5.1 Patch : 10 and 25 man seperate lockouts

[Radalek]

Its a poll that is on a forum for MMOs, is on a board for raiding, and is on a topic marked "Poll: 10 and 25 man seperate lockouts Poll"....a title just about guaranteed to attract those discontented with the current system. In short, as a poll, it is far from unbiased and can hardly be seen as represetative.

I am not surprised that when polled, a substantial portion supported a change. I'm surprised its that low at 50%? To me, that suggest a properly run poll would come up with numbers far lower.

EJL

Can you explain to me why is it just about guaranteed to attract those discontented with the current system? Really curious since I disagree. There's more than 800 people that voted, I would say it's a good sample from my experience with election polls which are usually done with 500-1000 people and you would be surprised how accurate they can be.
Having 65% wanting the change in the system where 90% are raiding 10 man says a lot. Having 43% wanting higher ilvl for 25 man says even more.

[Talen]

Can you explain to me why is it just about guaranteed to attract those discontented with the current system? Really curious since I disagree. There's more than 800 people that voted, I would say it's a good sample from my experience with election polls which are usually done with 500-1000 people and you would be surprised how accurate they can be.

Because its not just numbers that count. If you conduct a poll by phone, for example, you are biasing the results to the population who have phones and discounting the view of those who don't.

In this case, you have a poll on a forum that isn't universally read or available so you aren't getting subset of all players. Justa subset of all players who read MMO. The poll is located on a forum dedicated to raiders. It given a title that will attract only those who are interested in this aspect of the debate instead of all raiders. And its a simple poll which will be answered only by those who are enamoured enough of the question to actually respond...most of whom will select the option for change because those are the players who will be most motivated to seek out such topics and vote on such polls.

The end result is a poll that is biased. What this tells me is not that 65% of players in game are unhappy with the changes; it tells me that 65% of the players who could motivate themselves to vote are unhappy. Who are most liekly not to have voted? People who are happy with the situation, people who don't care about format. Same with any industry - you always expect to get far more complaints than praise.

EJL

[Deleted]

That's a probem? Thing is....the "force" that is supposed to pull you towards 25 is preference for the format. You've acknowledged above that the extra work involved in 25s is management...so most players don't see an increase in workload or responsibility between formats.

Regardless of your preference, 25 man raiding is not stable. Besides, it's naive to think people can isolate one factor like raid size and decide based on that. They don't. They decide based on overall risk-reward and there are much more complicated decision making problems at play than you seem to be able to comprehend.

What you have in the game is a situation where a player can choose between two formats, where they do equal work, have the same responsibility, react to the same mechanics, see the same content and get the same rewards as a result.

I have no clue what game you're talking about, but the above is most certainly not true for WoW. I couldn't choose between two such formats, I could choose between a format with a better risk-reward and one with a worse risk-reward. You can keep obsessively producing walls of text telling me that I'm wrong, but it doesn't change the fact that my perceived risk-reward is worse for 25 mans, which at the end of the day is all that matters.

I believe most players prefer 10s.

And this is where you are flat out wrong. How much do you want to bet that if there was a 5-man mode with the same rewards, that's where most people would go to? Not because they particularly prefer 5 mans, but because it would offer superior risk-reward.

[Radalek]

Because its not just numbers that count. If you conduct a poll by phone, for example, you are biasing the results to the population who have phones and discounting the view of those who don't.

In this case, you have a poll on a forum that isn't universally read or available so you aren't getting subset of all players. Justa subset of all players who read MMO. The poll is located on a forum dedicated to raiders. It given a title that will attract only those who are interested in this aspect of the debate instead of all raiders. And its a simple poll which will be answered only by those who are enamoured enough of the question to actually respond...most of whom will select the option for change because those are the players who will be most motivated to seek out such topics and vote on such polls.

The end result is a poll that is biased. What this tells me is not that 65% of players in game are unhappy with the changes; it tells me that 65% of the players who could motivate themselves to vote are unhappy. Who are most liekly not to have voted? People who are happy with the situation, people who don't care about format. Same with any industry - you always expect to get far more complaints than praise.

EJL

You're also aware that many non raiders visit MMO champ daily as well. People who set foot in any raid are around 10% of WoW population anyway and I would say people who visit this forum are close to general subset of your average raider. But even if the topic it self would skew the numbers it really doesn't change much of the general picture. Any poll that would be subject of something like that and is heavily affected might be changed by 10-20% at most and those are really extreme cases. That would still bring us to conclusion that really big chunk of 10 man raiders support some kind of a change, it's really clear.

[Deleted]

You're also aware that many non raiders visit MMO champ daily as well. People who set foot in any raid are around 10% of WoW population anyway and I would say people who visit this forum are close to general subset of your average raider. But even if the topic it self would skew the numbers it really doesn't change much of the general picture. Any poll that would be subject of something like that and is heavily affected might be changed by 10-20% at most and those are really extreme cases. That would still bring us to conclusion that really big chunk of 10 man raiders support some kind of a change, it's really clear.

Nah, it doesn't follow at all.

The MMO champion forums are in no way, shape or form indicative of the general playerbase.

Edit -

I'll just add this -

Most players follow raid leaders. Most players don't want to organise, manage, do tactics etc etc and so they try to find someone who will do those things who they can lean on to get their loot/progression.

10 man is easier on raid leaders than 25 is. That's why 25 is dying off.

[Daedelus]

I really hope they don't bring this back to EU and US realms. It wouldn't help encourage 25 man raiding. People who can raid 25 already do. Most 10 man guilds are not doing 10 man because running a 25 man guild is just a pain in the arse.

If they want to encourage 25 man raiding, remove the fee for transferring realms.

[Radalek]

I really hope they don't bring this back to EU and US realms. It wouldn't help encourage 25 man raiding. People who can raid 25 already do. Most 10 man guilds are not doing 10 man because running a 25 man guild is just a pain in the arse.

If they want to encourage 25 man raiding, remove the fee for transferring realms.

I would disagree here. So many people are stuck raiding 10 man since they have no other choice. The average raider is not a guy who has time to maintain and lead the guild. He would like to log at raid time and do his job. A lot of them would like to raid 25 man but they can't since there's not enough of them around. So many servers have none or just few 25 mans left and people are basically forced to go 10 man if they want to raid.

[Talen]

Regardless of your preference, 25 man raiding is not stable. Besides, it's naive to think people can isolate one factor like raid size and decide based on that. They don't. They decide based on overall risk-reward and there are much more complicated decision making problems at play than you seem to be able to comprehend.

Then you haven't been reading my posts on this issue. I've always stated that raid size isn't the only factor that is used to determine which format a player prefers and that other factors are involved. The problem is that raid size itself is a MINOR issue for many. Other factors - such as the need for progression or raiding with friends - often take a far higher precedence, even for those who claim to love 25s but, when faced with the opportunity to raid in that format - don't. But they'd be willing to put themsleves through the hassle and grief of 25s if the loot was better.

Maybe it's just me but that sounds an awful lot like "I don't care about 25s...but I loved getting better gear from them".

I have no clue what game you're talking about, but the above is most certainly not true for WoW. I couldn't choose between two such formats, I could choose between a format with a better risk-reward and one with a worse risk-reward. You can keep obsessively producing walls of text telling me that I'm wrong, but it doesn't change the fact that my perceived risk-reward is worse for 25 mans, which at the end of the day is all that matters.

Yes...YOUR ***PERCEIVED*** risk/reward is different. Raid leaders do more work and that isn't rewarded. True. That is a deterrent to having raid form in the first place. But if you aren't a raid leader...yuor workload is the same. Your rotation is the same. You have the same mechanics to react to. You see the same content.

Where is this extra risk you speak of coming from? Is it simply the perception that 25s are harder? This was spoken of in Cataclysm as well, and was and is a popular myth. Even today, there are players on this thread who swear that 10s are harder.

Which is to be expected - group makeup and skill, palyers expectations..all that play into how difficult each player finds a raid. But it is subjective. What one person finds impossible, another might find easy. There aren't that many cases where the difficulty gap is universally acknowledged. Whether or not MoP will be the same - its too early to tell.

But if its not this perceived risk...what si ti? is it the thought that "I might have to wait 10 extra minutes for everyone to get ready". Which, admittedly, can be irritating? Or is it the risk faced by the 15 lower skilled players who may get kicked because soemone thinks "Those 15 people in the raid have a lower skill level than the top 10; you know - I bet if we got rid of them, we'd be able to breeze through this".

And this is where you are flat out wrong. How much do you want to bet that if there was a 5-man mode with the same rewards, that's where most people would go to? Not because they particularly prefer 5 mans, but because it would offer superior risk-reward.

I'm sure it would have some impact. But given that you'd be stuck with less interesting encounter mechanics, and that many players would need 10s to actually raid with their friends and familiy, and given that the logistical difference between 5s and 10s is marginal, you'd probably be surrpised at how many would stick with 10s. My guess is many would do both formats.

That would still bring us to conclusion that really big chunk of 10 man raiders support some kind of a change, it's really clear.

I know of no 10 man raider who actively wants 25s to die. And there isn't much of an argument that something needs to be doen to help 25s. But I also know of few who want 10s to die to save 25s.

As for the rest - MMO is visited by many non raiders, yes. However, that doens't make that selection representative. Most WoW players don't come here. Most don't go to the official forums. What you have here on these forums is a minority of players who are very interested in the game - more so than most other players. In addition, they will browse only the forums they are interested in, read the posts that catch their attention. At each stage, the audience for that poll is increasingly self selected...which also makes them more atypical of the average player. Add in that only those who dislike the current system are likely to actually vote in a poll and any and all poll results on this forum have to be treated with skepticism. At best, its in indicator but all the poll really tells us is that a majority of players who could be bothered to vote in a poll with a self selected polling sample wanted change to help 25s. Asking them to kill off 10s as a result of this poll is perhaps stretching that a little far.

As I said, given all those factors, the fact that it is only at - 65%? you said - is a little surprising to me. I expected more of an interest.

EJL

[Deleted]

The most famous US thread on the matter, started from an Avast raider to "warn" blizzard not to proceed with this change in the US/EU...
So much about the claim that only those that dislike current model would vote to a poll like the one on discussion.

But then again what to expect when i keep refusing to browse this pages AFTER loging in and my eyes fall on the usual walls of text?

[Talen]

The most famous US thread on the matter, started from an Avast raider to "warn" blizzard not to proceed with this change in the US/EU...
So much about the claim that only those that dislike current model would vote to a poll like the one on discussion.

No. Thats putting words in my mouth.

To put it simply - any business will expect a LOT more complaints than compliments. If something goes wrong, then the customers tend to make a big deal out of it. If something goes right, even exceptionally so, then that is what they pay for.

So when looking at a poll like this, you need to take into account factors such as - who sees the poll? People who read this forum. People who read that title. That title will tend to attract those interetsed in that subject. so that means the audience there isn't likely to be a representative sample. Whats more, by actually voting, they'll likely be those expressing their displeasure at the current situation.

Its why you can't really trust polls like this. They do give some useful info, but you can't really draw any useful conclusions from them.

EJL

[Deleted]

And i am telling you that people that know about the "Korean experiment" and hate the idea of it becoming reality for EU/NA (omg if only!), would rush like bulls, to vote "shared locks/same loot" to make sure that "the others" wont win!

Really poor argumentation EJL, as always.

And less than 34% believes that the current model is ideal, with 95% of the guilds raiding 10?
Hmmm

[Talen]

And i am telling you that people that know about the "Korean experiment" and hate the idea of it becoming reality for EU/NA (omg if only!), would rush like bulls, to vote "shared locks/same loot" to make sure that "the others" wont win!

Win? Win? You think people care about skewing a poll on the forums like this?

And less than 34% believes that the current model is ideal, with 95% of the guilds raiding 10?

As I said, most people register complaints, not compliments. The ones who like the status quo aren't usually going to be motivated to respond to polls like this.You could argue it is right all you want - maybe it is. The point is, the poll (by its ntaure) is inherently biased and as a result can't be trusted. At best, it confirms whats been said for the past two years. Something needs to be done regarding the state of 25s.

EJL

[Deleted]

Then you haven't been reading my posts on this issue.

You've been obsessively posting these walls of texts for half a year over and over. Everyone knows what you think by now, and nobody is going to bother reading through all of them.

Yes...YOUR ***PERCEIVED*** risk/reward is different. Raid leaders do more work and that isn't rewarded. True. That is a deterrent to having raid form in the first place. But if you aren't a raid leader...yuor workload is the same. Your rotation is the same. You have the same mechanics to react to. You see the same content.

And that's wrong. "Work" is irrelevant. Every single raider has a decision to make: 25 or 10. If they go 10 they get better risk-reward (they know their expected rate of progress is faster). Every single player in a 25 man raid also has a constant force pushing them to 10 mans because moving from 25 to 10 will increase their expected rewards. That's why in order to have a fair decision problem (people are free to choose based on size) you must increase the rewards or decrease the risk for 25 mans, i.e., either nerf them so that the performance requirement is less than 10 man or provide higher rewards than 10 man.

Where is this extra risk you speak of coming from? Is it simply the perception that 25s are harder? This was spoken of in Cataclysm as well, and was and is a popular myth. Even today, there are players on this thread who swear that 10s are harder.

It's not a myth. It's a simple fact of life that overcoming a challenge that requires coordinated execution from 25 people will always be harder than 10. Of course there are people who claim 10s are harder, they have to defend their egos and pretend that what they're doing is the same as 25 man raiders even though it actually requires less skill and effort.

[Raziael]

Hopefully they don't take with US servers... LFM 10m to merge!

[Deleted]

God I hope they don't do this with EU/US too.
Will be fun to merge with another guild again, not.
Oh and the "10man's are faceroll" will be back again when 25man raiders go there with their 20ilvl's better 25man hc gear...

Seperate the lockouts, I don't care if someone gets the gear faster than me.
But don't force people to go 25man if they wanna have the best gear available in the game. I could even go as far as let the 25man raiders have their legendarys and don't give them to 10man raiders, but don't up the ilvl in 25man.
Seriously.

[Hakto]

It amuses me that for so long people have been saying there is no difficulty difference between 10 and 25 and people will just run the raid size they prefer and it does not matter that much in the scheme of things if 25 mans died.

Yet as soon as Blizz talks about seperating lockouts and rewarding 25's a little, there is all this QQ about how it will ruin 10 man raiding and kill 10 man guilds, what happened to running the size you want regardless of any loot difference? More importantly, if 10 man's die because people choose to run 25's for the better loot, so be it.

[Rixarius]

I do not support this.


This would '2 steps back' as far as I'm concerned. People who prefer the 10-man raiding should not be penalized for not running 25s. It's just asinine. I understand a sympathize with the "save the 25 mans" mindset, but this is not a way to approach it. Essentially giving 10 mans the shaft to make it 'fair' for 25 mans. But the problem isn't fairness, it's just people have an easier time putting together and managing 10 man raids. There will ALWAYS be a large group of people that prefer to raid 25 mans, therefor, as long as there is 25 people who want to do 25 man raids, they'll never die.

If anything, give them more loot drops per boss kill for the amount of extra effort they put into raiding, but going back to ICC style is not the way to solve this issue. It's just ripping a bandaid off of one scab to put it on another.

[araine]

Who is forcing your to steamroll 10-man heroics? You can continue doing strict 10 man (I hope achievements require you to not wear 25 man gear in 10 man) and just forget that 25 man even exists.

And regardless if that 10 man heroics is 10 times harder than the 25man it will still be labeled teh kiddie mode. No thanks on this change and hopefully blizzard got as much sense that they dont give this.

[Deleted]

You've been obsessively posting these walls of texts for half a year over and over. Everyone knows what you think by now, and nobody is going to bother reading through all of them.



And that's wrong. "Work" is irrelevant. Every single raider has a decision to make: 25 or 10. If they go 10 they get better risk-reward (they know their expected rate of progress is faster). Every single player in a 25 man raid also has a constant force pushing them to 10 mans because moving from 25 to 10 will increase their expected rewards. That's why in order to have a fair decision problem (people are free to choose based on size) you must increase the rewards or decrease the risk for 25 mans, i.e., either nerf them so that the performance requirement is less than 10 man or provide higher rewards than 10 man.

Raiders don't make the decision - raid leaders do. If the average raider can't find someone to indulge his 25 man preferences he's SOL - but that's fine because it just means he's too lazy to merit 24 other peoples time and energy.

It's not a myth. It's a simple fact of life that overcoming a challenge that requires coordinated execution from 25 people will always be harder than 10. Of course there are people who claim 10s are harder, they have to defend their egos and pretend that what they're doing is the same as 25 man raiders even though it actually requires less skill and effort.

Only person putting more effort in is the RL. Everything else is the same. If you look at it baldly, yu can say that there is statistically a higher chance that someone fucks up in 25 compared to 10 man, but you'd only do that if you were the sort of drooling cretin who thought a 10 to 25 direct comparion was valid for failure measuring on that metric, and not 25 man to 3x 10 man.

If you look at 25 people and compare them to another 25 people, then the chance of failure is identical.

[RyanEX]

I'll never get why people insist that they'll feel forced to do both 10 and 25.

Why? To be competitive? If you're a top 10/00 guild you wouldn't complain since you're already doing shit to be competitive. If your guild is casual then what do you care? Seperate lockouts won't be a factor to you.

At the end of the day it sounds to me like those in 10man guilds are scared that if 25mans get a seperate lockout they'll lose raiders since they're afraid that most in their guilds still favour 25mans but only do 10s since it's perceived that 25s are dying.