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  1. #1
    Legendary! Sorrior's Avatar
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    Trouble gaining threat in raids

    So i did a trial run in LFR with my guild yesterday and the only real problem i had(that was unrelated to talking or being new to tanking) was getting threat off of our druid when needed. Now I was wondering if anyone had any advice. Oh the fights were Stoneguard and Feng the Accursed. Our Aror profiles are

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...urazaki/simple for me and

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...%a3rius/simple


    First off i KNOW i'm over hit and expertise cap. I've tried lowering it but i;m at an odd place where i change things around AT AL and i get blow by even .1%. So yeah i kinda figure i'll take over for now.

    Second i realize i need a better weapon and trinket but the RNG gods have not been kind(NO Slicer off of Horseman, NO gear AT ALL after doing LFR for a total of 9 AND using 3 of the extra loot items) so yeah kinda stuck there.

    When asked to taunt off on feng i used Provoke right away but he kept getting it back almost instantly. So i used provoke and then spamming our big taunt skills with still no go.

    So yeah is there anything i can do to help out rotation or gear wise?

  2. #2
    If it's Stoneguard and Feng, then just taunt. The Druid should be intelligent enough to stop attacking when you taunt. The thing is, the way Vengeance works if the old tank keeps attacking then they are GOING to pull aggro, no matter how good the new tank is. So yeah, this doesn't seem like your issue: it seems like it's the Druid's, who kept attacking with high vengeance. Tell him to knock it off.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Kisho View Post
    If it's Stoneguard and Feng, then just taunt. The Druid should be intelligent enough to stop attacking when you taunt. The thing is, the way Vengeance works if the old tank keeps attacking then they are GOING to pull aggro, no matter how good the new tank is. So yeah, this doesn't seem like your issue: it seems like it's the Druid's, who kept attacking with high vengeance. Tell him to knock it off.
    This basically, I started to get a bit nasty with the other tank when doing Chimaeron because of this. Tanks should really either just autoattack or stop attacking for a few seconds if they need to after being taunted off. It is likely to cause your raid a lot more problems with a Tank getting hit when they shouldn't than the small amount of damage the raid gains from them nuking throughout.

  4. #4
    have you any dps cd you can use? I don´t play a monk at all, so i have no clue. But as paladin i pop wings and nuke away, that usually makes the trick. Make sure you have full chi aswell i guess when you taunt so you can get right on it

  5. #5
    Herald of the Titans Nikkaszal's Avatar
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    Try popping Avert Harm before your first taunt to give yourself a little Vengeance from the other tank's spill over damage.

    Once your Vengeance begins ramping up, provided you are executing your moves solidly (don't forget to Tiger Palm. Whenever you have a free GCD then there should be NOTHING that can rip threat from a monk tank.

    Hell, I've taken aggro off other tanks during LFR without even using Provoke sometimes. Brewmaster damage is stupidly high in raids ATM
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  6. #6
    Can you cancel the Vengeance aura ?? Just get the tank your taunting off to make a macro for that if possible.

  7. #7
    It´s not your fault, blame the other tank.
    When he is not supposed to have aggro he is not supposed to do attacks.
    If he really thinks that his damage plays a role, thne he might want to switch to cat for doing so.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorrior View Post
    When asked to taunt off on feng i used Provoke right away but he kept getting it back almost instantly. So i used provoke and then spamming our big taunt skills with still no go.

    So yeah is there anything i can do to help out rotation or gear wise?
    what do you mean big taunt skills? what abilities are you using and what priority are you giving them?

    personally, i have no problems with threat at all, in fact, i'm the threat hog compared to our paladin tank.

    to pull, i keg smash, blackout kick, expel harm, tigerpalm, tigerpalm, jab, tigerpalm, guard(3 stack), keg smash, blackout kick, then i use blackout kick every time i have 2 chi until guard comes off cooldown and use tigerpalm when i dont have enough energy to jab or keg smash.

    use expel harm on cooldown (same energy cost as jab, but does more damage and heals you)
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  9. #9
    Herald of the Titans Nikkaszal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smokii View Post
    what do you mean big taunt skills? what abilities are you using and what priority are you giving them?

    personally, i have no problems with threat at all, in fact, i'm the threat hog compared to our paladin tank.

    to pull, i keg smash, blackout kick, expel harm, tigerpalm, tigerpalm, jab, tigerpalm, guard(3 stack), keg smash, blackout kick, then i use blackout kick every time i have 2 chi until guard comes off cooldown and use tigerpalm when i dont have enough energy to jab or keg smash.

    use expel harm on cooldown (same energy cost as jab, but does more damage and heals you)
    Don't use Expel Harm unless youll get the full heal out of it. Not only do you not want to waste it overhealing, it also only deals damage relative to its effective healing.

    So if youre just mashing EH on CD, and you happen to be at full HP when you hit it, then youve not only wasted a potent self-heal but youll also deal zero damage.
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Nikkaszal View Post
    Don't use Expel Harm unless youll get the full heal out of it. Not only do you not want to waste it overhealing, it also only deals damage relative to its effective healing.

    So if youre just mashing EH on CD, and you happen to be at full HP when you hit it, then youve not only wasted a potent self-heal but youll also deal zero damage.
    thanks for the tip, i did not know the damage was related to the heal, i thought it just did a flat amount based on AP/vengeance... ah well, i doubt it's made that much of a considerable difference so far, as i only tend to use it when not at full health, otherwise it's jab jab jab - i do tend to use it when pulling, but only because thats when i'm most squishy and my healers are still kinda half asleep, also, it's one of the only abilities you can use to pre-build 1 chi before pulling...

    meh i wont argue the toss over how i use it to pull, whether or not it's a bad idea or even necessary... but the damage component being linked to the self heal is useful to know.
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  11. #11
    Legendary! Sorrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smokii View Post
    what do you mean big taunt skills? what abilities are you using and what priority are you giving them?

    personally, i have no problems with threat at all, in fact, i'm the threat hog compared to our paladin tank.

    to pull, i keg smash, blackout kick, expel harm, tigerpalm, tigerpalm, jab, tigerpalm, guard(3 stack), keg smash, blackout kick, then i use blackout kick every time i have 2 chi until guard comes off cooldown and use tigerpalm when i dont have enough energy to jab or keg smash.

    use expel harm on cooldown (same energy cost as jab, but does more damage and heals you)
    Big threat? Keg Smash man. I used that RIGHt after provoke and he still had boss. I added in throwing some barrels at him and he still got it. Gonna try Avert Harm later on though.

    And thanks for all the advice guys.

  12. #12
    I would advise you to just make the other tank watch what they are doing. I ended up fishing for sacred duty procs on my Paladin before a switch in Cata and it was just completely unnecessary and did actually cause a couple of wipes.

    If you would rather have a threat war with another tank though I guess that is up to you.

  13. #13
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorrior View Post
    So yeah is there anything i can do to help out rotation or gear wise?
    You could get a bit out of your reforging: http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/u...eas/sakurazaki (I wouldn't bother with Dancing Steel on a 463 weapon though)
    But 0.54% more haste isn't going to fix threat issues.

    I'm in agreement with others though we are actually threat hogs compared to most other tanks. Just using Provoke should do the trick so either your not keeping up a solid rotation or bear is taunting/not backing off a little as needed. Have him install Omen or something should make it obvious if he is going to yank back threat from you.

    Actually in LFR last night this pally got pretty upset thinking we would "share" tanking spirit kings and sent me nasty whispers when I tanked like 90% of the fight just by doing my rotation. Ended up 2nd in DPS and I'm still using a 463 weapon.

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  14. #14
    Legendary! Sorrior's Avatar
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    Yeah i SHOULD be about right for priorities(a lenghthy list is kinda normal for me coming from 6 years as ENH) so yeah i'll ask him. Guild leader wants us to run LFR together anyways before i at least join core so we can work it out that way or while gear farming LOL.

  15. #15
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorrior View Post
    Yeah i SHOULD be about right for priorities(a lenghthy list is kinda normal for me coming from 6 years as ENH) so yeah i'll ask him. Guild leader wants us to run LFR together anyways before i at least join core so we can work it out that way or while gear farming LOL.
    You can always post a log we could at least see if your doing things right which would default to something the bear is doing. Would be a good idea because imo the problem should be the other way around and you should be stealing the boss from the bear if anything.

    Also, are you going past 2-3 stacks before taunting? Was wondering if maybe you were losing vengeance stacks between taunts.

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  16. #16
    Legendary! Sorrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SurrealNight View Post
    You can always post a log we could at least see if your doing things right which would default to something the bear is doing. Would be a good idea because imo the problem should be the other way around and you should be stealing the boss from the bear if anything.

    Also, are you going past 2-3 stacks before taunting? Was wondering if maybe you were losing vengeance stacks between taunts.
    I may not have much vengeance period.

    But after asking he said i seemed to be targeting crystal by mistake so one of us may have been on the wrong target.

  17. #17
    The Patient Valient's Avatar
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    I'd suggest using an addon that announces your taunts, yes you feel like a dick when you taunt the wrong target, but better admit your mistakes and learn straight away than repeat them over and over.

    When is this taunting issue happening? Is it early on in the fight or is it throughout?

    The way in which taunt works is by putting you above the top threat by 10%, so the druid would need to do 11% of your total threat more (on top of any threat you generate after the taunt) than you are doing over a short period, this should be pretty hard to achieve anything after the first 30 seconds or so in the fight as 10% becomes more and more total threat that they would need to deal with.

    One thing I have noticed which can be annoying is the way in which tricks and MD's react these days, the threat they do fades after x seconds (30 iirc) if you taunt the boss then the threat fades from you not from the person they were cast on from what I can see, this can contribute to the mob jumping back to the original tank sometimes. Not a huge amount you can do about that, so if you taunt during the 35-45 second mark in a fight, then the original tank needs to be extra careful.

  18. #18
    Brewmaster Jess Day's Avatar
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    to pull, i keg smash, blackout kick, expel harm, tigerpalm, tigerpalm, jab, tigerpalm, guard(3 stack), keg smash, blackout kick, then i use
    Dont try and get up a 3 stack guard immediately, you'll lose stagger.

    Keg Smash into Blackout Kick, then weave tiger palms between jabs while making sure stagger doesnt drop. Try and save guard for a few seconds because it scales with vengeance. I personally prefer to save Guard for when i know spike damage is imminent, healers should be healing you enough on the pull for you to not need it.

    The biggest problem i have right now is not overaggroing the other tank when he taunts while trying to keep my stagger up. Not attacking and losing stagger duration isn't really great in practice.

  19. #19
    sounds like it is an issue with the other tank...he can't keep it in his pants when you taunt.. Tell him to Learn to Play and to watch threat.

  20. #20
    Legendary! Sorrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valient View Post
    I'd suggest using an addon that announces your taunts, yes you feel like a dick when you taunt the wrong target, but better admit your mistakes and learn straight away than repeat them over and over.

    When is this taunting issue happening? Is it early on in the fight or is it throughout?

    The way in which taunt works is by putting you above the top threat by 10%, so the druid would need to do 11% of your total threat more (on top of any threat you generate after the taunt) than you are doing over a short period, this should be pretty hard to achieve anything after the first 30 seconds or so in the fight as 10% becomes more and more total threat that they would need to deal with.

    One thing I have noticed which can be annoying is the way in which tricks and MD's react these days, the threat they do fades after x seconds (30 iirc) if you taunt the boss then the threat fades from you not from the person they were cast on from what I can see, this can contribute to the mob jumping back to the original tank sometimes. Not a huge amount you can do about that, so if you taunt during the 35-45 second mark in a fight, then the original tank needs to be extra careful.
    Do you have any advice for such an addon?

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