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  1. #281
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Nope. Most raiders seek someone else to lead them through raids. Therefore it is raid leaders preference which decides the format.




    Because i've played wow since vanilla beta, and lead raids, just been in raids etc since it launched. Dpsing a large raid is idenitcal to dpsing a small one. Tanking is identical. Healing is slightly different in that you have more allocation (but AOE heals do more so it evens out.)

    Raid leading a huge raid is a massive pain in the arse.

    Raid leading a 10 man is kinda alright. For the same loot, a raid leader is going to pick 10 man. Raiders in general just seek someone to hold their hands so they can get their loot and don't care much where they do their identical job - as long as they are getting the best shinies they can.
    Well, considering you don't even know how AOE healing works between 10 and 25 man, mr vanilla raider, I'd say you should probably read up more on stuff before getting into an argument. AOE heals diminish in power after the 6th target, which basicly means that it doesn't matter if you're hitting 6, 10 or 25 people - the overall healing will be the same. Looking up our hpally (in 489 average) vs one of my 10 man raider friends (in 483 avg), ours radiance ticks for about 3.7K, while my friend's ticks for about 8.7K. 3.7K*2.5 (the power it would have if it hit 10 target instead of 25)=9.2. Which is accountable for due to higher gear level.

    Comparing resto shamans, same thing happens - my friend's guilds shaman is in 481 ilvl, so is ours. Ours Healing Rain ticked for an average of 1.6K per. The 10 man shamans ticked for 6.3K. You don't even need to do the math to see that the 10 man is actually getting almost 4 times as much bang for their buck here. Which is kind of odd, but my point still stands - AOE healing is no more effective in 25 mans than in 10 mans due to maximum healing power on the spell. Actually, Resto Druids and Disc Priests (whose AOE is capped, or wildly inefficient, like mushrooms for druids), become alot *stronger* in 10 man due to their capped AOE spells like Effloresence, Wild Growth and Prayer of Healing needing to be *strong* to work out in a 25 man enviroment compared to other healers. While in 10 man, they absolutly stomp on other similiar things. Our alt raid in DS had me healing with a shaman and a disc priest. When we got to the point where we had enough gear to stomp everything, the priest would stop me and the shaman from healing due to divine Aegis spam on one group, never letting them take damage.

  2. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Well, my hope is that they put this out there for KR and CN and see what happens. If 10-man raiding suddenly dies or becomes completely and entirely secondary to 25-man raiding, i.e. 10-man raiding basically gets abandoned in terms of importance, then it's unlikely that US/EU will ever see it. That's coming from someone that prefers 25-format raids. Somehow the pendulum needs to stop somewhere close to the middle on this instead of swinging wildly from one side to the other.

    Wait and see is all that anyone can do.
    10 man raiding will not die, it is a format for family and friends a fun format, like a former guild collegue put it. On the other hand he loved 25 man raiding because it was where the challenge was. This was said during wotlk.
    And looking back on that period you could have very relaxed fun 10 man raids, and get a challenge in 25 man.
    Why does 10 man raiding have to be important, why can't it just be that fun format that was significantly more fun to do than lfr is today.

    I also think that this over focus on 10 man is reducing the possibility for hybrid classes to play their preferred role in raids. To take a real story i know a retribution paladin who has to play holy paladin now for the 3 straight week because her 10 man group needs her to that and after 3 weeks it gets rather frustrating for her. In the good old days of 25 man raiding in wotlk 3 weeks in a row having to do that didn't happen.

    Another interresting question is 10 man supporters always say i raid 10 man because i feel more important. Weel in my mind when i thing about it a new player going into raiding who doesn't know the ropes for raiding will get thrown about because well you've got very few people to compare with and to bad performance and your out, because you can always get a new raider. Where as in 25 man raiding in my experience there was a bit more rope to try to get people to get better, where some did become significantly better. Sure we did carry some very bad players that after getting tips anf tricks didn't improve, that we had to kick but still we did give them a bit more rope. So somehow i would rather call the 10 man guilds out as having a higher potential risk to become elitist people who have a very low tolerance of difference.

    Why did Blizzard start the mentor guild program??? I got a theory because people don't gather in big raiding guilds anymore on the casual level where there are other players that can teach and educate each other to become better players.

    The casual guilds have transformed to 10 man guilds. Just look at the statistics that archedamos have posted numerous times about the amount of 25 man guilds at 4/16 or 6/16.
    Last edited by Dax75; 2012-10-29 at 08:28 AM.

  3. #283
    Separate lockouts and a higher difficulty trend for 25 just give more choices, and attempting to make two entirely different group sizes (the entire point of a larger group is that it's meant to be harder to co-ordinate) the same in difficulty is impossible. They're different animals and need to be treated like different animals.

    The only problem is that, with separate lockouts and different reward levels, 10-man heroics are easier for people who have done 25 normal than for people who have just done 10 normal. There's two reasons for that; if you do both lockouts, you've had more chances to get gear, and the 25 gear is of a higher ilvl. It's a hard problem to get around and was a real kick in the face for any 10-man exclusive guilds when lockouts were separate. They didn't have a chance in hell of being competitive on their own turf, and it can also lead to encounters being balanced around the presumption of 25-man gear. That issue has to be sorted out before this system returns.
    Last edited by Eats Compost; 2012-10-29 at 08:36 AM.

  4. #284
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Well, my hope is that they put this out there for KR and CN and see what happens. If 10-man raiding suddenly dies or becomes completely and entirely secondary to 25-man raiding, i.e. 10-man raiding basically gets abandoned in terms of importance, then it's unlikely that US/EU will ever see it. That's coming from someone that prefers 25-format raids. Somehow the pendulum needs to stop somewhere close to the middle on this instead of swinging wildly from one side to the other.

    Wait and see is all that anyone can do.
    I am not a 25 ppl raider but a 10 man myself but waiting for the proper timing to return to 25.

    What you say makes sence and sounds nicely.

    In truth though, the "thin white line" that we shouldn't cross, is very hard to be distinguished.
    Realistically, seeing both as the same is the trap.
    If you do, defacto 10 man becomes the dominant way to raid, since the other option is lots of efford and lots of risk for nothing.

    There has to be a distinction, there is no other way to be done.
    Now, that distinction doesnt have to include higher ilv loot, but if we wanna be honest this is the only way that will provide a stable 25 people raiding environment.

    That, or making encounters significantly easier on 25, which atm is a "no no" since the crushing majority of the best players in the world play 25.

    So what a "moderate" change should include in order to not be "gamebreaking" for the 10 man teams?

    - Seperate achievements for all bosses maybe? Mutually exclusive even?
    - Seperate locks maybe?
    - Different vanity items?
    - Different loot quality?
    - Exclusive access to legendaries?
    - Improved utility? (Cauldrons/Feasts 25 only, "have group will travel" 25 only, Mass ressurection 25 only, mobile reforger maybe?). I mean Every guild has access to those perks but they become active only in a 25 ppl (guild?) group.

    Nothing and all can be considered "game breaking" for 10 people raiding teams, but if we want to be honest, the "real deal" is the loot. If higher for 25 it will be the driving force for the people that prefer 25 and currently raid 10 to move back to them, but also the "neutrals" that 100% of them raids 10, and some people that prefer 10 man even, since their preference for size comes second, when placed next to "progress" and/or "loot".
    Pretty much it will reverse the situation that we experience today, especially if the item level difference is significant (8 ilv can be considered significant enough).

  5. #285
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Well, considering you don't even know how AOE healing works between 10 and 25 man, mr vanilla raider, I'd say you should probably read up more on stuff before getting into an argument. AOE heals diminish in power after the 6th target, which basicly means that it doesn't matter if you're hitting 6, 10 or 25 people - the overall healing will be the same. Looking up our hpally (in 489 average) vs one of my 10 man raider friends (in 483 avg), ours radiance ticks for about 3.7K, while my friend's ticks for about 8.7K. 3.7K*2.5 (the power it would have if it hit 10 target instead of 25)=9.2. Which is accountable for due to higher gear level.

    Comparing resto shamans, same thing happens - my friend's guilds shaman is in 481 ilvl, so is ours. Ours Healing Rain ticked for an average of 1.6K per. The 10 man shamans ticked for 6.3K. You don't even need to do the math to see that the 10 man is actually getting almost 4 times as much bang for their buck here. Which is kind of odd, but my point still stands - AOE healing is no more effective in 25 mans than in 10 mans due to maximum healing power on the spell. Actually, Resto Druids and Disc Priests (whose AOE is capped, or wildly inefficient, like mushrooms for druids), become alot *stronger* in 10 man due to their capped AOE spells like Effloresence, Wild Growth and Prayer of Healing needing to be *strong* to work out in a 25 man enviroment compared to other healers. While in 10 man, they absolutly stomp on other similiar things. Our alt raid in DS had me healing with a shaman and a disc priest. When we got to the point where we had enough gear to stomp everything, the priest would stop me and the shaman from healing due to divine Aegis spam on one group, never letting them take damage.
    I'm glad you agree that raid leaders decide which format is going to be run, that most raiders just want to be lead around and are lazy and that the right way to motivate the playerbase is to reward raid leading more, not general raiding.

    I'm also glad you agree that DPSing 25 is more or less exactly the same as 10m as is tanking.

    On your specific disagreement, all you are saying is that healing is so much easier on 25 man that it needed nerfing to be balanced because of the extra healer that will be present. Ok then, I agree with that.

    Overall I agree, we should reward 10 mans more than 25's as it's more likely to reward the person doing all the extra work - the RL.
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  6. #286
    Quote Originally Posted by Drunkenfinn View Post
    Oh god... Being forced to run both 10 and 25man again?

    Please no
    You were never forced to run them in the first place. You did it on your own. Blizz did not hold your hand and make you walk into the dungeon. So tired of the "forced" argument.

  7. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    I'm glad you agree that raid leaders decide which format is going to be run, that most raiders just want to be lead around and are lazy and that the right way to motivate the playerbase is to reward raid leading more, not general raiding.

    I'm also glad you agree that DPSing 25 is more or less exactly the same as 10m as is tanking.

    On your specific disagreement, all you are saying is that healing is so much easier on 25 man that it needed nerfing to be balanced because of the extra healer that will be present. Ok then, I agree with that.

    Overall I agree, we should reward 10 mans more than 25's as it's more likely to reward the person doing all the extra work - the RL.
    I don't see Draco agreeing with you at any of the points you mention.

    Further more i dont see him talking about either tanking or dpsing 10 or 25.

    You should seriously try to avoid putting words in other people mouths deliberately, you are reminding me of a child with this aproach of yours that telling him he is wrong with arguments and his reply is "no i am not, i am not i am NOT!"

    Those posts of yours, achieve nothing more than derailing the conversation from the subject to how clueless and uninformed what you claims are.

    Further more you cannot agree with someone that disagrees with you, without him or you revising his point of view.
    Seriously you need to check how you aproach people that you want "to agree" with.

  8. #288
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archidamos View Post
    I don't see Draco agreeing with you at any of the points you mention.

    Further more i dont see him talking about either tanking or dpsing 10 or 25.
    I took his lack of disagreement as agreement. Was that wrong?

    If you agree with this, don't mention it in response.
    You should seriously try to avoid putting words in other people mouths deliberately, you are reminding me of a child with this aproach of yours that telling him he is wrong with arguments and his reply is "no i am not, i am not i am NOT!"

    Those posts of yours, achieve nothing more than derailing the conversation from the subject to how clueless and uninformed what you claims are.

    Further more you cannot agree with someone that disagrees with you, without him or you revising his point of view.
    Seriously you need to check how you aproach people that you want "to agree" with.
    Well he had plenty of time to type and spent all of it on a very minor correction to my post (a correction which actually proves my point if thought about for 2 minutes, but hey ho.)

    I assume that if he disagreed with any of my other points, something would have been typed.
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  9. #289
    Quote Originally Posted by Zukumani View Post
    So my question is, if this becomes popular and people start crying out for it to come to US/EU Do you think it will happen?
    Honestly? No.

    Too much disruption to guilds, and its too soon after the launch of MoP - if Blizzard actually thought there was a major issue here, that would have been the most likely time for them to introduce a change of this magnitude. I also don't actually see much chance of a major outcry; a loud one from a few players, yes...but not a major one.

    Having said that, if Blizzard do decide 25s need saving urgently, this is the path they need to go.

    EJL

  10. #290
    Mechagnome Dragore's Avatar
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    I would like this to happen so i can then hear all of these "hardcore raiders" complain about being "forced" to raid 5 raids a week.

    But seriously the system needs to stay as is. It's hard to have this kind of conversation here on these forums because it seems like majority of this community are the "hardcore raiders". Are 10m and 25m unbalanced? Yes it would be impossible to balance this, but i think Blizz are doing the best they can to actually balance this. You are not being forced to do anything but when you take raids seriously and you want to min/max to get heroics you are expected to get the best gear thats available. Thats at least how i was when i used to raid during vanilla > WotLK.

    Slow down

  11. #291
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragore View Post
    I would like this to happen so i can then hear all of these "hardcore raiders" complain about being "forced" to raid 5 raids a week.

    Ehm, who told you that "the hardcore raiders" only or mainly are asking for seperate locks?
    And also who told you that it is something we havent seen before? You know we ve been around in Wrath too?
    And lastly, who told you that if this goes live all people will do both every single week? I will certainly not unless if i feel like it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragore View Post
    But seriously the system needs to stay as is. It's hard to have this kind of conversation here on these forums because it seems like majority of this community are the "hardcore raiders". Are 10m and 25m unbalanced? Yes it would be impossible to balance this, but i think Blizz are doing the best they can to actually balance this. You are not being forced to do anything but when you take raids seriously and you want to min/max to get heroics you are expected to get the best gear thats available. Thats at least how i was when i used to raid during vanilla > WotLK.

    Slow down
    Your opinion about people not being "forced" to downsize under current model is noted.
    Never herd of it before...Ehm, i am lying here soz :P
    Also you opinion that things should stay as they are...No, no i dont think so, i think a change is needed.

    I will slow down when i quit or when i don't feel like playing much.
    But talking about a game that you re not intenting to play much and with this criterion trying to argue that the others should do the same?
    Hmm.. something doesnt seem very logical in all this!...

  12. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by thurizas View Post
    Blizzard doesn't need to test this system -- they already have well over two years of data on non-shared lockout and better gear dropping from 25-mans. This is what we did in Cata -- remember ToC and ICC?
    )
    To this day Ulduar is considered one of the best raids ever - it had diff lockouts for 10 amd 25 yet you seem to have glossed over that and only mentioned the 2 raids people disliked the most.

  13. #293
    - The "we don't want you to the same boss twice a week" argument doesn't hold true anymore with te launch of LFR. Everyone does the instance twice per week, whether that be for valor, fun or practice.

    - The competition scene suffered a lot from the lockout merger, especially achievement merger. More and more guilds are going 25 man because if 25 and 10 is the same race, then for most guilds it's easier to run 10 man (i am talking organisation here, don't get butthurt on difficulty yet). In other words, it's a race in which two types of horses compete.

    - The fact this is now the case in KR and Asia means that we no longer have a world race / competition. We have EU + US and on the other side Asia. While i do think this is a great way to globalise your business (/endsarcasm), this furthermore hinders the game as an eSport. At least arena is intact, but immagine in Korea only pallys had bubble and in Europe everyone had it... would be disastrous.


    ==>> Separating lockouts is the step 1. Will allow people who want to play more to actually play more.
    What is butthurting people the ilvl thing. The separate lockout thing is desparately needed

  14. #294
    The amount of potential raids throughout the week will get kinda silly but I think it would be nice to have the choice...will be nice to raid with another 2 guilds in a 25 man.

  15. #295
    You clearly didn't read what I said. My entire argument was that healing in 25 man was far harder (there's more healers per person in 10 man, AOE heals has the exact same healing power, less debuffs to handle/targets to heal so less accidental cross-heal). If you can't see that, and think I'm actually proving your point, feel free to provide proof thereof. Untill then, you are, as Archidamos said, acting like an immature child, because someone managed to disagree with you and you can't make a counterargument that'll stick.

  16. #296
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuthe View Post
    Oh yeah, no problem blizz.
    Don't worry about EU and US.

    God I wish we had sensible laws like most Asian countries.

    Separating them would be amazing. Double transmog runs, and being able to be involved in 25 and 10 man raids like in Wrath.
    QQ fest, as it's a mandatory to run both lockouts, not to mention the even more mandatory LFR where you cant queue with fellow raiders and have to do solo with other 24 randoms, who afk, as mandatory daily quests, my Gin-ji knife set is a BIS against Feng and my Serpents help fight off the 4 Kings. Dont make mandatory.

  17. #297
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    You clearly didn't read what I said. My entire argument was that healing in 25 man was far harder (there's more healers per person in 10 man, AOE heals has the exact same healing power, less debuffs to handle/targets to heal so less accidental cross-heal). If you can't see that, and think I'm actually proving your point, feel free to provide proof thereof. Untill then, you are, as Archidamos said, acting like an immature child, because someone managed to disagree with you and you can't make a counterargument that'll stick.
    I already outlined why you prove my point.

    Firstly, you only disagree with one of my points (generally spomeone who wants to disagree but who has no counter will pick one thing they think is weak and hammer at it, ignoring all else) and on that point, all you say is that AOE healing is so good that it needed nerfing to be balanced in 25 man.

    So I agree. AOE healing is overpowered in 25 man.
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  18. #298
    Quote Originally Posted by Eiffeltower View Post
    - The "we don't want you to the same boss twice a week" argument doesn't hold true anymore with te launch of LFR. Everyone does the instance twice per week, whether that be for valor, fun or practice.
    It likely never was the main reason for the shared lockout....just an additional benefit as it addressed some concerns. As for "doing it twice"...LFR is much easier, often less frustrating and I've heard soem say it feels good to blow of steam at the boss on LFR. Truth is, burnout is probably less of a concern with LFR simply because it is so easy for players who do normal/heroics. Even so, I can easily see the shared lockout being removed, especially if Blizzard put in mechanics to help deal with the various issues involved.

    - The competition scene suffered a lot from the lockout merger, especially achievement merger. More and more guilds are going 25 man because if 25 and 10 is the same race, then for most guilds it's easier to run 10 man (i am talking organisation here, don't get butthurt on difficulty yet). In other words, it's a race in which two types of horses compete.
    Last I checked, Blizzard didn't balance for or design around the cutting edge guild, progression races or anything similar. The achievement merger was designed, AIR, to ensure players could do either format without feeling like they were missing out, to avoid players feeling obliged to do a particular format simply for the achievement, to emphasise that the formats were essentially the same in Blizzards eyes, and to avoid one format or achievement being seen as more prestigious and therefore required/mandatory.

    The downside is that achievement hunters no longer feel obliged to run 25s if they don't want to, which affects the pool size of players wanting to do 25s. And some feel there is a loss in "identity" by not having format specific achievments. And some feel that the formats feel so different that they essentially are different encounters and worthy of recognition as such.

    - The fact this is now the case in KR and Asia means that we no longer have a world race / competition. We have EU + US and on the other side Asia. While i do think this is a great way to globalise your business (/endsarcasm), this furthermore hinders the game as an eSport. At least arena is intact, but immagine in Korea only pallys had bubble and in Europe everyone had it... would be disastrous.
    Blizzard gave up on WoW as a serious esport some time ago. There are too many imbalances in the game. As for the world race....as I said above, last I checked, Blizzard didn't balance for or design around the cutting edge guilds, progression races or anything similar.

    ==>> Separating lockouts is the step 1. Will allow people who want to play more to actually play more.
    What is butthurting people the ilvl thing. The separate lockout thing is desparately needed
    It would give some people want they want. How many would actually take advantage it if Blizzard addressed the various concerns they expressed about it is another.

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2012-10-31 at 08:19 AM.

  19. #299
    Herald of the Titans Seriss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    You clearly didn't read what I said. My entire argument was that healing in 25 man was far harder (there's more healers per person in 10 man, AOE heals has the exact same healing power, less debuffs to handle/targets to heal so less accidental cross-heal). If you can't see that, and think I'm actually proving your point, feel free to provide proof thereof. Untill then, you are, as Archidamos said, acting like an immature child, because someone managed to disagree with you and you can't make a counterargument that'll stick.
    From my experience and impression, healing in 25-man isn't harder than healing in 10-man. This isn't a discussion about "but this encounter is easier to heal in x raid size!" or something.

    I've been doing mainly 25-mans up until MoP and some additional 10-man at the end of Cata. Healing a 10-man requires much more thought from me than healing a 25-man. In MoP, I've been doing 10-mans so far, and I'll stick to it unless I'm prompted to do otherwise.
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