.com/...aver/calc.html

    You can see my logs quite easily if you go to world oflogs and check 25 heroic, my monks name is astråios. Around the time of this post you should see me on the first two fights.

    I can say from experience and theorycrafting that uplift HPS dominates SCK, and so does chi burst. SCK after nerf is pretty bad in terms of raw HPS. It's still the strongest chi generator if it wont overheal, and gives the highest HPS in a SCKx2/uplift rotation,
    Chi burst and uplift are around equal healing at 10 targets, with uplift doing more raw healing at and past ten targets, while chi burst is split better on the raid.
    Pooling chi before burst is obviously optimal with jab, cheapest mana/healing when SCK would be overheal otherwise.

    RJW sucks. It does less healing than a chi burst. Xuen or chi torpedo if you have mana issues. CT gives around 450k on a stacked 25m raid. Xuen does around 1mil, give or take a couple hundred thousand. Chi Brew > Power strikes. It gives more burst healing, at around the same "mana efficiency" (or bonus mana via chi) as power strikes.

    Oh, and glyph mana tea. You cannot generate more than 2 stacks in 10s continually, and it gives you more globals to cast on spells when you glyph it. (2 stacks per 1 global instead of 1 stack per one global). Using glyph means there will be situations where you will be oom and unable to regenerate mana efficiently in a GCD sense.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by ColbaneX View Post
    Wrong. Fistweaving is the most mana efficient way to heal. It also ends up killing the boss faster, which equals less mana used over the course of the fight. Saying it "Isn't necessary" just means you have little idea on how to min-max the spec.
    As a healer, it's my job to keep people alive, not kill the boss. We have DPS for that. There are some fights where I can Fistweave if there's little damage going out to my raid. But when the raid's constantly getting smacked in the face, I'm not going to Fistweave. That's just stupid. You're not going to put up the same numbers as healing regularly. So regardless of how mana efficient it is (which it isn't,) I'd rather blow my mana instead of watching my raid die while I sit there pulling ~30k DPS and throwing out mediocre heals to random people. Learn your class before you insult someone who's obviously playing it better than you are.
    Last edited by Aremia; 2012-10-25 at 02:33 AM.

  19. #59
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    Fistweaving is absolutely efficient.
    It doesn't take much to keep up 3TP and 2BOK while REM/Uplift-ing. Throw in jab and SCK and that's about it.
    Serpent's zeal is the most mana efficient heal in the game.

    While there are times it's better to stand back and channel, don't blow off fistweaving as a joke. The entire class was designed around the concept.
    Last edited by WskyDK; 2012-10-25 at 02:43 AM. Reason: typo

  20. #60
    There is so much misinformation that's completely unsubstantiated in this thread it hurts. Let me lay down some facts and numbers for you.

    First off we are not a MT healer, this is obvious from the class design that we have strong aoe heal abilities and weak inefficient single target heals. One of them costs alot of mana the other alot of chi.

    Secondly the class is designed around the building and spending of chi as quickly as possible. This is true because looking at mana tea, its obvious that the goal is to regen as much mana through that as possible, which conversely means spending as much chi as fast as possible.

    We have three dependable chi builders, SCK, soothing mists and jab, I'll throw a spanner in the works here and say outright the whole Mistweave vs Fistweave debate is nonsense. Each style of healing is suitable for a certain style of encounter. Jab is simply the most efficient chi builder, therefore in fights where you can be in melee range this is best. There is absolutely no counter argument to this. We know the idea of a mistweaver to build and spend chi as fast as possible. Therefore to say soothing mists is better than jab when one builds 1 chi per GCD and the other has a 0.25% chance of building a chi per roughly 1 GCD jab wins every time. Also through eminence the heal is about the same per time frame.

    However in situations where jab is not suitable, for example Will of the Emperor Soothing mists is far superior. Finally in clumped up situations where alot of healing is required, such as epicenter. SCK far outperforms both, although the chi building is a bit lower than jab it does much more aoe healing to a stacked raid group. So you can SCKx2 then uplift.

    The argument that doing damage isn't our job is completely irellevant because the point of fistweaving isn't damage its producing the most chi per GCD as we possibly can. Also to say the healing is bad would suggest you haven't really looked at the maths. Blackout kick's Serpents Zeal passive far outperforms Uplift per chi spent. An example being Serpents Zeal heals only 5 players in melee range around you. Each auto attack heals 4000 lets assume, (that figure is about average). Given the 30 second buff timer you have on Serpents Zeal you'll have around 20 auto attacks + tiger strike procs. Therefor 400*5*20= 400,000 healing. Now lets be generous and assume you have Renewing mists on all 10 raid targets. 25000*10 = 250,000. Of course this is using theory and not real raid environments. But you cannot possibly come back and say fistweaving Healing is bad, This example even ignores the eminence healing from casting Blackout kick, which is another 20,000 or so.

    Sure damage isn't our jobs but as someone pointed out enrage timers are tight and the sooner the boss dies the less mana we have to spend why wouldn't we contribute to damage. The obvious answer is its harder and takes more skill than simply spamming soothing mists. But being able to play optimally doesn't affect whether its strictly a better way to heal. If you can do 50k HPS and 10k DPS why would you chose to do 50k HPS alone.

    Also the maths on Cranedancers staff vs heroic drop staffs is very complex I gave up. Cranedancers is probably better in 5 mans where you can solely fistweave and never have to be out of melee. Where as other staffs with spirit on are probably better in any situation where you cant be in melee 100% of the fight. It might be most efficient to macro swap them between phases at the cost of a GCD.

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