Wow, heroics are heroic indeed.

[Sre]

At this point it's about the gear. Going into DS most people had a mix of Heroic FL/Normal FL gear, and after weeks of farming FL after having been nerfed, most rosters went in with everyone floating around the same ilvl. This go around, people had a week to hit 90 and gear up for normals. They had a week to clear normals and prep for heroics the next week. Do you see the problem? It's weeks of Heroic FL gearing vs 2 weeks of gearing from 5 mans and what you can get from crafting/pvp/Normal MSV.

[speakpkhq]

??? i went into all heroics blind and in LFGs (pugs) as a dps (mage) and had absolutely no issues downing anything, at any time, whatsoever. i have had a few groups that have wiped because of bad trash pulls, but never from a boss lol.

[silverhatred]

1. 3tank heroic 10m stone guards
2. have 3rd tank just run around and do tiles spec makes him get no jasper chains
3. ???
4. profit

[Deleted]

??? i went into all heroics blind and in LFGs (pugs) as a dps (mage) and had absolutely no issues downing anything, at any time, whatsoever. i have had a few groups that have wiped because of bad trash pulls, but never from a boss lol.

I think you've misunderstood this thread. It is about raids, not dungeons.

[Angarin]

Lets compare.

Dungeons each expansion during they're current content roll (meaning running them during within 4 months of releasing)

Classic 50+ dungeons (strath/scholo/brd/brs) - These just required a bit of cc & were easily done. I mostly relied on tank/healing gear. Obviously if your dps knew what they were doing it'd go faster. On terms of difficulty I'd give it about 4/10. Not difficult but if nobody actually used they're class tools it just became to difficult.

TBC Heroics - These were a bit aside the classic dungeons. If your tank/healer knew what they were doing & had decent gear going into these as well as depending on they're class it became alot easier. I can name a few that prot paladins were much better at than prot warriors/druids & healing as a holy paladin was just hell til I got kara gear. Magisters terrace was just hell...we'll leave it at that. Release heroics I'd give about 7/10 & magisters 9/10.

Wrath Heroics - Some of these were actually difficult similar to how some are now. I'd especially bring up AK & HoL. I ran in there with mostly level 75 gear as I didn't know where to get any blues at the time & nobody was really 80 yet so no crafting gear. About 50% of these if you had a terrible pug you were not getting past the first or second boss. If you had a guild group or just had a good group in general it made it especially easier. The difference in tank/healer combos made hardly the difference. Holy paladins were obviously much better though at the beginning. 3.2 & 3.3 dungeons were slightly easy in heroic difficulty with the exception of halls of reflection. I think I managed to get through that twice and only with a guild group, don't remember getting through it with any pugs. Release heroics I'd give a 3/10 & 3.2 2/10 & 3.3 5/10.

Cata heroics - This is where it gets interesting. These were probably the most difficult we'd had so far (excluding challenge modes). We had decent gear going into these 316/333 & we just got pummeled. Even once we learned the fights we just had to push our very hardest use every cc we had to get past them. I remember my first grim batol successful clear was because we had a warlock. Why? He used his succubus for cc. We had 2 cc from him, a shaman for bind & to many stuns to count. Even the last boss was because of him. He'd multi dot it then find the one with lowest health & just soul drain. The adds didn't even get remotely close to the eggs. Obviously these heroics were easier once people knew the mechanics which most of us didn't but even when we learned them our prone to death was still slightly higher. As far as 4.3 heroics like someone said if you didn't pay attention to mechanics you weren't going to live. I'd give release an 8/10 and 4.3 a 5/10.

MoP heroics - These are just...so piss easy. I actually managed to talk a group into having the healer go dps & we just healed ourselves. Keep in mind this was even shado pan monastary. And we were able to clear it. We downed the first boss with it but I just suggested it & nobody disagreed. The third boss was obviously hard & trash between 3/4th boss was used. This just goes to show that MoP heroics are just to easy but blizzard designed it this way so I guess w/e. Obviously with stupid people it'll look difficult but it really isn't. The amount of self healing & damage reduction cooldowns people have to keep themselves up is just dumb to say you die anymore in this game unless it was someone else's fault. I tanked the first boss & trash to second as an enhance shaman tanks to stone bulwark, hex, interrupts & many other healing & dmg reduc cd's. I'm sure a warlock with demo spec could do it easily with the glyph & probably many other specs if they were smart. I'd give these a 2/10 maybe...a 3/10.

[XanderJS]

I enjoyed your post angarin and agree with what you said. This thread is about raids though.....

[Deleted]

ive only downed 3 heroic encounters by now but i find them quite underwhelming. its not that much more difficult than normal with 1-2 ids of more gear and the added mechanics feel like placeholders....

i mean come on. stoneguards feel like nhc with only an added dmg buff. feng has an added healer mana regeneration phase (lol?????) and garajal simply gives you a debuff that doesnt allow you to chainvisit the spiritworld. elegon forces 3 ppl to cuddle the tank while annihilate. otherwise numbers are slightly less forgiving and thats it.
spirit kings is the only fight ive seen so far, that feels different so far.
its gonna be the easies heroi raids of all tiers when you are decked in 496 normal gear, which aint bad per se if you only use said encounters to gear up for the heroic encounters in the 2 new raids

[Deleted]

ive only downed 3 heroic encounters by now but i find them quite underwhelming. its not that much more difficult than normal with 1-2 ids of more gear and the added mechanics feel like placeholders....

i mean come on. stoneguards feel like nhc with only an added dmg buff. feng has an added healer mana regeneration phase (lol?????) and garajal simply gives you a debuff that doesnt allow you to chainvisit the spiritworld. elegon forces 3 ppl to cuddle the tank while annihilate. otherwise numbers are slightly less forgiving and thats it.
spirit kings is the only fight ive seen so far, that feels different so far.
its gonna be the easies heroi raids of all tiers when you are decked in 496 normal gear, which aint bad per se if you only use said encounters to gear up for the heroic encounters in the 2 new raids

Current tuning is ok considering this is the first instance of 3. Getting gear to progress is 1 of the best examples of how the game should work for those not in top raiding guilds.

Also, of course the core mechanics of the fights aren't going to change. This was never really the case, it was always normal fight + bigger numbers + 1 or 2 mechanics.

[Bizerk]

If you compare this tier to tier11 which you should in the first place, it feels about even in difficulty.

[Izenhart]

They are good, probably not as good as Ulduar ones, but still better than most of the content in the last 2 expansions.

And wait until you get to HC Spirit Kings, what awaits me tomorrow is going to be 9 hours of a lone genius oneshotting 20 players because stopping your DPS is too damn hard.

[Thicky]

I don't know what game you are playing but I haven't wiped a single time in any heroic since release...
Challenge modes on the other hand is a challenge.

[KaPe]

I don't know what game you are playing but I haven't wiped a single time in any heroic since release...
Challenge modes on the other hand is a challenge.

Unfortunately, you seem to have wiped in Reading classes, as this thread is about raids.

Unless you are just that godly and one shotted everything up to 6/6H.

[Kralljin]

I don't know what game you are playing but I haven't wiped a single time in any heroic since release...
Challenge modes on the other hand is a challenge.

Probably talking about Heroic Mogu'shan Vaults?

MSV is different from previous instances, tanks have actually an important duty beyond tanking the boss.

They need to handle the energy on Stone guard.

Special Abilities on Feng.

And dodging devastating combo on WotE, which is crucial for boss dps.

It's not much, but much more compared to other raids.

[Softbottom]

They seem harder because you didn't come into this raid with Heroic Firelands raid gear that you had been farming for 8 months; You came in with heroic dungeon gear and a few epics.

[cyqu]

There is almost nothing to heal, if people stand in pools, crystals or take the wrong buff to light up tiles, it's their fault. The tank damage is only high(at least on the tank that takes 2 dogs).

We had our fair share of wipes last night on Stone Guards 25m HC, the boss isn't too hard, people(read: melee) just fail at mechanics. We had a good try last night that lasted about 6 min 15 sec but we already had 4-5 people dead at that point :/

Your callin the fight easy yet you have yet to down it?

---------- Post added 2012-10-27 at 04:59 PM ----------

As a raider since vanilla, i must say these are the hardest raids along with ulduar.
Every boss has 3-4 stages with different abilities, and needs full concetration of all the raid just to pown a boss at normal
Its a mistake to compare MSV with DS. totaly different stage, if u must compare it with 4.0 when ppl start raiding then with blue hc and rep gear as now, not with over tier hc gear...
I m so satisfied of the new mechanics, at last Blizz used some imagination, not much some, but the made a challenging raid. WELL DONE

You obviously haven't raided much in the past 8 years then.

---------- Post added 2012-10-27 at 05:01 PM ----------

RNG difficulty fight ASSEMBLE!

Other then the spawns of each boss which you can just reset until you get the prefered Order how is it rng.

[Kralljin]

Other then the spawns of each boss which you can just reset until you get the prefered Order how is it rng.

Qiang -> Zian -> Meng -> Subetai.

Fight is already 4 minutes going until you can see if you get a decent comb or a not so decent comb.

Meng as 2nd is almost unplayable, Meng as 3rd will cause the last phase to be a major in the ass, it is playable but still much harder than Meng as last.