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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Aremia View Post
    As a healer, it's my job to keep people alive, not kill the boss. We have DPS for that. There are some fights where I can Fistweave if there's little damage going out to my raid. But when the raid's constantly getting smacked in the face, I'm not going to Fistweave. That's just stupid. You're not going to put up the same numbers as healing regularly. So regardless of how mana efficient it is (which it isn't,) I'd rather blow my mana instead of watching my raid die while I sit there pulling ~30k DPS and throwing out mediocre heals to random people. Learn your class before you insult someone who's obviously playing it better than you are.

    this statement is so untrue that it hurts.
    also just stating things that are just not true.
    as explained by multiple people fistweaving is actually really good and mana effecient way of healing if you go about it the right way not mindlessly spamming jab when nobody needs healing and such. if you look at several top 10 logs of MW on WoL you will see like the nr 3 on healing is emminence and then look at dmg done and see that they fistweaved the whole fight while keeping ReM up and using uplift. while pulling 20k+ dps and 80k+hps there is no argument to say fistweaving is bad and is not keeping up the raid.
    i 2 healed garajal in 10 man by nothing else then fistweaving and keeping ReM up and using Uplift and only used SCK in the enrage phase. also kept voodoo dolls up that way without them dying once.
    don't go say people need to learn a class if people say something that you do not agree with. that you have no idea of how good fistweaving can be when used correctly does not mean others do not know how to play there class.
    if they can fistweave do 20k+ dps and do 50k+ hps or whatever and nobody dies in there raid and they get the boss down faster what is the problem ?

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by gnorrior View Post
    http://www.temerityofwindrunner.com/...aver/calc.html

    You can see my logs quite easily if you go to world oflogs and check 25 heroic, my monks name is astråios. Around the time of this post you should see me on the first two fights.

    I can say from experience and theorycrafting that uplift HPS dominates SCK, and so does chi burst. SCK after nerf is pretty bad in terms of raw HPS. It's still the strongest chi generator if it wont overheal, and gives the highest HPS in a SCKx2/uplift rotation,
    Chi burst and uplift are around equal healing at 10 targets, with uplift doing more raw healing at and past ten targets, while chi burst is split better on the raid.
    Pooling chi before burst is obviously optimal with jab, cheapest mana/healing when SCK would be overheal otherwise.

    RJW sucks. It does less healing than a chi burst. Xuen or chi torpedo if you have mana issues. CT gives around 450k on a stacked 25m raid. Xuen does around 1mil, give or take a couple hundred thousand. Chi Brew > Power strikes. It gives more burst healing, at around the same "mana efficiency" (or bonus mana via chi) as power strikes.

    Oh, and glyph mana tea. You cannot generate more than 2 stacks in 10s continually, and it gives you more globals to cast on spells when you glyph it. (2 stacks per 1 global instead of 1 stack per one global). Using glyph means there will be situations where you will be oom and unable to regenerate mana efficiently in a GCD sense.
    Did you quote me on accident ? I have no idea why you are telling me that.

  3. #63
    To the first guy, yes I just randomly picked a post to quote, nothing personal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilanguar View Post
    There is so much misinformation that's completely unsubstantiated in this thread it hurts. Let me lay down some facts and numbers for you.

    First off we are not a MT healer, this is obvious from the class design that we have strong aoe heal abilities and weak inefficient single target heals. One of them costs alot of mana the other alot of chi.

    Secondly the class is designed around the building and spending of chi as quickly as possible. This is true because looking at mana tea, its obvious that the goal is to regen as much mana through that as possible, which conversely means spending as much chi as fast as possible.

    We have three dependable chi builders, SCK, soothing mists and jab, I'll throw a spanner in the works here and say outright the whole Mistweave vs Fistweave debate is nonsense. Each style of healing is suitable for a certain style of encounter. Jab is simply the most efficient chi builder, therefore in fights where you can be in melee range this is best. There is absolutely no counter argument to this. We know the idea of a mistweaver to build and spend chi as fast as possible. Therefore to say soothing mists is better than jab when one builds 1 chi per GCD and the other has a 0.25% chance of building a chi per roughly 1 GCD jab wins every time. Also through eminence the heal is about the same per time frame.

    However in situations where jab is not suitable, for example Will of the Emperor Soothing mists is far superior. Finally in clumped up situations where alot of healing is required, such as epicenter. SCK far outperforms both, although the chi building is a bit lower than jab it does much more aoe healing to a stacked raid group. So you can SCKx2 then uplift.

    The argument that doing damage isn't our job is completely irellevant because the point of fistweaving isn't damage its producing the most chi per GCD as we possibly can. Also to say the healing is bad would suggest you haven't really looked at the maths. Blackout kick's Serpents Zeal passive far outperforms Uplift per chi spent. An example being Serpents Zeal heals only 5 players in melee range around you. Each auto attack heals 4000 lets assume, (that figure is about average). Given the 30 second buff timer you have on Serpents Zeal you'll have around 20 auto attacks + tiger strike procs. Therefor 400*5*20= 400,000 healing. Now lets be generous and assume you have Renewing mists on all 10 raid targets. 25000*10 = 250,000. Of course this is using theory and not real raid environments. But you cannot possibly come back and say fistweaving Healing is bad, This example even ignores the eminence healing from casting Blackout kick, which is another 20,000 or so.

    Sure damage isn't our jobs but as someone pointed out enrage timers are tight and the sooner the boss dies the less mana we have to spend why wouldn't we contribute to damage. The obvious answer is its harder and takes more skill than simply spamming soothing mists. But being able to play optimally doesn't affect whether its strictly a better way to heal. If you can do 50k HPS and 10k DPS why would you chose to do 50k HPS alone.

    Also the maths on Cranedancers staff vs heroic drop staffs is very complex I gave up. Cranedancers is probably better in 5 mans where you can solely fistweave and never have to be out of melee. Where as other staffs with spirit on are probably better in any situation where you cant be in melee 100% of the fight. It might be most efficient to macro swap them between phases at the cost of a GCD.
    We have the ability to tank heal.

    We are not designed to generate chi and waste it. Thats what you sound like you're supporting...so no. Mana -> chi -> mana is inherently MANA NEGATIVE. The best you can get is around 6k mana cost/chi generated (using jab.) So no, spamming just to generate mana tea to drink it...makes no sense. Being the most mana efficient and putting out as much throughput as possible though, makes sense. As such jab is the best chi generator.

    I'm pretty sure jab/serpent's zeal is signifcantly higher HPS than soothing mist, but I could be wrong. Either way their healing is both worthless comparing to RnM and what we can do with chi.

    How can you not jab on Will? You can't do the safety dance? Then roll out during it and stack with ranged. Or jab the myriad adds all around. You'll gain more chi running around trying to jab then you will with soothing, because thats how bad soothing is.

    SCK is actually only ~35k HPS increase (around 140k jabx2/chi burst, around 175k sckx2/chi burst.) It's also slightly less efficient. (This is guessing at stats, and actually weird, I'm looking at the MW calc I linked before, normally sckx2/chi burst is more efficient and stronger than jabx2.)

    Anyway, SCK is an HPS increase, and an HPM increase, yes. But the healing is not bursty. Most of the time I generate 4 chi with jab while having RnM on 14+ targets before burst. Then upliftx2/rnM/expel harm/uplift and most of the raid is topped. If I used SCK I would do...significantly less healing (and likely more overhealing). SCK is more of a sustained healing spell, so on will and spirit kings it rocks, sure.

    Also serpent's zeal sure as heck does not "significantly outperform uplift per chi spent". First off you shouldn't be using uplift unless you have 10+ targets with RnM. IF you have 10+ targets...then your raw healing from uplift is around 500k+. A blackout kick is around 460k including 30s of complete uptime on target, never missing a white hit, etc. Chi burst does 400k healing per cast. That means that if you miss, say, 4 seconds of white hits on the boss in the entire 30s of serpent's zeal, then its a healing loss.

    Don't get me wrong, I use serpent's zeal and keep it up because I have extra chi during downtime which means that while theres no need for 400k healing, I can use my chi more efficiently (at the time) and increase my healing slightly for the next 30s (which will help during burst).

    But serpent's zeal is in most cases actually a healing loss, in reality. This is using the numbers for my 481 ilvl monk, stacking crit and avoiding mastery (mastery sucks for everything which isn't SCK. I'm considering a spirit/mastery only build for SCK/chi burst. But atm I prefer crit stacking since it gives FAR more powerful healing with chi burst, uplift (and equal with RnM.) Those three spells are normally >80% of my healing. Crit also increases my dps on fights that matter, I did 7 mil~ on our H Gara kill, while healing the raid [probably lower than someone purely fistweaving, I only got to really dps during beginning heroism and burn phase). (PS Uplift on 25m gara is such a PITA. Getting RnM on voodoo doll targets can be nearly impossible with raid damage spiking random people lower than voodoos, but I digress.)

    Also tigers palm sucks. Don't use it. It's benefit to healing is worthless. Only time I've used it was for DPS increase to try to pump out that extra "100k" during gara.

    PS did you know healing sphere does 110k~ HPS, at 9Healing per mana, which is significantly more efficient and slighty higher HPS than both surging mist and soothing mist.
    PSS your uplift #'s are wrong, mine average 30k before crit w/o overhealing.
    PSSS Spellpower loss from cranedancers to any epic raid weapon is too significant of a loss to every other heal to we have for cranedancers to be worth it in raids. In heroics and challengemodes you are correct however, cranedancer's allows you to pull 40k HPS~ and 20k-30K dps in heroics purely from fistweaving.
    Last edited by Astraios; 2012-10-25 at 07:16 PM.

  4. #64
    The Patient Helander's Avatar
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    Overhealing NEVER gets better =(

    Its because of our hots though, as my gear goes up so does my overhealing. I currently overheal 40-65% yet this isnt a problem in my mind because I almost never run into mana issues.

    I see it simply as part of the class.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by gnorrior View Post
    To the first guy, yes I just randomly picked a post to quote, nothing personal.



    We have the ability to tank heal.

    We are not designed to generate chi and waste it. Thats what you sound like you're supporting...so no. Mana -> chi -> mana is inherently MANA NEGATIVE. The best you can get is around 6k mana cost/chi generated (using jab.) So no, spamming just to generate mana tea to drink it...makes no sense. Being the most mana efficient and putting out as much throughput as possible though, makes sense. As such jab is the best chi generator.

    I'm pretty sure jab/serpent's zeal is signifcantly higher HPS than soothing mist, but I could be wrong. Either way their healing is both worthless comparing to RnM and what we can do with chi.

    How can you not jab on Will? You can't do the safety dance? Then roll out during it and stack with ranged. Or jab the myriad adds all around. You'll gain more chi running around trying to jab then you will with soothing, because thats how bad soothing is.

    SCK is actually only ~35k HPS increase (around 140k jabx2/chi burst, around 175k sckx2/chi burst.) It's also slightly less efficient. (This is guessing at stats, and actually weird, I'm looking at the MW calc I linked before, normally sckx2/chi burst is more efficient and stronger than jabx2.)

    Anyway, SCK is an HPS increase, and an HPM increase, yes. But the healing is not bursty. Most of the time I generate 4 chi with jab while having RnM on 14+ targets before burst. Then upliftx2/rnM/expel harm/uplift and most of the raid is topped. If I used SCK I would do...significantly less healing (and likely more overhealing). SCK is more of a sustained healing spell, so on will and spirit kings it rocks, sure.

    Also serpent's zeal sure as heck does not "significantly outperform uplift per chi spent". First off you shouldn't be using uplift unless you have 10+ targets with RnM. IF you have 10+ targets...then your raw healing from uplift is around 500k+. A blackout kick is around 460k including 30s of complete uptime on target, never missing a white hit, etc. Chi burst does 400k healing per cast. That means that if you miss, say, 4 seconds of white hits on the boss in the entire 30s of serpent's zeal, then its a healing loss.

    Don't get me wrong, I use serpent's zeal and keep it up because I have extra chi during downtime which means that while theres no need for 400k healing, I can use my chi more efficiently (at the time) and increase my healing slightly for the next 30s (which will help during burst).

    But serpent's zeal is in most cases actually a healing loss, in reality. This is using the numbers for my 481 ilvl monk, stacking crit and avoiding mastery (mastery sucks for everything which isn't SCK. I'm considering a spirit/mastery only build for SCK/chi burst. But atm I prefer crit stacking since it gives FAR more powerful healing with chi burst, uplift (and equal with RnM.) Those three spells are normally >80% of my healing. Crit also increases my dps on fights that matter, I did 7 mil~ on our H Gara kill, while healing the raid [probably lower than someone purely fistweaving, I only got to really dps during beginning heroism and burn phase). (PS Uplift on 25m gara is such a PITA. Getting RnM on voodoo doll targets can be nearly impossible with raid damage spiking random people lower than voodoos, but I digress.)

    Also tigers palm sucks. Don't use it. It's benefit to healing is worthless. Only time I've used it was for DPS increase to try to pump out that extra "100k" during gara.

    PS did you know healing sphere does 110k~ HPS, at 9Healing per mana, which is significantly more efficient and slighty higher HPS than both surging mist and soothing mist.
    PSS your uplift #'s are wrong, mine average 30k before crit w/o overhealing.
    PSSS Spellpower loss from cranedancers to any epic raid weapon is too significant of a loss to every other heal to we have for cranedancers to be worth it in raids. In heroics and challengemodes you are correct however, cranedancer's allows you to pull 40k HPS~ and 20k-30K dps in heroics purely from fistweaving.
    Tbh I think we are agreeing on most things, the main point I was making is Soothing mists is very much less efficient at creating chi. Alot of the posters in this thread are arguing you should never use Jab in raid healing. I'd like to reply to some of your points though.

    I think the eminence + serpents zeal healing from cranedancers actually makes up for the spell power. Its main issue is lack of spirit.

    Your uplifts might heal for 30k but not everyone has full epics. Most people are still progressing on normals with mainly 463 average and have uplifts around 24-26k.

    You say we're not designed to build and spend chi but, if we arn't doing that then we're standing around not casting anything. Spending mana will be mana inefficient of course but due to the mana tea mechanic we shouldn't shy around from using more efficient chi builders that might cost more than other chi builders that are less mana costly but less efficient. Such as SCK in stacked periods where everyone is taking alot of damage, arcane resonance for example.

    I believe its best to stay in the middle for Will of the Emp due to being unable to heal the melee group/ tank on the other side if you are in melee range.

    Finally I dont use chi burst because it seems inefficient compared to uplift. I would imagine you'd have to roll at least once or twice to get into a position where it hits enough of the raid that it out heals an uplift. Its possibly better in 25 mans but i just raid 10's.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Blasphemii View Post
    No one said that, stop exaggerating to try and give your point more validity.

    You don't need to be a World First guild, but you do need to be raiding at a respectable level. For example EJ had people posting how to heal LK Heroic/Anub heroic as Disc when they themselves weren't even up to it and arguing with people who had killed it that they were doing it wrong. That is absurd.

    Not to mention that this guy clearly doesn't have the faintest idea about the maths behind healing as a Mistweaver hence why he doesn't use SCK when it's not only our best spammable spell, it was so good Blizzard gave it a 30% nerf and it's still amazing.

    Bad players have a place in the discussion and that place is asking questions or sitting in the audience learning something. These days every idiot in a 10 man guild who can kill a few normal mode bosses thinks he's some kind of expert just because bosses die when he's in the raid. Like that is any kind of evidence that he's playing perfectly.
    You just said don't exaggerate, and then said the exact same thing as the other dude...

    This game is completely math based. You don't necessarily even need to have it installed to be able to figure much of it out...there are plenty of sources for basic info, even boss mechanics!

    Being above mediocre, and thats all it takes to be in a guild doing heroics anymore, does not make you good at math.
    Being good at math makes you good at math.

    EJ failed because they thought they were better at math than everyone else, and they simply weren't.
    Last edited by Wushu; 2012-10-26 at 12:02 AM.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by gnorrior View Post
    T
    We are not designed to generate chi and waste it. Thats what you sound like you're supporting...so no. Mana -> chi -> mana is inherently MANA NEGATIVE. The best you can get is around 6k mana cost/chi generated (using jab.) So no, spamming just to generate mana tea to drink it...makes no sense. Being the most mana efficient and putting out as much throughput as possible though, makes sense. As such jab is the best chi generator.

    I.
    i don't know about you but my Jab costs 9k mana and not 6k. so jab is still 3k on average cheaper then using soothing mist but not 6k cheaper like people are saying.

    on a different note a quick comparison between the 2 spells gives me the following
    on average my soothing hits for 10k per tick with another 5k from statue. this is unbuffed. with my jab hitting for around 16k unbuffed on dummy makes for 8k healing with another 4 from emminence makes for 12 k healing for jab to 15k for soothing. so jab gives with these numbers 1.3 healing per mana spend and soothing 1.25 healing per mana spend. that is not much difference. but jab is more reliable way to get chi while maybe doing a little less healing then pure soothing mist spam. but therefore you get back some dps to help down a boss faster (and more important a more fun way (IMHO) to play a healing class then just standing there and spamming soothing mist on people to generate chi.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Drevan View Post
    Hello Monk community!
    I want to apologize if what I will ask and share here with you guys have been answered before but if u guys dnt mind i would like to see all summarized in a single post and sorry for my english aswell.
    So im usually a healer in all mmos I play, since I play WoW for 8 years ive raided with every single role but healer is always my fav and the one i always go if im getting tired of pve raiding griding since for its never boring to heal.
    So I rolled a mistweaver monk for MoP, but due to real life issues i just recently hit lvl 90 and im starting to farm gear for raiding.
    I was 90 for like 4 hours or so, 450 item level and 2 greens and a friend of mine invited me to do MV normal 10 man, i refused explaining that i dnt have the gear and i didnt master the class aswell, he said that was nonsense that a good player is always a good player and against my will and because if i didnt go they wont raid i decided to help.
    We killed the 1st boss and 2nd boss, and while i know the content is far from hard I was pretty impressive with my healing, i was the 3rd on the metter on most atempts/kills but i was really close to them, parsers like 31% 27% 26% were the most common and the only big problem was to manage my mana but by the time I got oom the boss was dead or we were already half down and ready to wipe. I focused more on raid healing popping some EMs on the tanks from time to time when the raid was high health and some emergency heals on tanks when needed. My modus operandi was stack renewing mists on cooldown for it to spread and when needed uplift, when the raid gather like in feng for some massive aoe healing i used rushing jade wind and then spamm spinning crane kick, spending the chi that gives me in uplifts since the raid had renewing mists spread.
    My friend said: I told you so, u rock and the raid gave me a compliment BUT after a more detailed view of the recount I wasnt that impressed anymore, since I got alot of overhealing, and when I mean alot some tries I had something like 11% more overhealing than the shaman that was second.

    So some of my biggest doubts that i would like to be answered by more experienced monk healers are:

    Does my overhealing is somehow "normal" for our class or I was doing something wrong? I noticed most overheal came from renewing mists, something we cant control but even so im not used to see or do so much overheal so im kinda scared xD

    1. Fistweaving is really a must for us? Yes I know that eminence provides decent heals but it seems so dependent on the situation, plus the risk to stay on melee and my biggest issue is in my search ppl describe this healing as "free", am i missing something? Jabs are cheap but they are not free, they are referring to stack the buff from the kick and then auto attack? Yes thats free but im not seeing that work in many fights, but i didnt mistweaving at all in my raid.

    2. Do we have problems managing our mana pool? Or some of my problems were more like lack of total gear? (Yes, im using my mana tea in every cooldown and its glyphed).

    3. What 2nd tier of talent should i choose? Chi burst provides a good aoe healing but is position dependent. Zen sphere at my eyes seems it needs 4 chi to make effect what is bogus, but i could be wrong. Chi wave its what i specced, seems good but im not using because I feel that the 2 chi required is better spend in uplift if i have RM spread, if i dont i wait for it to spread.

    4. Is Zen Meditation a good raid cooldown? Since i didnt raid that much I dunno, its worth if for us to use it in a big aoe damage situation to absorb some damage while the other healers spamm or its better for us to heal instead of using it?

    Thank you for the ones that manage to read the all post, and I greatly appreciate some feedback and help.
    1. No this is not a must. I just use it on less healing intense fights to boost the raid damage a bit. If a fight is more stressfull for healers I only use Blackout Kick to keep the buff up and use fistweaving only in between the normal heals needed to keep up with all the damage going out.

    2. I had some problems with it when just dinging 90, after I got my average iLvL up to about 465, I never really ran into any mana issues.

    3. I use chi burst. If you are able to stand behind a big portion of the raid while aiming it at the boss/tank on the other side this talent is superior to the other ones.

    4. Yes. Use it when high magic damage is comming in, and it will save you and the other healers some butthurt
    Last edited by Ziktus; 2012-10-26 at 09:04 AM.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Imbamouse View Post
    i don't know about you but my Jab costs 9k mana and not 6k. so jab is still 3k on average cheaper then using soothing mist but not 6k cheaper like people are saying.

    on a different note a quick comparison between the 2 spells gives me the following
    on average my soothing hits for 10k per tick with another 5k from statue. this is unbuffed. with my jab hitting for around 16k unbuffed on dummy makes for 8k healing with another 4 from emminence makes for 12 k healing for jab to 15k for soothing. so jab gives with these numbers 1.3 healing per mana spend and soothing 1.25 healing per mana spend. that is not much difference. but jab is more reliable way to get chi while maybe doing a little less healing then pure soothing mist spam. but therefore you get back some dps to help down a boss faster (and more important a more fun way (IMHO) to play a healing class then just standing there and spamming soothing mist on people to generate chi.
    While it is encouraged you apply math to your explanations and theory, please try to do it accurately. Eminence from the Statue additively stacks with the player's passive Eminence. Which makes it quite different, I'll rework the "example" you have shown with the correct numbers and a reevaluated conclusion.

    0 Haste is assumed for the sake of simplification.

    Jab mana cost - 9k
    - Time Cost - 1.5s
    - Damage - 16k (16k Healing)
    - Real Mana Cost - 6k (Generates 1 Chi, 1 Chi is worth 1/4 MT which is worth 3k (12k/4))

    Soothing Mana cost - 3k per tick
    - Time Cost - 1s (Tick based calculation, this applies if you heal a target for more than or equal to 2 Ticks of soothing miss)
    - Healing - 15k (10k + 5k from statue)
    - Real Mana Cost - 2.25k (4 Ticks of SM costs 12k mana and gives 1 Chi, and 1 Chi is worth 3k mana(4 Chi = MT stack = 12k mana), so simplifying 12k:3k down to 3k:0.75k, we see that the real mana cost per tick is 3k - 0.75k = 2.25k)


    So now lets look at the final numbers;

    Jab
    - Heal per Mana - 2.67HPM (16k/6k)
    - Heal per Second - 10.67k

    Soothing Mist
    - Heal per Mana - 6.67HPM
    - Heal per Second - 15k

    Now in this isolated calculation, Soothing Mist makes an obvious claim to being superior, however it is far from it. Jab is instant, and thus the 1.5s CD is from the GCD and it also means if in melee range, with Serpent's Zeal, you are healing through your Auto Attack damage. You also have to note that the damage you are doing Jab + auto attack damage in this short 1.5s period is making the fight shorter and through multivariable calculations, you can see that your DPS is worth a certain amount of Healing (not through Eminence), this is because of Opportunity Cost. In Lamen's terms, the shorter the fight the less damage people take (Mitigation is tied to healing) which means less healing, but also it means overall the value of your mana increases. I'm not going to go any further, but yes in an isolated system Jab is weaker than SM regarding the laws of probability and long term use, however that is not the case and the fact that SM has an RNG factor to it relates to a ease oflife choice made by the player in which they must choose between higher HPM and HPS or more consistent use of their Chi abilties (which are more effiecient) which have their own HPS and HPM cost.

    All this is of course assuming your numbers are accurate (15k SM, 16k Jab), the formulas for those already exist and can clarify these numbers to a better degree.

    As you can see the Math isn't nearly as clear cut as you would like, and doing the proper Math will give you a good idea of isolated comparisons, however intuition and mathematical analysis will always prove a better statement.


    PS - To all the people who say "I could've figured this all out without the stupid Math"; I'm sure you could've but this kind of analysis isnt so cut and dry based that it only asks from what ability is better, it asks it how much better.
    Last edited by Zonex; 2012-10-26 at 09:44 AM.

  10. #70
    Dreadlord
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    But casting Soohting mist dont mean you will get a Chi from it. With jab you always get 1 chi.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Zonex View Post
    While it is encouraged you apply math to your explanations and theory, please try to do it accurately. Eminence from the Statue additively stacks with the player's passive Eminence. Which makes it quite different, I'll rework the "example" you have shown with the correct numbers and a reevaluated conclusion.

    0 Haste is assumed for the sake of simplification.

    Jab mana cost - 9k
    - Time Cost - 1.5s
    - Damage - 16k (16k Healing)
    - Real Mana Cost - 6k (Generates 1 Chi, 1 Chi is worth 1/4 MT which is worth 3k (12k/4))

    Soothing Mana cost - 3k per tick
    - Time Cost - 1s (Tick based calculation, this applies if you heal a target for more than or equal to 2 Ticks of soothing miss)
    - Healing - 15k (10k + 5k from statue)
    - Real Mana Cost - 2.25k (4 Ticks of SM costs 12k mana and gives 1 Chi, and 1 Chi is worth 3k mana(4 Chi = MT stack = 12k mana), so simplifying 12k:3k down to 3k:0.75k, we see that the real mana cost per tick is 3k - 0.75k = 2.25k)


    So now lets look at the final numbers;

    Jab
    - Heal per Mana - 2.67HPM (16k/6k)
    - Heal per Second - 10.67k

    Soothing Mist
    - Heal per Mana - 6.67HPM
    - Heal per Second - 15k

    Now in this isolated calculation, Soothing Mist makes an obvious claim to being superior, however it is far from it. Jab is instant, and thus the 1.5s CD is from the GCD and it also means if in melee range, with Serpent's Zeal, you are healing through your Auto Attack damage. You also have to note that the damage you are doing Jab + auto attack damage in this short 1.5s period is making the fight shorter and through multivariable calculations, you can see that your DPS is worth a certain amount of Healing (not through Eminence), this is because of Opportunity Cost. In Lamen's terms, the shorter the fight the less damage people take (Mitigation is tied to healing) which means less healing, but also it means overall the value of your mana increases. I'm not going to go any further, but yes in an isolated system Jab is weaker than SM regarding the laws of probability and long term use, however that is not the case and the fact that SM has an RNG factor to it relates to a ease oflife choice made by the player in which they must choose between higher HPM and HPS or more consistent use of their Chi abilties (which are more effiecient) which have their own HPS and HPM cost.

    All this is of course assuming your numbers are accurate (15k SM, 16k Jab), the formulas for those already exist and can clarify these numbers to a better degree.

    As you can see the Math isn't nearly as clear cut as you would like, and doing the proper Math will give you a good idea of isolated comparisons, however intuition and mathematical analysis will always prove a better statement.


    PS - To all the people who say "I could've figured this all out without the stupid Math"; I'm sure you could've but this kind of analysis isnt so cut and dry based that it only asks from what ability is better, it asks it how much better.
    yeah noticed it after reading your post that i made atleast 1 huge error in which i took the full mana cost of a SM instead of the mana cost for 1 tick making the calculation incorrect.

    those numbers i got from attacking a training dummy and the soothing mist channel from my MSCT. ofc the exact numbers will vary a bit but this was about the avg of heals and dmg i saw popping up.

    but indeed the comparison is infact a lot more difficult then i had thought of at first.
    because taking into account that when a fight is shorter you need less mana regen. you can then put that spirit into intellect which means you hit harder and heal more so making the fight even shorter. and also making the same for the other healers.

    will start using jab more and less SM to get the chi i need.


    p.s @ tatuin. that is indeed true so chi generation from SM is RNG based but it has a 25% proc chance. so for a 4 second channel you on average get 1 chi. 1 chi is worth 3 k mana. so on a channel of 4 seconds which cost 12 k mana you get back 3k making it 9k mana on average per 4 seconds of channel. 9k divided by 4 gives 2.25k mana per second of soothing mist. for jab it comes down to 6k mana per jab. so as zonex explained as well jab is more of a quality of life choice where you can trade less hps and hpm on your main chi generator for a guarenteed chi. where as if you use SM how will have higher hps hpm (only in a case where you ignore the auto attack healing and isloated just these 2 abilities) but are limited to a RNG based chi generation where sometimes you go full channels without chi and other times you get a full bar in 4 seconds.
    Last edited by Imbamouse; 2012-10-26 at 01:14 PM.

  12. #72
    Jab is 1s time cost, monk global is one second.

    Also, your HPS calculation is incorrect. We don't really care about the actual HPS of jab itself, but rather its superior chi generation. More chi per time = more chi abilities per time = more HPS total, which is what we should actually be looking at.

    But that's a much more complex calculation, to the point of requiring sims.

    Also, you can't neglect autoattack damage in your calculation regarding HPS and HPM. When channeling soothing mist you're not autoattacking, but when jabbing you are. The eminence healing is quite nontrivial. Presenting the exception to the numbers in the text is rather misleading.
    Last edited by Dreyo; 2012-10-26 at 07:51 PM.

  13. #73
    That may have been an error on my part, I was under the assumption that MW Monks had a base 1.5s GCD which was affected by haste, and in my calculations I mentioned that 0 haste was the control variable.

    Also, I don't knkow if you are saying "we" as in the collective opinion of yourself and a few MW's that you know, or "we" as in the entire base MW community, but having the full effects of a spell is better than having partial increments of it. Jab has a damage portion, and through class mechanics also has a HPS portion that part is undeniable, it is a Serpent Stance Passive. When comparing two abilities, you often look at the oppotunity cost, and thus overlooking a factor (HPS) which applies to both of them to look at a much harder calculable notion such as "ease of life" is the misleading part.

    The HPS calculation is correct given the information presented and the isolated system presented, the flaws of the system do not come with the calculation, they come with the Conclusion and Evaluation, and they did.

    Your notion of "more chi per time = more chi abilities per time = more HPS total" is something I also addressed, the point of my post was to correct the calculation given the limited parameters, and that I did, everything else was included in the text.

  14. #74
    You don't really need a sim to figure it out....its not that complicated.
    Chi/second
    Mana cost /second
    Healing / second

    Easy.

    However, the real problem is relating this to real game experience.

    PS: According to front page soothing mist will yield 35% chance to proc chi in 5.1 and the cost has been lowered as well...
    PPS: My jab hits for 7k unbuffed. Granted my healing gear is shit, but thats a pretty big difference.
    Last edited by Wushu; 2012-10-27 at 11:53 AM.

  15. #75
    Absolutely love mistweaving. Especially on heroic stone guard, as I have so much spirit I can glyph uplift and spam that like a badass.

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