The Problem of GW2 PvE

[ControlBlue]

Well, it seems like the only way to prove to Anet that their design decision was the wrong one would be to make more articles/videos/ects.. showing how their PvE is bad.

Personally, the fact that any simpleton with enough time can just graveyard-zerg encounters some people take so much pride in not dying too, this simple thing shows how nonsensical their design is.

Wake me up when you will have people streaming GW2 PvE on Twitch and when those streams will have an audience that doesn't consist of wow fanboys making fun of the game or people complaining about the dungeons.

I can already see how this is going to end, the elitists will stay in their corners defending what IS a flawed design until they realize that they are the only few people still doing those contents, only then will they understand. I've seen it happen many times, in many games, and I fear that it will be no exception here.

Or maybe I'm just wrong and stupid and everything is fine, who knows .

[Window]

I agree with everythin Op said. PvE design in this game is bad, so bad it turned me off the game after hitting max level and trying dungeons for few days.

few days ??? thats totally legit

---------- Post added 2012-10-29 at 12:36 AM ----------

Well, it seems like the only way to prove to Anet that their design decision was the wrong one would be to make more articles/videos/ects.. showing how their PvE is bad.

Personally, the fact that any simpleton with enough time can just graveyard-zerg encounters some people take so much pride in not dying too, this simple thing shows how nonsensical their design is.

Wake me up when you will have people streaming GW2 PvE on Twitch and when those streams will have an audience that doesn't consist of wow fanboys making fun of the game or people complaining about the dungeons.

I can already see how this is going to end, the elitists will stay in their corners defending what IS a flawed design until they realize that they are the only few people still doing those contents, only then will they understand. I've seen it happen many times, in many games, and I fear that it will be no exception here.

Or maybe I'm just wrong and stupid and everything is fine, who knows .

from memory you could exploit bwl back in the day and zerg so many wow bosses it wasnt funny., I actually like gw 2 dungeons as a alternative to wow held my interest longer so far
as of of late any thread on mmo champion has just turned to flame bait

[Fencers]

Personally, the fact that any simpleton with enough time can just graveyard-zerg encounters some people take so much pride in not dying too, this simple thing shows how nonsensical their design is.

Huh? Not sure what you mean here- doesn't make sense.

None of the encounters are intended to be "graveyard rushed". They simply allow you to do so if a group is failing.

Option 1: Good play, progress with minimal deaths and little debt.
Option 2. Bad play, progress with gy rushing and incur heavy debt.


If the response of "get better at the game" is off putting for whatever reason then the alternative is to halt the encounters on party wipe.

Why exactly is it nonsense to allow lesser skilled players advancement at the cost of time & money?

Why is it flawed design?

Flawed design is when game systems or rules are contradictory to each other. Or when by rules as written the game is unplayable/winnable.

You're really just saying you don't like the dungeons- which is fine. Though that doesn't really mean it's flawed design, broken, yadayadda.

For the record; I find the dungeons in GW2 to be some of the least enjoyable dungeons I have ever experienced. Just an awful mess. So I definitely don't think these are "fun" dungeons. But there is a difference in "Oh I dislike this game mode" and "Oh this game mode is faulty".

Only one of those can be an opinion.

[ControlBlue]

It is flawed design because it kills the meaning of the challenge and I think it goes against what Anet was trying to do with GW2 (not sure about this one).

If anyone can down those bosses by just doing some repairs and paying with time, all you have accomplished by playing well is just saving yourself some time and money, INSTEAD of being THAT guy who managed to down this boss. Loss of possible prestige there.

Also making people pay with time is contrary to what Anet tried to do with GW2 which is reduce the mindless grinding and actually making you enjoy the game. I THINK it was a wish of them for GW2.

[Fencers]

It is flawed design because it kills the meaning of the challenge and I think it goes against what Anet was trying to do with GW2 (not sure about this one).

If anyone can down those bosses by just doing some repairs and paying with time, all you have accomplished by playing well is just saving yourself some time and money, INSTEAD of being THAT guy who managed to down this boss. Loss of possible prestige there.

Erm, what?

All PVE is cooperative in Guild Wars 2. The intention is a player would have fun doing activities for their own sake. "Pride" or prestige a player would feel from downing a boss perfectly is totally, 100% personal.

None of the Guild Wars games promote strict competition in PVE. It is traditionally a cooperative and casual driven play experience.

Again, this isn't a flaw. Just your personal dislike of that style. And again, that's fine too.

so making people pay with time is contrary to what Anet tried to do with GW2 which is reduce the mindless grinding and actually making you enjoy the game. I THINK it was a wish of them for GW2.

Paying with time is up to you.

Look into the death penalty in Guild Wars on the wiki. Arena.net are perfectly okay with a dungeon/mission/zone taking forever to clear due to player's own failures.

The death penalty used to be way harsher.

[melodramocracy]

Haha, you can't have meaningful boss fight mechanics without the trinity. It just doesn't work that way.

I half disagree with this. I think part of the issue isn't so much that tanking is essentially lacking, but that the ability to heal others is, for most classes, rather weak. I get that everyone is supposed to take care of themselves by design, but then, as stated, you wind up with encounters that don't have any particularly interesting approaches. On the other hand, this game is very young, and has a long time to improve.

[VibrantViolet]

I know it's trendy around here to turn every thread into a, "Oh yeah? Well, WoW is even worse!" distraction, but it really doesn't help the image of THIS game any.

Besides, Blizzard might have their issues, but it's really hard to knock (most of) their PvE encounter design.

I was replying to the poster I had quoted. He brought WoW into it, not me.

Dungeons in GW2 are not that hard. The only people that complain about them don't know how to do them right, have a "glass cannon" build, or run with a group that has a [insert MMO here] mentality. There are dungeons in WoW that I still like better, and probably will for a long time, but GW2 dungeons aren't terrible. You just have to learn the mechanics, dodge, and work as a team.

[ControlBlue]

Erm, what?

All PVE is cooperative in Guild Wars 2. The intention is a player would have fun doing activities for their own sake. "Pride" or prestige a player would feel from downing a boss perfectly is totally, 100% personal.

Is it that fun grinding the giant health bar of an enemy that can easily one-shot you and having to spend most time out of the fight running back to it?

Isn't the capacity to be recognized in a community for your deeds a core appeal of MMOs? The success of raiding in WoW and the publicity it gives to the game is a massive indication that the ability to generate that "Pride" and prestige is important to the success of an MMO. In defense pf GW2, I will say that they do a waaaayyyy better job doing that in PvP and hopefully it will keep getting better, in PvE not so much.

None of the Guild Wars games promote strict competition in PVE. It is traditionally a cooperative and casual driven play experience.

Again, this isn't a flaw. Just your personal dislike of that style. And again, that's fine too.

You seem to know really well the "spirit" of the GW franchise, maybe a bit too much lol. No but seriously, I DO remember them saying that UNLIKE GW1, PvE would get an equal share compared to PvP. That was one of the reasons they had the level increase, the dynamic events, and the open-world added to the game.

Paying with time is up to you.

Look into the death penalty in Guild Wars on the wiki. Arena.net are perfectly okay with a dungeon/mission/zone taking forever to clear due to player's own failures.

The death penalty used to be way harsher.

Alright, cool, it is your choice to do something that is unfun, tedious, and that in the end will reward very little, both in prestige and in money or character power. The same way it is your choice to sit on a pile of needles and enjoy it as much as you want! And you might be among the few that take great pleasure in that, no problem about that!!

However. why is GW2 offering to people the possibility of sitting on a pile of needles. It's NOT something people would massively enjoy, and it seems like a bad decision.

This might be a poor example to get my point across, but there are limits to this whole "to each his own", unfortunately in life some choice are clearly superior to others. The choice of making PvE like that is already proving to have been a mistake. There are both theoretical AND in real life examples through the multiple testimonies (out or in this thread), forum feedback AND the absence of any buzz around GW2 PvE, both on Twitch, Own3d, and Youtube.

A game is made to challenge and be fun, there are sensible reasons to believe GW2 PvE does a poor job at that. It is that simple. It's not because some people might enjoy sitting on needles that it suddenly becomes fun, its clearly not and can be demonstrated as being not fun, same with GW2 PvE.

Maybe I'm pushing my point too hard, it's just that in honestly think what I am saying is both sensible and true, and I have yet to see clear arguments against it outside of relativist claims and personal opinions that can be easily negated by other opinions and facts that look to be in way higher numbers (without even counting the wow fanboys in).

[Meledelion]

People seem to fail to realise that the design of Anet is very simple." Time spent " is the way Anet punishes or rewards people. Good groups can clear dungeons in half an hour and a bad group can still do it but it will take a lot longer.

For instance CoF my fastest P1 run was 6min, I've seen people advertise with <20min runs which makes me think that is common.
I don't care that ppl who are 3times slower than me still get the gear, I get/got the gear 3*faster meaning I can do other stuff.

Arah Lupicus Giganticus, this is a fight where most groups rely on GY rushing, this makes the fight (1boss) take 15min or more a good group can do this within 5minutes.

Think of it this way, anet wants everyone to see the content and everyone can. However a good player is rewarded by having fast runs and bad players are punished with long tedious runs.

Another funny thing is that a lot of players seem to go full on tank mode and expect that will keep them alive (tough/vit builds) whilst in reality most bosses have oneshot mechanics and going from 15 to 20k hp won't save you nor will having 500extra toughness. Getting those stats gives you some extra buffer, so you can fck up once or twice but you'll die if you keep doing it. If you play (near) perfectly there is no need to get those stats making your DPS higher and dungeons shorter.

The points of ControlBlue are valid, running back time and time again to kill a boss isn't fun, Hitting something and just not seeing any indication of you doing damage isn't fun.
But the game isn't designed with that as a goal or necesity, you can fall back on that if you're a bad player. This doesn't mean that everyone has to run back the entire time, and ofcourse the ppl who have to run back a lot (or don't see healthbars drop) are going to complain, everyone knows that the people who have difficulties with things will complain.

If you join a Dungeon guild you'll notice a lot of them find Dungeons to be way to easy, ofcourse if you only play with people who you find randomly and who don't speak your language (or pretend not to) you're going to have a harder time.

[Fencers]

Is it that fun grinding the giant health bar of an enemy that can easily one-shot you and having to spend most time out of the fight running back to it?

For me? No. Terribly boring.

For other players? It's obvious many do enjoy that style of gameplay.

There is no right or wrong on this issue. That's what I am driving at- GW2 has a particular style of PVE. Maybe a style not v. common to MMO dungeons. But that's cool too as games like DDO and Vindictus have their own style of dungeons. Not as popular as WoW, natch. Though both have fans still.

Isn't the capacity to be recognized in a community for your deeds a core appeal of MMOs?

No. Shared world/character persistence is the major hook of MMOs, generally & historically speaking.

The social aspects are not always emphasized to the same degree or in the same manner. Or at all in the case of some games even.

The success of raiding in WoW and the publicity it gives to the game is a massive indication that the ability to generate that "Pride" and prestige is important to the success of an MMO.

You mean it's an important part of WoW's PVE components. Agreed.

Not so much across all MMOs. In actuality few games are "WoW-like" in gameplay emphasis. Warcraft is sorta unique, or was for a long time.

You seem to know really well the "spirit" of the GW franchise, maybe a bit too much lol. No but seriously, I DO remember them saying that UNLIKE GW1, PvE would get an equal share compared to PvP. That was one of the reasons they had the level increase, the dynamic events, and the open-world added to the game.

Well, I am not sure what giving equal attention to PVE and PVP has to do with anything. Which by the way, Anet would say the same of GW1 because few developers would cannibalize their potential audience by saying stuff contra to that.

Also, what evidence is there Anet have put a greater emphasis on PVP over PVE at this point? Most of the game's additions are PVE game mode centric so far. Aside from general class balancing but that was not treating separately as in GW1 until last week. For like 2 skills.

This quoted bit doesn't seem relevant to any conversation here. Unless I am misreading you totally and if so, apologies. Not sure what this is meant to raise as a point.

Alright, cool, it is your choice to do something that is unfun, tedious, and that in the end will reward very little, both in prestige and in money or character power.

"Unfun" and tedious are personal, subjective terms. There are obviously those that do enjoy this style of dungeon gameplay.

Do you think there are just like a handful of people doing these dungeons in game?

Map chat during prime time is flooded to the point of unreadability with Group Seekers. There are whole guilds that are functions like player driven LFG channels- I am in one actually.

If you as a player are seeking power progression and reward progression- then you have bought the wrong game. Absolutely. So much so one of the first developer posts on the official forums read something like, "Guys, if you are seeking power rewards this might not be the game for you".

That criticism is purely consumer ignorance. Not one of the 5 games made in the Guild Wars series has ever offered such things beyond a hard, absolute cap.

This might be a poor example to get my point across, but there are limits to this whole "to each his own", unfortunately in life some choice are clearly superior to others. The choice of making PvE like that is already proving to have been a mistake.

Proving to be a mistake, how so?

Are Anet losing money?

Is the game tanking?

Are servers empty?

Are dungeons a barren wasteland of broken equips and naked Asura?

These are all dubious statements. I addressed them several times already- the MMO player that enjoys the style of gameplay of classical MMOs such as Everquest or World of Warcraft will find little purchase in Guild Wars 2.

And Anet are okay with such players seeking that "fix" elsewhere.


"Our goal is to make a game that people love. And they can have our game and World of Warcraft. Or only our game... We just want to make a great game. And we want to make a great Guild Wars 2 game. Other people are going to make MMOs of their own style. Our hope is they love our game style and also may have a regular MMO game as well."

Flat out. Anet are okay with players seeking a more traditional style of game elsewhere if their style isn't appealing to an individual player(s).

There are both theoretical AND in real life examples through the multiple testimonies (out or in this thread), forum feedback AND the absence of any buzz around GW2 PvE, both on Twitch, Own3d, and Youtube.

Speculation on my part here- but I think that's because GW2 is sorta not very interesting to watch. It's sort of too casual and shallow.

A game is made to challenge and be fun, there are sensible reasons to believe GW2 PvE does a poor job at that. It is that simple.

Sure. But you've so far only told me its bad because its bad. Which isn't sensible at all.

Maybe I'm pushing my point too hard, it's just that in honestly think what I am saying is both sensible and true, and I have yet to see clear arguments against it outside of relativist claims and personal opinions that can be easily negated by other opinions and facts that look to be in way higher numbers (without even counting the wow fanboys in).

Show me these facts.

[VibrantViolet]

I really don't understand why people bring up the "shortcomings" of PvE in GW2. It's all opinion based. You can try to justify your opinion as "fact" all you want, but it doesn't make it true. Some people enjoy it, some don't. Move on if you don't like it. It's as simple as that. Obviously a lot of people like it, hence why the servers are always full or high.

[Fencers]

I really don't understand why people bring up the "shortcomings" of PvE in GW2. It's all opinion based. You can try to justify your opinion as "fact" all you want, but it doesn't make it true. Some people enjoy it, some don't. Move on if you don't like it. It's as simple as that. Obviously a lot of people like it, hence why the servers are always full or high.

Hm. Your post is too level headed and sensible.

Needs more hyperbole and "facts" culled from the forums of a dozen different MMOs.

[ControlBlue]

The best factual proof I can give to you right now is to go in the Twitch.tv game page and look how many viewers GW2 has, and among the those channels how many are about PvE (hint: next to 0).

For other facts, you just have to look around here, the GW2 forums, hell the article linked in the first page is a pretty good read on how annoying the dungeons proved to be for someone who is a game designer and love GW2 (and some other people).

It proves to be a mistake because it invalidates GW2 as a PvE game, especially when compared to other games.

But hey, sure I'm wrong, it's all opinions, everything is relative.

The game has visibly lost a lot of steam since the release, way more than it should had even though it is usual for MMOs to lose some numbers after launch. And the fact that GW2 has no subs protects the game really well against "subs speculation". It is clear GW2 popularity is nowhere where it was not too long ago, but hey the game is still fine I guess, Paid Tournament will ensure they get some money in, the only thing I fear is that they will see less players buying that box.

Again, I'm probably wrong, no sweat. If I'm not though it will suck for the people who will have to pay for it (like the guys who are probably going to be laid off) as it could have been avoided. I won't be affected in either cases.

EDIT:

Some people enjoy it, some don't. Move on if you don't like it. It's as simple as that. Obviously a lot of people like it, hence why the servers are always full or high.

That little sentence has killed MANY a MMO, like SWTOR, because what happens when you say that to someone? They leave!

In a genre that needs numbers to reach a certain critical mass, this is a bad idea pushing people out of the door.

I won't disagree that the game is doing fine, however the problem ISN'T how much people are on but the variation of it. A broken PvE that can only be enjoyed by a few WILL reduce the increase of players and might even make it go negative if PvP isn't pulling its weight. That's the REAL problem, not if people don't like what you like.

[Valeron]

Just a bit offtopic but people actually watch twitch of people playing pve?

[ControlBlue]

In just GW2 or in like all games around?

[Valeron]

In just GW2 or in like all games around?

In every game. Why not just play the game? I think I'd rather paint my house than watch other people play pve in games.

[ControlBlue]

Yes they do.

And the reason is quite simple: to watch people who are really good at it. Kungen had a lot of people watching him play GW2 and ironically even though he was one of the best PvEr in WoW he touched GW2 PvE once and never came back to it, instead just doing PvP :/. And then he went back to WoW :/......

The fact that a game as accessible as LoL has plenty of viewers prove that even if people can play the game, they will be okay with just watching it instead.

[Valeron]

Well to each their own. I can't think of anything more boring personally but whatever.

[Fencers]

Just a bit offtopic but people actually watch twitch of people playing pve?

Yes, of course. Our guild's streams of Hammerknell in Rift and operations in SWTOR had a fair number of followers. ^.^

I don't know much about World of Warcraft streams though. Not my type of game.

Video game streams have become really popular.

[Valeron]

I guess I'm just getting too old, don't see the appeal.