5.1 10 / 25 Seperate Lockouts

[Seriss]

I've not done enough of both to say on the first part but I agree that you can afford to lose more people on 25-man, because it's a smaller proportion of your group. I like to think of a team member dying on 25-man being roughly equal to a hunter / warlock / death knight pet dying on 10-man: annoying, but an inconvenience rather than wipemaker.

During progress, you cannot afford losing people on either size. Some encounters will allow you to brush over a mistake or two, mostly at the cost of healer mana, but you cannot generalize just like that. For 25-man, it may result in not meeting the enrage timer when a single dps dies. For 10-man, it's the same. Or healer mana may become problematic. Or if a tank dies on Stone Guard, their energy bars will ensure that you're screwed on either difficulty.

It's always been like that.

Also, some encounters are more manageable in 25-man as opposed to their 10-man counterpart.
And, some encounters are more manageable in 10-man as opposed to their 25-man counterpart.

It depends on encounter-design. Encounters that require people to perform various tasks but at the same time have mechanisms that disable some people from performing them occasionally are naturally a greater hassle on 10-man than on 25-man. You have more people to fill in when the primary people temporarily cannot perform that task. On the other hand, you have encounters that require the raid to spread out, and still everyone needs to be in healing range. Way easier to handle for a 10-man.

Communication on TS/vent is also easier for a 10-man. We've had moments where various people were announcing important things... In my former 25-man raids, it was much more quiet with mostly the raid leader and the officers speaking up - unless in cases of emergency. In 25-man, I never felt like I had so much responsibility as a healer as I now do, when I raid 10-man (it sort of reminds me of when way back, I healed LK hc 10-man on an off-night, 2 healed, me being shaman... and nobody in their right mind actually wanted to bring a shaman there, at least not before the buff had stacked up to 30%. It was exhausting. So much depended on me. It was a step up from 25-man there, seriously). If you had asked me six months ago, I'd have said "Me, raiding 10-mans? Go away, 25-mans are way more epic. You'll not see me dead going 10-man with my main." Times change. People change. Old friendships break and new ones form. The raid that you're in now may in a few months no longer be the one that you want to be in, and you might leave and form a new one with people who grew on you.

Oh and, just to be an annoying person, I'll state: "A dps player cannot fathom the levels of difficulty of a raid size." I've raided enough on my dps alts to be able to say that, on most encounters, it made no difference to me if there were 9 or 24 more people in the raid. I was just performing my rotation and pushing Hymn of Hope and the likes when told to do so. When I heal, I feel more of a difference. Some encounters compliment my playstyle and class mechanics more than others, meaning that I will be performing better and more easily on one raid size than I do on the other.

Okay, Stone Guard is an example, where a dps player has to be on their toes about chains and lighting up tiles, but that one's a classic example where having more people to fill in for lighting tiles when the usual people are chained to something unfortunate is an advantage. It's silly to see how 25-mans can light up the entire room with ease. But they get an additional mechanic to deal with, and they have more people that can fail on them (which they shouldn't but... we've all raided enough to know that people don't always do as they should, and that factor is multiplied by 2.5 in the larger raid size when you look at the average, non world top 100 area. Because the people up there fail less, independent of their respective raid format).

I suppose the point of this entire rant here is: Why do we even care? So much of what we're discussing here are entirely subjective impressions! Anecdotal evidence! Differences in setup! Picking the best 10 out of a roster of 30+ people (trust me, I've been there too), and then claiming that it's all so much easier. It's not. It's not all just black and white. There are too many variables to give an objective point of view. Which is why arguments like this are totally pointless. And yet I'm participating in them all the time, if only to counteract all the one-liners that just flame around.

[dakalro]

For anyone who is complaining abt 25 man dps reqs, there are things like skull banner and storm lash nowdays, which 25 man gets to pop pretty much every 30 secs-1 min when on 10 man you get 1 or 2 tops per 3 mins, in 25 man you can chain skull banners to last the whole burn phase also, so naturally the dps req should be higher per person than what it is in 10 man. If it aint well then 25 man would be far far easyer than 10 mans. And even atm it is happening cause for a 10 man bringing 2 warrior or is allready kinda not optimal in setup design

Because in 25 man you have 10 warriors and 10 shaman all the time. Good to know, didn't hear I was out of a raiding spot till now. Think just a little before you post.

[nalle]

So the 10-man guilds tell all the 25-man guilds, "Boo hoo, you can't complain. You can still do 25-man if you want, no one is forcing you to do 10s. Let the chips fall as they may, and see what people choose. If 10s win out, so be it. The people have spoken."

Suddenly, with the prospect of this one day coming to US realms, the 10s are crying foul. No complaints allowed. No one will be forcing you to run 25s. Better gear certainly won't make it a requirement. To you I will say, "Boo hoo, you can't complain. You can still do 10-man if you want, no one is forcing you to do 25s. Let the chips fall as they may, and see what people choose. If 25s win out, so be it. The people have spoken."

Indeed, it goes both ways. Many seem to forget that.

As for this endless discussion about what raid size is the most difficult, it depends on the boss and what abilities the boss uses during the fight as well as what classes/buffs you have in the raid group when you fight them.

Some bosses are harder on 10 man, some are harder on 25 man (an example is that it's easier for 10 players to spread out in the same sized area as 25 players have to use).


To the people wishing for 15 man raids only, I say screw you. As I personally don't want to raid 10 man or 15 man, I would like to keep my 25 man option thank you very much.

[Deleted]

Or optimally Blizzard could give us 2 lockouts and let us choose what to use them on.. If you do 10 and 25 you can't do LFR that week. If you do 10 and LFR you can't do 25, etc.

Good idea

[Deleted]

Whats up with better loot for 25mans? I'd say thats pretty retarded and I really hope that doesnt come to EU-servers or I'd be royally pissed with Blizzard.

[Sonrisa]

basically it's not hard to pve dps. if the "requirements" are higher, than there is obviously more opportunity to sit there and dps than in 10s.

Most DPS checks require you to just (mostly) sit there and DPS so I'm not sure where you are seeing this increase in oportunity...

Seriously DO run the numbers instead of attempting to make excuses. The extra leeway 10 man gets allows for poorer play, messing up your rotation, missing a few globals, and still meeting the DPS requirements without a sweat.

[Moonfaxx]

Whats up with better loot for 25mans? I'd say thats pretty retarded and I really hope that doesnt come to EU-servers or I'd be royally pissed with Blizzard.

Why would you be pissed?

[Shmeh]

You're right, this is exactly the point. There was no incentive to do more work for equal reward. Likewise, if this change were to go live on US/EU realms, the incentive would fit the workload. Win-win.

False. As some random chucklefuck in a 25 man you do no extra work. You don't deserve an extra reward raiding 25 because you prefer 25. The workload falls on the raid leader and officers.

[Vasilisa]

no. if, share 10 and LFR lockouts.

---------- Post added 2012-10-25 at 10:02 AM ----------


25 is still harder in every aspect. so why not?

It depends from fight to fight. Good example would be DS where Hagara was quite easy in 10 man while Warmaster Backhorn was tough especially if you didn't have dk for deathgrip. From what I've heard in 25 man it was quite the opposite. 25 man have more issues with running and managing the guild but I'd prefer to be allowed to choose what I want to raid and not being forced instead. Current model is not perfect but at least both raid sizes can compete. As I said earlier this change would scratch 10 mans out of the table. Plus with amount of time I spend at work raiding 25 & 10 man would be impossible for me. Let's leave as it is now.

[Zeta333]

I dont know why people are so pissed, though i see this as to little to late. Would have been a good move durring cata but meh now. I dont get why people are mad about the item levels, if all your going to do is 10mans then why does 25mans item level affect you at all? No one says you have to do 25mans. 10mans will be perfectly managable with the item level it has now. With the advent of 10man guilds alot of servers became ghost towns with alot of 25man guilds dying and smaller 10man guilds forming but in the process forming a smaller community and alot of times shutting themselfs out. Iv done both 10 and 25 and enjoyed 25 far more, servers were more active and fun durring the wrath days.

And i must say again, NO ONE IS FORCED to raid 25mans.

[Shmeh]

I dont know why people are so pissed, though i see this as to little to late. Would have been a good move durring cata but meh now. I dont get why people are mad about the item levels, if all your going to do is 10mans then why does 25mans item level affect you at all? No one says you have to do 25mans. 10mans will be perfectly managable with the item level it has now. With the advent of 10man guilds alot of servers became ghost towns with alot of 25man guilds dying and smaller 10man guilds forming but in the process forming a smaller community and alot of times shutting themselfs out. Iv done both 10 and 25 and enjoyed 25 far more, servers were more active and fun durring the wrath days.

And i must say again, NO ONE IS FORCED to raid 25mans.

Fun is subjective. This stomps out 10 man because quality players will go where the superior loot is.

[Deleted]

I wouldn't mind the separate lockouts so much, but better gear just because your guild has more active raiders? No sir, wouldn't like that at all. I already felt like a second class raider during wotlk because 25s got better gear AND were the only ones to get legendaries

[Moonfaxx]

False. As some random chucklefuck in a 25 man you do no extra work. You don't deserve an extra reward raiding 25 because you prefer 25. The workload falls on the raid leader and officers.

Oh good, that's me. Thanks!

[mrgreenthump]

Because in 25 man you have 10 warriors and 10 shaman all the time. Good to know, didn't hear I was out of a raiding spot till now. Think just a little before you post.

skull banner dropped down every 30 seconds would need you to have 6 warriors, sure might be a bit of stretch but it is possible in 25 man, every min would require 3 warriors, which is allready pretty resonable

[araine]

lol people were whining that lfr makes player burn out on content sooner and now they are perfectly fine with having to raid 10 man, 25 man* and lfr in the same week

please, keep this bullshit in asia

*if anyone says "you don't have to" I'll laugh in his face, you don't have to do a lot of things in the game but players still do them

being forced to run 48 bosses in 1 tier no way jose, And on top of that you need to do dailys. this is a game not a job

[mich125]

Finally WoW going back to its roots, 25mans raiders are the real deal, being better rewarded for harder work? bring it on. And yes they mantioned in .kr post, that 25man raids will become even harder.

[Deleted]

I do not support this change and if it goes further i will consider leaving WoW.

[Seriss]

It depends from fight to fight. Good example would be DS where Hagara was quite easy in 10 man while Warmaster Backhorn was tough especially if you didn't have dk for deathgrip. From what I've heard in 25 man it was quite the opposite. 25 man have more issues with running and managing the guild but I'd prefer to be allowed to choose what I want to raid and not being forced instead. Current model is not perfect but at least both raid sizes can compete. As I said earlier this change would scratch 10 mans out of the table. Plus with amount of time I spend at work raiding 25 & 10 man would be impossible for me. Let's leave as it is now.

Ehm... I thought Hagara was harder on 10-man than it was on 25-man. I was primarily raiding 25-man at that point, so I was just told that it was so much easier because we could just stack people in the middle and heal through the frost phases. It took my alt runs a long time to even gather up the courage to attempt Hagara as we had been told it was so hard, and we didn't want to waste much time on that boss.

Ultraxion was the one that was said to be way easier on 10-man.

Between Spine and Madness, one was a tad harder on 10-man than on 25-man, the other, it was vice versa. So it evened out. It's all about encounter mechanics and stacking classes in some cases, and whenever it comes to class-stacking while still providing all necessary buffs, the more people you have, the better. It's rather logical.

[noxatron]

Welcome back to GDKPs

[Deleted]

1) it`s for korea only, even if i want it on eu servers we will have to see if the do the same here

2)Most people complaining about it remember me the dragon soul debuff, complaining it make it so easy with them having cleared 1/8 hc, saying that they felt forced to use the debuff to progess trough the instance(3/4 months after release)

3)it`s for korea only, even if i want it on eu servers we will have to see if the do the same here