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  1. #41
    Banned The Fiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rorschachs View Post
    Playing a healer is not that easy.. when your enemy knows how to play.If you don't know what your dps partners need to know about the enemy team, you are not a good healer. I don't really understand your argument about how healers are the deciding factor btw. If you are talking about healers in general..ok ; but most of the comps are decided by their dps and can be played with any healer. If you are bothered with every team having a healer.. nobody likes games that last 15 seconds.


    Healers don't require the full focus of an entire team. You just need to interrupt them and throw some cc to get damage going on. If in 3s you just target your target and focus the healer, you are going to have a bad time.. If your entire team has to focus on the healer to kill them, that is your problem.
    Let me put this into simple terms.

    PvP is not about killing your opponent, it's about your healer getting more healing off than the other guys healer, as a byproduct you die, but really, once your healer dies, you're useless. So many Arena matches have landed where it's a DPS and a healer left, and the DPS can do NOTHING, no matter how skilled, no matter how much he chains his skills to burst and then control. He'll lose, it's actually a big thing to kill a healer solo.

    People complain about DPS self healing when honestly, It is alright, it extends the periods that DPS can stay up by themselves.

    PvP should not be based on how you handle the Healer ONLY, it should be based on full team management.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    Let me put this into simple terms.

    PvP is not about killing your opponent, it's about your healer getting more healing off than the other guys healer, as a byproduct you die, but really, once your healer dies, you're useless. So many Arena matches have landed where it's a DPS and a healer left, and the DPS can do NOTHING, no matter how skilled, no matter how much he chains his skills to burst and then control. He'll lose, it's actually a big thing to kill a healer solo.

    People complain about DPS self healing when honestly, It is alright, it extends the periods that DPS can stay up by themselves.

    PvP should not be based on how you handle the Healer ONLY, it should be based on full team management.
    You are just wrong. Pvp is about damage and control, not healing. Healing done helps, but is never a deciding factor.

    Pvp is not based on how you handle the healer only, it is based on full team management. (at least it was before this patch)

    I feel like you are only talking about 2v2 here.. If you need to cap, just join the queue with another dps and end your games fast. You must be able to control/kill a healer with ease as 2 dps, so it's never an auto lose against a healer.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rorschachs View Post
    You are just wrong. Pvp is about damage and control, not healing. Healing done helps, but is never a deciding factor.

    Pvp is not based on how you handle the healer only, it is based on full team management. (at least it was before this patch)

    I feel like you are only talking about 2v2 here.. If you need to cap, just join the queue with another dps and end your games fast. You must be able to control/kill a healer with ease as 2 dps, so it's never an auto lose against a healer.
    So why is it that throughout Arena history and indeed RBG history, it's all about the healers and controling them. All the better comps have healers. Why? Because healing is such an important factor, due to the way healing works in PvE, you are supposed to stop ONE guy taking supreme damage from a big dragon monster.

    This did not translate well over to PvP at all, especially not with resilience.

    Pvp power broke the mold completely and now you have things like Resto Shaman and Resto Druids being unkillable to all save the best of the best and the broken.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Intoxicated View Post
    Yep, remove self healing from dps as well. I never understood why blizzard gave dps healings. If you wanna play a healer, do so.
    And vice versa, why give healers dps spells.
    Because most healers suck, and don't heal people...or the 'group' as they should
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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duito View Post
    Because most healers suck, and don't heal people...or the 'group' as they should
    Because Blizzard wanted to put the survivability of classes into their own hands to some degree, in both PvP and PvE.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    So why is it that throughout Arena history and indeed RBG history, it's all about the healers and controling them. All the better comps have healers. Why? Because healing is such an important factor, due to the way healing works in PvE, you are supposed to stop ONE guy taking supreme damage from a big dragon monster.

    This did not translate well over to PvP at all, especially not with resilience.

    Pvp power broke the mold completely and now you have things like Resto Shaman and Resto Druids being unkillable to all save the best of the best and the broken.
    I am not saying healing is not an important factor; but it is not as important as you try to make it seem to be. Damage and Control > Healing. This is the same in RBGs and Arenas. Resto druids and shamans are pretty much unkillable if you are not playing a hunter in 2v2. Not the case in 3v3. 2v2 is just for cap, cap fast with a double dps team. I am done discussing now.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rorschachs View Post
    I am not saying healing is not an important factor; but it is not as important as you try to make it seem to be. Damage and Control > Healing. This is the same in RBGs and Arenas. Resto druids and shamans are pretty much unkillable if you are not playing a hunter in 2v2. Not the case in 3v3. 2v2 is just for cap, cap fast with a double dps team. I am done discussing now.
    Well, your first problem is listing healing seperate from Damage, because they're two sides of the exact same coin. And both are in relative nothing compared to control.

    CC, peels, controling cooldowns by bursting or turtling, controling when they use trinket or when they start casting, these are the most important things. Note I never said Healing is broken.

    Healers are broken, they are a target that basically can control the Health of their team, they can remove debuffs, they can stop burst without turtling, they can prevent sustained damage. Healers are not really a support role anymore, they're a controler class, they apply pressure and they remove pressure, and they are the only archtype that does this so effectively, especially considering so many healers have baked in control spells or debuffs anyway.

  8. #48
    I'm trying but I can't forget about warriors and hunters even for a sec... they control PvP at the moment. Go see arena ladder stats!

  9. #49
    Stood in the Fire Tovarish24's Avatar
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    Most of what I want to say has already been said but, @OP, how do Shaman have too many instant heals? Riptide annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd?
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  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Hegemonia View Post
    I'm trying but I can't forget about warriors and hunters even for a sec... they control PvP at the moment. Go see arena ladder stats!
    Outside of one battlegroup I'm actually seeing more priests and mages than hunters and warriors.
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  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by lordzed83 View Post
    I used to love 2v2. Now i fucking hate it !!!
    Atm its or you Global someone or you will never ever kill someone.
    I had 30 minute long arena as warrior drood vs warlock drood. We left cos. After 30 minutes healers ware around 90% mana.

    Ok healers heal they always did. But FFS they are never OOM WTF. At least some time ago they had to drink to get some mana. Now they just are OP.....

    Healing is fine. Infinite mana is fucking not.
    by playing with a healer in 2vs2 you contribute to the annoyance that is healer teams in 2vs2
    every healer can go dps, play two dps in 2vs2 or don't complain

    btw meele selfhealing has to stay for the sake of random groups where the healing tunnels tank, i love being able to save my own ass.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Intoxicated View Post
    Yep, remove self healing from dps as well. I never understood why blizzard gave dps healings. If you wanna play a healer, do so.
    And vice versa, why give healers dps spells.
    If theres a way to stop healers from healing dps i.e. cc's then there has to be a way for the dps to heal themselves otherwise in a single say hex 8sec cc a dps could easily die. Enter Enh sham, only defensive cd that does not involve healing shamanistic rage 30% damage reduction. How am i supposed to survive 8 seconds with only that?

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Intoxicated View Post
    Yep, remove self healing from dps as well. I never understood why blizzard gave dps healings. If you wanna play a healer, do so.
    And vice versa, why give healers dps spells.
    This but bet you would cry being a mage if the took away evocate and healing touch from symbosis

  14. #54
    add a mana drain debuff in combat in arenas/bg, or increased cost of spell in areas/bg, fixed, 1vs1 one dps should win WHEN the healer goes oom.

  15. #55
    Blizzard doesn't balance for 1v1. And for good reason. This is an MMORPG not an FPS. I also cannot believe a warrior, the most overpowered class right now by far (Due to the first batch of hunter nerfs that are already in) is complaining. You have it lucky man. And no rofl Monk healers are not OP. How many do you see high rated? And no it isn't because its a new class and no one has rolled one. DKs were the most represented in their first PVP season and they were stupidly overpowered as everyone knows.

    I'd say healers are mostly balanced. None are overpowered at least. Resto Shaman are king due to tremor totem. It's just too good and imo needs to be removed or give all other healers something similar. Druids and HPallys are well balanced. Disc Priests however are disgustingly terrible right now, and Monk Healers are meh. They're a lot stronger in battlegrounds than arenas though.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Vormav View Post
    Blizzard doesn't balance for 1v1. And for good reason. This is an MMORPG not an FPS.
    How is that a good reason?
    Being balanced means that I can run any class and have a viable chance at killing anyone at any time, but on a fair playing field.
    By not balancing that, its people running OP classes and facerolling the keyboard. Of course the higher echelon of players still remain at the top, but that is due to their skill as players not their class. Having balance creates a higher skill gap between the players and puts emphasis on playing what you want and what you are good at, not whats good atm. Unlike what currently being done.
    Last edited by Mystyrion; 2012-10-27 at 07:32 AM.

  17. #57
    I think most people underestimate the subject. Its way more complicated than to be OP or not to. The transition from WOTLK to Cata destroyed most of the meta game in Arena and MoP follows that role.

    For the most part, Dmg AND healing AND Control were all legimitate ways the "play", but you could aswell play "around it". If your 2 dps outplayed the other 2 dps you could life pretty long (abusing the game mechanics) while your healer is ccd. The system of the amount of CC (and how to apply them) vs. dmg/healing/position/deff cds/off cds was balanced. It was logical what happens next (to some extent). Every player had an huge amount of influence of the match (basically, 1 dps could boost the other 2 by ~ 300 points). The playstyle was way more important than cds available. Anyone could easily "turn the tides" through outplay.

    And what happened to Cata is that the skillcapp of healers has skyrocket and i think thats the case for MoP aswell. Dont get me wrong, at the same time, the skillcapp of all players has decreased. Its just like sc2, if your "behind" its incredible hard to come back, in some cases even impossible (especially against melee cleave).

    Again, your own play was never this useless. Its way more important what your class brings to the table or what cds are left (to some extent and at some level of play).

    The language barrier stops me from explaining it accurate, but i hope someone gets my point.

    regards

    tl;dr

    Its just to easy to counter your opponent or to punish him for bad play and mistakes, where at the same time, its to unrewarding to do so, seems very wierd

    Edit: We are WAAAY beyond the point that some simple balance fixes do the trick, if anybody cares
    Last edited by Agnaea; 2012-10-27 at 08:03 AM.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Lefrog View Post
    Yes healers are OP at 1v1, and maybe at 2v1 too if they are good. But Blizzard lowest balance bracket is 3v3, and imo healers are not invincible there.
    Try 5, 6 and 7 v 1 too (no joke)

    BUT that's not really op. that's smart playing, rolling CDs, RNG (divine purpose chains, crits), and bad players attacking who waste interrupts on the first cast bar they see or miss completely from being juked. And if the enemy force isn't thinned down or neutralized by the time a healer cycles through their cooldowns...healer dies. I don't really look at the as being OP.

    Consider this too: dps that know how to peel are quite a find in random bgs...if they are there and they are doing it, ANY healer will seem like a god because they have help. Most just tunnel vision the healer and don't realize he or she is probably working with his team not flying solo.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-27 at 09:07 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Nosferato View Post
    add a mana drain debuff in combat in arenas/bg, or increased cost of spell in areas/bg, fixed, 1vs1 one dps should win WHEN the healer goes oom.
    That's not a skillful or reliable tactical approach to beating a healer. Oh I'll just beat on him until he runs out of Mana nbd. Don't think that would work out well if any dps can beat any healer just by sitting on them until they oom because their spells were made to cost an ass ton of mana...no thanks.
    Last edited by Theholypally; 2012-10-27 at 09:02 AM.

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  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Sikend View Post
    Yeah 2s right now. is just no fun lol matches last way to long. but i guess thats how its supposed to be since theres no balance for2s
    theres no balance in 3vs3/5vs5...

  20. #60
    I remember when DPS specs had no self heals, healers were killable 1v1.
    Funnily enough those were the most fun/balanced times in PvP

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