Separate 10 and 25 Man Raid Lockout and Reward Changes in Korea

[Zechs-cenarius]

constant flip flopping on blizzard. Yep they have no direction. They seem so far away from their actual customer base its becoming more and more evident with shit like this.

[Ticktock]

You haven't done many 25 mans have you?

On the contrary. I raided 40s, 25s and only in towards the end of the first tier of cataclysm did I start raiding in 10man exclusively.
I may have trivialised the differences, but honestly the difficulty level is similar. No one "deserves more" in terms of gear level (not actual amount of loot, fine with the amount that drops in 25) because they have the ability to maintain a roster of 30 skilled players, when the trial of raiding 10 mans is just as challenging, if not more so in *some* encounters.

[Perkunas]

constant flip flopping on blizzard. Yep they have no direction. They seem so far away from their actual customer base its becoming more and more evident with shit like this.

You mean shit like where they combined lockouts in the first place...

[Rivyr]

You actually don't know that. Some might, some won't....Either way, it's a big mental shift that is having people question "is this the way I want to play?". Yes/no?

Its just a general statement made under the sterotype that people threaten it but keep playing anyways. That said the idea as a whole has merit and can potentialy promote social activity in wow again. Createing a scenario in which people from the ten man guilds who want to do the 25's as well could come together and play instead of leaving everyone isolated in small groups with no drive/motivation to talk to other people on your server.

LFG killed the need to talk to people to for groups and find friends outside of your guild.

LFR killed the pug raid aspect by giving all the casual players a sure shot at a que

the down sizeing of raids from 40 to 25 lowered the social aspect of a guild

25 and 10 man on a single shared lockout with no incentive to do 25 forced alot of guilds to split and drop the numbers of a guild down to 10 or so actual members.

So why not bring back something that would promote some sort of social growth before this game becomes a pay to play single player game?

[gingersenshi]

They should just make the 10 man and 25 man raids be different instances like TBC kind of tried but screwed up by having Kara be the first raid. Then you can argue about ilvl as much as you want because they are completely different instances.
But then that'd cause blizzard to actually stop slacking on creating new raids and well that just wouldn't do would it.

[Kiry]

So why not bring back something that would promote some sort of social growth before this game becomes a pay to play single player game?

I'm not sure how this would do that. I've been there and done this thing, and I don't recall any more or less social play than I have now. I do recognize to each their own. Some people would love this, obviously the reverse is true for reasons each hold dear to themselves.

For me, this would not be a successful and fun gameplay. I'm balance very carefully the demands of progressive raiding with my career, any more and I will not be able to give. That's my problem, which means less fun, which means I question if I will play or not. There are certainly other choices out there.

See isn't choice an interesting thing?

[Paisti]

Its just a general statement made under the sterotype that people threaten it but keep playing anyways. That said the idea as a whole has merit and can potentialy promote social activity in wow again. Createing a scenario in which people from the ten man guilds who want to do the 25's as well could come together and play instead of leaving everyone isolated in small groups with no drive/motivation to talk to other people on your server.

LFG killed the need to talk to people to for groups and find friends outside of your guild.

LFR killed the pug raid aspect by giving all the casual players a sure shot at a que

the down sizeing of raids from 40 to 25 lowered the social aspect of a guild

25 and 10 man on a single shared lockout with no incentive to do 25 forced alot of guilds to split and drop the numbers of a guild down to 10 or so actual members.

So why not bring back something that would promote some sort of social growth before this game becomes a pay to play single player game?

Because there should be options which dont favor either side. Besides, this game for ME is much more social in my current 10m, you are much more close to everyone than in 25's. Again only my opinion.

[Confucius]

seperating the 10 and 25 will probably kill the 10 progression because 25 man guilds will dominate the 10 man progression. Mainly because of better gear and optimal comps. There have been suggestions in this thread of some sort of gear normalization if 25 man goes to do 10 man. But the question is to what the gear is normalized to? Full hc 25 man gear to be normalized to full 10 hc gear? yeah, I dont think that'll work out. All in all, it will be a mess

[Paisti]

TBH I think my biggest concern about this is that there would be 10 AND 25 left if this will happen. I would take it with open arms if it was ONLY 25 or 40.

This just creates the problem that another drops better loot = always some ppl go there = it affects your guild = it affects everyone.


Hard to understand how Blizzard does this once again. We have 2 options now, after this we have basically only 1.

[SinR]

complete and utter bullshit

[mvallas]

And now... since they waited WAAAAY to damn long - here comes the influx of 10 man guilds crying that they "need" to form 25 mans to be counted as progression. ^_^

Sadly Blizz - you should've made this change somewhere in mid-Cataclysm... not 2 years later...

[Umbrokill]

Haha, I don't understand why people are getting angry. This is the way it was back in Wrath and honestly it made more sense. 10man is anyway you look at it easier to complete than 25man, therefore people who run 25man raids should get better rewards.

"Omg this will kill 10man guilds" etc. well, this is just like when this change was implementet in Cata, only that the 25man guilds were the ones that had to disband/change. Give it one month max and everything will be back to normal.

For the burnout part having to run LFR, 10man and 25man a week is a bit much to get the best gear. But on the other hand now people will start making 25man raids again, the way they should be IMO

I for one hope this change hits EU.

The fact that its only in Korea now is most likely because they are testing it there to see how people like the change.

[Khedgar]

Meh. Just make 10/25 into a single 15-man and be done with it. Also reset the lockout twice/week instead of once.

Easier to balance everything with only one size, logistically and encounterwise.

Plus it would end this constant 10 vs 25 bickering, which I'm getting very tired of.

And those who think this is a 'test' in Korea, think again. In Korea they pay per minute to play WoW, not a monthly fee like EU/US.
It's all about the money, damdamdadada dam.

[stfouri]

I don't mind the seperatelock outs.
But having a one expansion without the better gear from 25mans and to bring it back again...
Seriously. Oh well atleast that would fix the problem, community managed to cook that everyone is turning into 10man guild.
Guess what, if this goes live again. There will be about 10-30 10man guilds left in the world again.

It was just like that in WotLK too, about 20guilds that were competive and strict 10man (no 25man normal pugging that dropped better gear than some of the 10man hc).

[zanderken3]

This makes me lawl

I can't stand 10man raiders who complain about these kinds of things. You dont HAVE to do 25man raids.... go do you're little 10 man raids ... get your little 10 man loot and continue playing the game like you already were gonna do this expansion. It's not like blizzard is gonna raise the damage dealt and HP of raid bosses for your 10 man crap just cause 25man loot is out there.

Also a few extra reasons of why 25man raids are more difficult than your 10 man group of best/circle of buddies.

- out of 25 ppl SOMEONE is just bound to go afk/use the bathroom/ dc' or have their cat on fire which causes the raid to lose time every raid night.
-Mechanics that are likely to wipe your WHOLE raid cause 1 person out of 25 decided to screw up a mechanic... i.e chain lightning... or Feng phase 3.
-Try recruiting for a 25m. I assume the top guilds on your servers are typically 10mans.... geez i wonder why.

[Kanegasi]

Meh. Just make 10/25 into a single 15-man and be done with it. Also reset the lockout twice/week instead of once.

Easier to balance everything with only one size, logistically and encounterwise.

Plus it would end this constant 10 vs 25 bickering, which I'm getting very tired of.

I can't, for the life of me, find where I think Ghostcrawler said if he made the game from the ground up, he would've just made 15man raids and that's it. The thing is though, I don't know if it was him. I want to think it was a tweet, but not sure.

[TradewindNQ]

Haha, I don't understand why people are getting angry. This is the way it was back in Wrath and honestly it made more sense. 10man is anyway you look at it easier to complete than 25man, therefore people who run 25man raids should get better rewards.

"Omg this will kill 10man guilds" etc. well, this is just like when this change was implementet in Cata, only that the 25man guilds were the ones that had to disband/change. Give it one month max and everything will be back to normal.

For the burnout part having to run LFR, 10man and 25man a week is a bit much to get the best gear. But on the other hand now people will start making 25man raids again, the way they should be IMO

I for one hope this change hits EU.

The fact that its only in Korea now is most likely because they are testing it there to see how people like the change.

You answered the question in your second sentence. It made more sense in Wrath, people like myself who were just happy as a pig in shit running a 25s guild for BC and WotLK didn't mind it at all. Then came Cata where that all changed. Again people like myself knew what that would mean, it would mean 25s competing with the appeal of 10s...smaller raid sizes, supposed easier content (I don't care either way on that issue), less instability with rosters and so on with the exact same rewards. We knew it would damage 25s, regardless of their supposed prestige. Why? Because there was no advantage. So, we dealt with it for 2 years of cata (for all intents and purposes), trying to maintain 25s and remain competitive within our circles and keep the raiding going all the while having a revolving door for people dropping to do 10s because it was comparatively more appealing. My guild of coming up to 6 years old, went to 10s start of MoP because it was just too much to deal with it for yet another expansion. We trimmed the fat, tightened up the core raiding group and now...this change is looming. I don't personally think it will ever see US/EU servers, but you might want to think about why this is a retarded change...or as it rightfully is a reversion to WotLK and why it is a terrible idea to try and shoe horn back into it at this point.

[Pisholina]

I hate this style of raids. I hated it back in WotLK. My laptop is too weak to support 25man raids, but I would be forced to do them if I want to get the best gear available for my character. A lot of people like 10man because they like raiding with their close group of friends. I REALLY don't want this to hit the EU servers.

[08nolanni]

I would Enjoy the shared lockouts removed so I could Raid 10 man and PUG 25 on the weekend or something.

It's pretty funny that 25 man needs not only more loot per a person but also more powerful loot.

Say's a lot about the I-LvL Gear Whores this game has.

Imo I still feel 10 man has more responsibility on the raider than 25 man ever will.

[Teye]

Brb, moving to Korea.