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  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by Moonfaxx View Post
    So the 10-man guilds tell all the 25-man guilds, "Boo hoo, you can't complain. You can still do 25-man if you want, no one is forcing you to do 10s. Let the chips fall as they may, and see what people choose. If 10s win out, so be it. The people have spoken."

    Suddenly, with the prospect of this one day coming to US realms, the 10s are crying foul. No complaints allowed. No one will be forcing you to run 25s. Better gear certainly won't make it a requirement. To you I will say, "Boo hoo, you can't complain. You can still do 10-man if you want, no one is forcing you to do 25s. Let the chips fall as they may, and see what people choose. If 25s win out, so be it. The people have spoken."
    The difference is that there was no incentive either way. You raid what you prefer. This change weighs every single aspect of raiding in 25s favor again, just like WotLK. Your post doesn't make any fucking sense.

  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by araine View Post
    Which was terrible.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-25 at 10:01 AM ----------



    It becomes MANDATORY since you MUST run it or you will get fucked royally on gear. MANDATORY to run BOTH 10 and 25 . And this will make me quite the game for the 1st time since 2004
    Nope. You don't HAVE to run 25s just because they have better gear.

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by araine View Post
    Which was terrible.
    There was never a perfect system. Each one had bad side.

    Classic/TBC: different 10/20 and 25/40 instances. Best guilds were poaching players from less progressed guilds, less progressed guilds were stuck on infinite circle of gearing up players just to see them move on when they got shinies.

    WoTLK: running same instance twice a week. Up to 4 times during ToC patch. Gear resets every patch, making progression meaningless.

    Cataclysm: death of 25 man guilds, except for hardcore guilds. Many realms no longer have any 25 man guilds at all. Gear resets every patch, making progression meaningless.

    4.3 and MoP: same as Cata + LFR, so people are running same instance twice a week.

    Whatever Blizzard does, there will always be unhappy players.
    Skinning a bear should aggro every bears in a 40 yard radius. It makes sense, you are actually skinning their best friend.

  4. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by Binki View Post
    I'd love to see that on all realms. It would help bring together communities.

    However, 3 modes (10, 25, LFR) is too much. I think best solution would be to share 25 and LFR lockouts. Then people trying to max out their gear won't feel like having to farm 3 instances a week (they'll farm 2, like they do now).
    Or optimally Blizzard could give us 2 lockouts and let us choose what to use them on.. If you do 10 and 25 you can't do LFR that week. If you do 10 and LFR you can't do 25, etc.

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by Shmeh View Post
    The difference is that there was no incentive either way. You raid what you prefer. This change weighs every single aspect of raiding in 25s favor again, just like WotLK. Your post doesn't make any fucking sense.
    You're right, this is exactly the point. There was no incentive to do more work for equal reward. Likewise, if this change were to go live on US/EU realms, the incentive would fit the workload. Win-win.

  6. #226
    Herald of the Titans Seriss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TobiasX View Post
    I've not done enough of both to say on the first part but I agree that you can afford to lose more people on 25-man, because it's a smaller proportion of your group. I like to think of a team member dying on 25-man being roughly equal to a hunter / warlock / death knight pet dying on 10-man: annoying, but an inconvenience rather than wipemaker.
    During progress, you cannot afford losing people on either size. Some encounters will allow you to brush over a mistake or two, mostly at the cost of healer mana, but you cannot generalize just like that. For 25-man, it may result in not meeting the enrage timer when a single dps dies. For 10-man, it's the same. Or healer mana may become problematic. Or if a tank dies on Stone Guard, their energy bars will ensure that you're screwed on either difficulty.

    It's always been like that.

    Also, some encounters are more manageable in 25-man as opposed to their 10-man counterpart.
    And, some encounters are more manageable in 10-man as opposed to their 25-man counterpart.

    It depends on encounter-design. Encounters that require people to perform various tasks but at the same time have mechanisms that disable some people from performing them occasionally are naturally a greater hassle on 10-man than on 25-man. You have more people to fill in when the primary people temporarily cannot perform that task. On the other hand, you have encounters that require the raid to spread out, and still everyone needs to be in healing range. Way easier to handle for a 10-man.

    Communication on TS/vent is also easier for a 10-man. We've had moments where various people were announcing important things... In my former 25-man raids, it was much more quiet with mostly the raid leader and the officers speaking up - unless in cases of emergency. In 25-man, I never felt like I had so much responsibility as a healer as I now do, when I raid 10-man (it sort of reminds me of when way back, I healed LK hc 10-man on an off-night, 2 healed, me being shaman... and nobody in their right mind actually wanted to bring a shaman there, at least not before the buff had stacked up to 30%. It was exhausting. So much depended on me. It was a step up from 25-man there, seriously). If you had asked me six months ago, I'd have said "Me, raiding 10-mans? Go away, 25-mans are way more epic. You'll not see me dead going 10-man with my main." Times change. People change. Old friendships break and new ones form. The raid that you're in now may in a few months no longer be the one that you want to be in, and you might leave and form a new one with people who grew on you.

    Oh and, just to be an annoying person, I'll state: "A dps player cannot fathom the levels of difficulty of a raid size." I've raided enough on my dps alts to be able to say that, on most encounters, it made no difference to me if there were 9 or 24 more people in the raid. I was just performing my rotation and pushing Hymn of Hope and the likes when told to do so. When I heal, I feel more of a difference. Some encounters compliment my playstyle and class mechanics more than others, meaning that I will be performing better and more easily on one raid size than I do on the other.

    Okay, Stone Guard is an example, where a dps player has to be on their toes about chains and lighting up tiles, but that one's a classic example where having more people to fill in for lighting tiles when the usual people are chained to something unfortunate is an advantage. It's silly to see how 25-mans can light up the entire room with ease. But they get an additional mechanic to deal with, and they have more people that can fail on them (which they shouldn't but... we've all raided enough to know that people don't always do as they should, and that factor is multiplied by 2.5 in the larger raid size when you look at the average, non world top 100 area. Because the people up there fail less, independent of their respective raid format).

    I suppose the point of this entire rant here is: Why do we even care? So much of what we're discussing here are entirely subjective impressions! Anecdotal evidence! Differences in setup! Picking the best 10 out of a roster of 30+ people (trust me, I've been there too), and then claiming that it's all so much easier. It's not. It's not all just black and white. There are too many variables to give an objective point of view. Which is why arguments like this are totally pointless. And yet I'm participating in them all the time, if only to counteract all the one-liners that just flame around.

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    For anyone who is complaining abt 25 man dps reqs, there are things like skull banner and storm lash nowdays, which 25 man gets to pop pretty much every 30 secs-1 min when on 10 man you get 1 or 2 tops per 3 mins, in 25 man you can chain skull banners to last the whole burn phase also, so naturally the dps req should be higher per person than what it is in 10 man. If it aint well then 25 man would be far far easyer than 10 mans. And even atm it is happening cause for a 10 man bringing 2 warrior or is allready kinda not optimal in setup design
    Because in 25 man you have 10 warriors and 10 shaman all the time. Good to know, didn't hear I was out of a raiding spot till now. Think just a little before you post.

  8. #228
    Pandaren Monk nalle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moonfaxx View Post
    So the 10-man guilds tell all the 25-man guilds, "Boo hoo, you can't complain. You can still do 25-man if you want, no one is forcing you to do 10s. Let the chips fall as they may, and see what people choose. If 10s win out, so be it. The people have spoken."

    Suddenly, with the prospect of this one day coming to US realms, the 10s are crying foul. No complaints allowed. No one will be forcing you to run 25s. Better gear certainly won't make it a requirement. To you I will say, "Boo hoo, you can't complain. You can still do 10-man if you want, no one is forcing you to do 25s. Let the chips fall as they may, and see what people choose. If 25s win out, so be it. The people have spoken."
    Indeed, it goes both ways. Many seem to forget that.

    As for this endless discussion about what raid size is the most difficult, it depends on the boss and what abilities the boss uses during the fight as well as what classes/buffs you have in the raid group when you fight them.

    Some bosses are harder on 10 man, some are harder on 25 man (an example is that it's easier for 10 players to spread out in the same sized area as 25 players have to use).


    To the people wishing for 15 man raids only, I say screw you. As I personally don't want to raid 10 man or 15 man, I would like to keep my 25 man option thank you very much.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellspawnxxx View Post
    Thank god you posted that pic done by Da Vinci The vitruvian man because to be honest I had NOOOO Idea what a Human body looked liked therefor had NO idea what you were refering too. With that said the sylvari are made of lettuce. If I twist up some cabage leaves too look like a human, it doesnt make it monohuman.
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    That picture has four arms and four legs. It's not a human, so it's clearly a spider.

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by Unknown User View Post
    Or optimally Blizzard could give us 2 lockouts and let us choose what to use them on.. If you do 10 and 25 you can't do LFR that week. If you do 10 and LFR you can't do 25, etc.
    Good idea
    Skinning a bear should aggro every bears in a 40 yard radius. It makes sense, you are actually skinning their best friend.

  10. #230
    Whats up with better loot for 25mans? I'd say thats pretty retarded and I really hope that doesnt come to EU-servers or I'd be royally pissed with Blizzard.

  11. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by Racthoh View Post
    basically it's not hard to pve dps. if the "requirements" are higher, than there is obviously more opportunity to sit there and dps than in 10s.
    Most DPS checks require you to just (mostly) sit there and DPS so I'm not sure where you are seeing this increase in oportunity...

    Seriously DO run the numbers instead of attempting to make excuses. The extra leeway 10 man gets allows for poorer play, messing up your rotation, missing a few globals, and still meeting the DPS requirements without a sweat.

  12. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by Trollfaced View Post
    Whats up with better loot for 25mans? I'd say thats pretty retarded and I really hope that doesnt come to EU-servers or I'd be royally pissed with Blizzard.
    Why would you be pissed?

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by Moonfaxx View Post
    You're right, this is exactly the point. There was no incentive to do more work for equal reward. Likewise, if this change were to go live on US/EU realms, the incentive would fit the workload. Win-win.
    False. As some random chucklefuck in a 25 man you do no extra work. You don't deserve an extra reward raiding 25 because you prefer 25. The workload falls on the raid leader and officers.

  14. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by brirrspliff View Post
    no. if, share 10 and LFR lockouts.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-25 at 10:02 AM ----------


    25 is still harder in every aspect. so why not?
    It depends from fight to fight. Good example would be DS where Hagara was quite easy in 10 man while Warmaster Backhorn was tough especially if you didn't have dk for deathgrip. From what I've heard in 25 man it was quite the opposite. 25 man have more issues with running and managing the guild but I'd prefer to be allowed to choose what I want to raid and not being forced instead. Current model is not perfect but at least both raid sizes can compete. As I said earlier this change would scratch 10 mans out of the table. Plus with amount of time I spend at work raiding 25 & 10 man would be impossible for me. Let's leave as it is now.

  15. #235
    I dont know why people are so pissed, though i see this as to little to late. Would have been a good move durring cata but meh now. I dont get why people are mad about the item levels, if all your going to do is 10mans then why does 25mans item level affect you at all? No one says you have to do 25mans. 10mans will be perfectly managable with the item level it has now. With the advent of 10man guilds alot of servers became ghost towns with alot of 25man guilds dying and smaller 10man guilds forming but in the process forming a smaller community and alot of times shutting themselfs out. Iv done both 10 and 25 and enjoyed 25 far more, servers were more active and fun durring the wrath days.

    And i must say again, NO ONE IS FORCED to raid 25mans.

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeta333 View Post
    I dont know why people are so pissed, though i see this as to little to late. Would have been a good move durring cata but meh now. I dont get why people are mad about the item levels, if all your going to do is 10mans then why does 25mans item level affect you at all? No one says you have to do 25mans. 10mans will be perfectly managable with the item level it has now. With the advent of 10man guilds alot of servers became ghost towns with alot of 25man guilds dying and smaller 10man guilds forming but in the process forming a smaller community and alot of times shutting themselfs out. Iv done both 10 and 25 and enjoyed 25 far more, servers were more active and fun durring the wrath days.

    And i must say again, NO ONE IS FORCED to raid 25mans.
    Fun is subjective. This stomps out 10 man because quality players will go where the superior loot is.

  17. #237
    I wouldn't mind the separate lockouts so much, but better gear just because your guild has more active raiders? No sir, wouldn't like that at all. I already felt like a second class raider during wotlk because 25s got better gear AND were the only ones to get legendaries

  18. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by Shmeh View Post
    False. As some random chucklefuck in a 25 man you do no extra work. You don't deserve an extra reward raiding 25 because you prefer 25. The workload falls on the raid leader and officers.
    Oh good, that's me. Thanks!

  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by dakalro View Post
    Because in 25 man you have 10 warriors and 10 shaman all the time. Good to know, didn't hear I was out of a raiding spot till now. Think just a little before you post.
    skull banner dropped down every 30 seconds would need you to have 6 warriors, sure might be a bit of stretch but it is possible in 25 man, every min would require 3 warriors, which is allready pretty resonable

  20. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by Enosh View Post
    lol people were whining that lfr makes player burn out on content sooner and now they are perfectly fine with having to raid 10 man, 25 man* and lfr in the same week

    please, keep this bullshit in asia

    *if anyone says "you don't have to" I'll laugh in his face, you don't have to do a lot of things in the game but players still do them
    being forced to run 48 bosses in 1 tier no way jose, And on top of that you need to do dailys. this is a game not a job

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