5.1 Patch : 10 and 25 man seperate lockouts

[Illunis]

my god you are actually that naive aren't you?
no the old system will do exactly the same thing it did back then, fuck 10man guilds.

what happens when 25man gear is stronger then 10man? 25man guilds are able to bulldoze 10man, if you even think they won't do that you have no idea how the world fucking works and should go back to the playpen.

With all the rashly condescending remarks aside, I don't see any validation to your point. Lets lay out a timeline here.

Lets say, within the first week, Guild A, being a 10 man guild, and Guild B, being the 25 man guild, having the same raid schedule, and same skill level, set out to progress through their respective lockouts, shooting for 6/6N, to start heroics.

Assuming again, that the difficulty is gauged properly, with equivalent skill levels, and equivalent time, both guilds should clear 6/6N in the same time frame. Rewarding Guild's A and B with their respective loot and achievements, duly earned.

Obviously things don't lay out perfectly like that in real play, but I really don't see anything fundamentally wrong with that system. It gives both difficulties a fair shot at their progression. If you fall behind, and someone swoops in and grabs your shiny server firsts because they're more skilled, then it almost seems like they deserve it more than you, eh?

http://www.worldoflogs.com/zones/Mogu%27shan_Vaults/
flip back and forth.

So, 3 are harder on 25, 3 are harder on 10. Leaving us at a stalemate on 10/25 being easier/harder, for this specific tier.

[mordale]

With all the rashly condescending remarks aside, I don't see any validation to your point. Lets lay out a timeline here.

Lets say, within the first week, Guild A, being a 10 man guild, and Guild B, being the 25 man guild, having the same raid schedule, and same skill level, set out to progress through their respective lockouts, shooting for 6/6N, to start heroics.

Assuming again, that the difficulty is gauged properly, with equivalent skill levels, and equivalent time, both guilds should clear 6/6N in the same time frame. Rewarding Guild's A and B with their respective loot and achievements, duly earned.

Obviously things don't lay out perfectly like that in real play, but I really don't see anything fundamentally wrong with that system. It gives both difficulties a fair shot at their progression. If you fall behind, and someone swoops in and grabs your shiny server firsts because they're more skilled, then it almost seems like they deserve it more than you, eh?

in terms of their own raids yes 25man and 10man are equal, why does 25man gear need to be higher Ilvl then?
it doesn't.

[Illunis]

in terms of their own raids yes 25man and 10man are equal, why does 25man gear need to be higher Ilvl then?
it doesn't.

It doesn't need to be higher iLvl, but that's part of the incentive. People are motivated by purples and oranges, not achievements.

[mordale]

With all the rashly condescending remarks aside, I don't see any validation to your point. Lets lay out a timeline here.

Lets say, within the first week, Guild A, being a 10 man guild, and Guild B, being the 25 man guild, having the same raid schedule, and same skill level, set out to progress through their respective lockouts, shooting for 6/6N, to start heroics.

Assuming again, that the difficulty is gauged properly, with equivalent skill levels, and equivalent time, both guilds should clear 6/6N in the same time frame. Rewarding Guild's A and B with their respective loot and achievements, duly earned.

Obviously things don't lay out perfectly like that in real play, but I really don't see anything fundamentally wrong with that system. It gives both difficulties a fair shot at their progression. If you fall behind, and someone swoops in and grabs your shiny server firsts because they're more skilled, then it almost seems like they deserve it more than you, eh?



So, 3 are harder on 25, 3 are harder on 10. Leaving us at a stalemate on 10/25 being easier/harder, for this specific tier.

incase you didn't notice the degrees actually matter what with 25man spiritbinder haveing 3 times the K/D as 10, with the other 2 being atleast 2/3s more.
the only 10man fight thats half as easier that its 25man counterpart is feng, the other 2 are less that 1/10


amazing how you gloss over things that disprove what you believe.

[Illunis]

incase you didn't notice the degrees actually matter what with 25man spiritbinder haveing 3 times the K/D as 10.
the only 10man fight thats half as easier that its 25man counterpart is feng, the other 2 are less that 1/10

amazing how you gloss over things that disprove what you believe.

The same can be said of your argument. You blatantly said 25 mans should just die if no one wants to do them, but then whine about how 10 mans will die if no one has a reason to do them?

Pot calling the kettle black?

[mordale]

The same can be said of your argument. You blatantly said 25 mans should just die if no one wants to do them, but then whine about how 10 mans will die if no one has a reason to do them?

Pot calling the kettle black?

no, its called choice, i say leave it the way it is and let people CHOSE what setting they want.
not force them into one or the other, like this system did and will do if they ever bring it back.
if that means 25mans "die", then let them.




and i never said they should discontinue making 25man raids, people use the term "dying" as synonym for "declining in popularity", WoW "killed" EQ and EQ2 yet they're both still on going with content updates(which makes you think just how long is WoW going to live).

[Illunis]

no, its called choice, i say leave it the way it is and let people CHOSE what setting they want.
not force them into one or the other, and i never said they should discontinue 25man raids, i have to make my gold somehow.

Right, and with the other system, there is choice. You can do 10, you can do 25, you can do both. No one forces you to do any of them. If you want to be competitive, be skilled. Period. If the shinies are what you're after, then you'll run with a 25 guild so you can have those extra few item levels tacked on to your gear. If you despise 25s and just want to raid 10s, there will be guilds out there that continue to run them, just as 25 man guilds are now.

Either way the model is simple, it brings back flexibility to raiding again, as opposed to this current 'flexible lockout system', which basically means 25 mans can just do 10 man anyway on regular.

[mordale]

Right, and with the other system, there is choice. You can do 10, you can do 25, you can do both. No one forces you to do any of them. If you want to be competitive, be skilled. Period. If the shinies are what you're after, then you'll run with a 25 guild so you can have those extra few item levels tacked on to your gear. If you despise 25s and just want to raid 10s, there will be guilds out there that continue to run them, just as 25 man guilds are now.

Either way the model is simple, it brings back flexibility to raiding again, as opposed to this current 'flexible lockout system', which basically means 25 mans can just do 10 man anyway on regular.

once again your naivety clouds your perception, this is WoW.

people gouge out hit to increase their DPS by 100, min/max is God here.

if 25man has a higher ilvl gear that gear WILL become mandatory, making 25man mandatory.

right now we have a choice, with that system we did not.
thats the plain and simple fact.
and this will happen, because that is what did happen.

[facerollin]

my god you are actually that naive aren't you?
no the old system will do exactly the same thing it did back then, fuck 10man guilds.

what happens when 25man gear is stronger then 10man? 25man guilds are able to bulldoze 10man, if you even think they won't do that you have no idea how the world fucking works and should go back to the playpen.

---------- Post added 2012-10-27 at 12:32 PM ----------



http://www.worldoflogs.com/zones/Mogu%27shan_Vaults/
flip back and forth.
SG: 10:8.8% , 25:16.3% 25man is easier
feng:10:12.9%,25:7.1%10man is easier
gar:10:11.9%,25:38% 25man is drastically easier
tSK:10:15.6%,25:14.9%relatively even with 10man slightly ahead.
elegon::10:3.9%,25:5.8% 25man is easier.
will:10:12.8%,25:11%relatively even with 10man slightly ahead.

Point is moot as 25man guilds are more likely to be considered hardcore, I've lost count of the shitty 10man guilds that are casual on my realm and just inflating the numbers.

It's about time Blizzard are rewarding harder content with better gear, as mentioned in a blue post they also plan to separate 10 and 25m achievements also.

[Illunis]

once again your naivety clouds your perception, this is WoW.

people gouge out hit to increase their DPS by 100, min/max is God here.

if 25man has a higher ilvl gear that gear WILL become mandatory, making 25man mandatory.

right now we have a choice, with that system we did not.
thats the plain and simple fact.

I already argued this point earlier. If 10 and 25s are going to be separate again, then the difficulty will be scaled to the available gear. Obviously min maxed 25 man gear would make 10 man content easier, but 25 man geared players would have no reason to go into 10 mans, except achievement runs, or heroic runs down the line after they're done with their progression, again, for the achievements, or a piece of transmog gear.

10 man guilds will have the gear available to them to be able to kill 10 man content. It won't be required to have 25 man gear to do a 10 man. It will make it easier, but not required. That's basically like saying a 25 man guild would have to go farm 40 man raid gear to do 25 man content. Or since 40 mans don't exist anymore, 25H gear, to do 25N content.

[mordale]

I already argued this point earlier. If 10 and 25s are going to be separate again, then the difficulty will be scaled to the available gear. Obviously min maxed 25 man gear would make 10 man content easier, but 25 man geared players would have no reason to go into 10 mans, except achievement runs, or heroic runs down the line after they're done with their progression, again, for the achievements, or a piece of transmog gear.

10 man guilds will have the gear available to them to be able to kill 10 man content. It won't be required to have 25 man gear to do a 10 man. It will make it easier, but not required. That's basically like saying a 25 man guild would have to go farm 40 man raid gear to do 25 man content. Or since 40 mans don't exist anymore, 25H gear, to do 25N content.

it doesn't matter whats required, it didn't matter back then, and it won't matter if they bring this idiotic system back.
people demand that you be the best you can be, if you can't your benched.

as i said, your nativity is really clouding what you see, WoW players are VERY min/max focused, so anything that increases your power is mandatory.
increasing the Ilvl of 25man gear will do exactly what it did in wrath.


i honestly don't even need to argue this point, its been proven for me.

[Illunis]

it doesn't matter whats required, it didn't matter back then, and it won't matter if they bring this idiotic system back.
people demand that you be the best you can be, if you can't your benched.

as i said, your nativity is really clouding what you see, WoW players are VERY min/max focused, so anything that increases your power is mandatory.
increasing the Ilvl of 25man gear will do exactly what it did in wrath.


i honestly don't even need to argue this point, its been proven for me.

I know all about min/maxing a character, I'm running my mage through SC right now to make sure I am optimized, I go over valor gear rewards, stat weights per item, set bonus dps increases, and run my shit through askmrrobot every time I get a new piece of gear, and regem/reforge every single piece. I know min maxing is king.

What you seem not not realize, up there on your high horse, is that there will be guilds that are going to stay 10 man-centric, just like there are guilds that are still 25 man at this point in the game, even though there is 0 benefit to doing it. You pick your path, you play it. If you want to play 25 mans, you will. If you want to play 10s, you will. Regardless of the system, that's how its been, and that's how it always will be.

[mordale]

Point is moot as 25man guilds are more likely to be considered hardcore, I've lost count of the shitty 10man guilds that are casual on my realm and just inflating the numbers.

It's about time Blizzard are rewarding harder content with better gear, as mentioned in a blue post they also plan to separate 10 and 25m achievements also.

i still see 25mans as the easier content(mostly cause they in fact are) cause less effort is required by each individual and a character dying or being incapacitated isn't as punishing as it in in 10man.

"inflation" doesn't account for the results in heroic of 25man have twice the K/D ratio on the 2 first bosses.'

also i'd love to see this blue post.

---------- Post added 2012-10-27 at 01:23 PM ----------

I know all about min/maxing a character, I'm running my mage through SC right now to make sure I am optimized, I go over valor gear rewards, stat weights per item, set bonus dps increases, and run my shit through askmrrobot every time I get a new piece of gear, and regem/reforge every single piece. I know min maxing is king.

What you seem not not realize, up there on your high horse, is that there will be guilds that are going to stay 10 man-centric, just like there are guilds that are still 25 man at this point in the game, even though there is 0 benefit to doing it. You pick your path, you play it. If you want to play 25 mans, you will. If you want to play 10s, you will. Regardless of the system, that's how its been, and that's how it always will be.

then why does the system need to be changed if it'll just be a step backwards?
allow me to explain why we have the current system that we do, people wanted 10man to be viable and competitive, it now currently is.
people also didn't want to have to do the same raid up to 2 times a week to keep up on progression, they don't need to.
and people wanted to be able to freely chose which setting they wanted, they can.
changing it back will only cause negatives.

[Illunis]

then why does the system need to be changed if it'll just be a step backwards?
allow me to explain why we have the current system that we do, people wanted 10man to be viable and competitive, it now currently is.
people also didn't want to have to do the same raid up to 2 times a week to keep up on progression, they don't need to.
and people wanted to be able to freely chose which setting they wanted, they can.
changing it back will only cause negatives.

Except for that whole, you know, one raid difficulty dying out thing, solely for the reason of the other one being more 'viable and competitive'.

amazing how you gloss over things that disprove what you believe.

[mordale]

Except for that whole, you know, one raid difficulty dying out thing, solely for the reason of the other one being more 'viable and competitive'.

my god, your like a broken record aren't you?
ok, i'll explain it in words simple enough for you.

dying does not mean vanishing in the world of MMOs.
it means they are losing following, less people are doing 25mans because they are no longer forced to do them.
25mans are not going anywhere, there are people still doing them.
hell theres already a reason to do them over 10mans, you get more loot per person.

we are not sacrificing 25mans to make 10mans viable, we are putting them on equal pedestals.

its amazing how you miss the fucking obvious, no matter how many times i explain it to you.

[Illunis]

dying does not mean vanishing in the world of MMOs.
it means they are losing following, less people are doing 25mans because they are no longer forced to do them.
25mans are not going anywhere, there are people still doing them.

That right there, is something I've been explaining to you this entire time as well.

Back in wrath, people were still doing 10 mans. I knew of plenty of 10 man guilds, that were content and happy to do 10 man content in wotlk. And there was no lack of skill involved in any of that. Bane of the Fallen King was no joke.

That, in and of itself, is a choice based on playstyle. Those people played 10 man because they enjoyed it more, the atmosphere, the number of people, whatever. They played it because that's what they wanted to play. Other players, that wanted the purples with a few ilvls tacked on, continued raiding in 25s, and were content there as well.

The choice is there now, understandably. You do 10 or 25, and you get the same reward. But then you come to the crossroad of this: There's 0 incentive to run/lead/provide the upkeep necessary to support a 25 man guild, when just keeping a 10 man guild together and in good shape, is that much easier.

The incentive is what is missing. That's why 25 man guilds are dying out. That's why 10 mans are so much more prevalent. I'm not saying the gear needs to be the deciding factor of what the incentive is.

I straight up said that a few posts back, that it doesn't have to be changed, but logically, that is the highest incentive they can offer to people. Gear, mounts, and achievements.

I firmly believe that separating the lockouts and achievements alone will give people enough incentive to at least care about 25 man again. Gear can stay the same across the board. That gives people who take the time and effort to lead a 25 man guild the opportunity to take their raiders into separate 10 man groups and get gear in that lockout as well. I would love to see that happen, though it wouldn't. I can almost guarantee.

There's just no way to do the separate lockouts w/ the same gear without having lazy 10 man guilds not moan and complain that 25 mans are getting more toys than them.

[mordale]

That right there, is something I've been explaining to you this entire time as well.

Back in wrath, people were still doing 10 mans. I knew of plenty of 10 man guilds, that were content and happy to do 10 man content in wotlk. And there was no lack of skill involved in any of that. Bane of the Fallen King was no joke.

That, in and of itself, is a choice based on playstyle. Those people played 10 man because they enjoyed it more, the atmosphere, the number of people, whatever. They played it because that's what they wanted to play. Other players, that wanted the purples with a few ilvls tacked on, continued raiding in 25s, and were content there as well.

The choice is there now, understandably. You do 10 or 25, and you get the same reward. But then you come to the crossroad of this: There's 0 incentive to run/lead/provide the upkeep necessary to support a 25 man guild, when just keeping a 10 man guild together and in good shape, is that much easier.

The incentive is what is missing. That's why 25 man guilds are dying out. That's why 10 mans are so much more prevalent. I'm not saying the gear needs to be the deciding factor of what the incentive is.

I straight up said that a few posts back, that it doesn't have to be changed, but logically, that is the highest incentive they can offer to people. Gear, mounts, and achievements.

I firmly believe that separating the lockouts and achievements alone will give people enough incentive to at least care about 25 man again. Gear can stay the same across the board. That gives people who take the time and effort to lead a 25 man guild the opportunity to take their raiders into separate 10 man groups and get gear in that lockout as well. I would love to see that happen, though it wouldn't. I can almost guarantee.

There's just no way to do the separate lockouts w/ the same gear without having lazy 10 man guilds not moan and complain that 25 mans are getting more toys than them.

then rather then reverting it back into the previous system which did the exact same thing to 10man, they should just split the achievements and leave it at that.

but as I've said and has been proven in the past the reason the old system is gone is because the negatives out weighed the positives.

[Kesandri]

Except for that whole, you know, one raid difficulty dying out thing, solely for the reason of the other one being more 'viable and competitive'.

I'll jump in here and say what people dont seem to be saying. If what you are saying is really true and 1 has to be mandatory then let it be 10 man (awaits hate inc).
Back in WOTLK blizzard gave us 10 man raiding, proper 10 man raiding for every raid they released and a number of people took to it. During this time due to not having shared lockouts, 25 mans remained the mandatory progression raid, 1) because it had the better gear and 2) realistically would always have better geared raids due to being able to run a 25 man raid and a 10 man raid during the same week.
Because of the above 10 man raiding was simply not viable in terms of rankings, a 25 man guilds split 10 man team/s would always have an advantage over any 10 man strict raid.
To summerise, if your not bothered about rankings as a 10 man guild then the system was fine in wotlk but if you were you had a disadvantage.

Taking my above into consideration, two years and one expansion later we have been given shared lockouts preventing 25 man guilds also running 10 man raids ie having to make a choice. We also have gear given the same ilvl while 25 man keeping a slight advantage on some items ie legendaries. Many would agree (albeit not on mmo champion) that for the first time since the launch of 10 man raiding things are on an equal footing, thus 10 man raids now being included in 'normal' rankings on most sites.

Again taking above into consideration, we now find ourselves in a position that the majority of players have chosen to run 10 man's due to them being more simple/easier to run (probably the main reason) as neither diff has an advantage/disadvantage when it comes purely to the actual raiding diff (again, most would agree diffs are about same - just not on mmo champion )

With all of this in mind, the majority of players have chosen to run 10 mans, while a number of players have stuck with the 25 man format. How anyone can say right now we dont have choice is beyond me, and how anyone can say 25 should be mandatory is also beyond me based on all of the above. We had no choice in wotlk, it was 25 or be a 'casual', now its raid 10 or 25 or be casual.

I will not accept the arguement of there is no incentive to raid 25 man, as my own realm (med pop) has 5 25 man guilds, 1 of which relaunched for MoP and they are all going well. We do what we enjoy and for most, that is 10 man raiding, hence why I said earlier if it absolutely came to one raid type being remved have it be 25, tho I still believe both work perfectly fine right now, I cannot think or or have not seen a better solution to this 'problem' so dont change something that isnt broken.

[Illunis]

then rather then reverting it back into the previous system when did the exact same thing to 10man, they should just split the achievements and leave it at that.

That is a definite solution, but now that its been released, you know people are going to go misty eyed and cling to the dream of lockouts being separated again.

And you'll have the achievement whores and the mount hunters that will literally up and leave 10 man guilds to join 25s, in hopes of getting those in a 25 guild, whereas they couldn't in a 10 man.

[mordale]

That is a definite solution, but now that its been released, you know people are going to go misty eyed and cling to the dream of lockouts being separated again.

and those people are fools, and no one should give two shits what a fool thinks.