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  1. #301
    Yah, the PvP is nice. (Though I don't like the stagnation that sets into most WvW battles pretty quickly.)

  2. #302
    Quote Originally Posted by Tommo View Post
    Well Im glad you took bugger all from my original post about PvE, as in the topic discussion. Im not going to bother looking up figures for a game I couldnt spend more than a day playing so take that how you will.
    Riiiight.

    As I correctly pointed out: a dubious and at best personal statement.

    It's totally fine if you disliked the game(s). But it's pretty silly to make claims as you did a page ago.

    And no, I heard about GW1 when nightfall was released, rather than when it was released which I should have if it was a triple A game like WoW / EQ ect
    GW1 isn't a triple AA MMO. They are a small developer. If it weren't for their publishing agreement with NCSoft they'd be borderline indie.

    maybe I got unlucky but I never once heard people mention it until my friend bought the game and convinced me to try it.
    GW1 always had coverage in gaming magazines and on sites. Every campaign was on the front cover of PC Gamer, iirc.

    The cumulative total of Guild Wars 1 titles is one of the best selling PC games of all time. Link.

    They still sell GW1 sets consistently too. Via their store and the deep discount 'battlechest' like packages. Similar to Diablo 2 and World of Warcraft. Also consistent sellers in PC gaming.

  3. #303
    Look Tommo, I don't have a problem with constructive criticism. My point isn't about that at all. My issue is all encompassing statements like yours in post 284


    was mocked constantly by the gaming world

  4. #304
    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Bob View Post
    Haha, you can't have meaningful boss fight mechanics without the trinity. It just doesn't work that way.

    GW2 is what it is: a faceroll game for super casuals who are bored with wow or don't play MMOs that often as to warrant paying a sub. Get on with it or quit, don't expect any known PVE guilds to change from wow to...lol...GW2 for pve.
    This guy is a troll, but the sad thing is that truth is not that far from him. GW2 PvE just doesn't feel nice. It seems like you're just zerging the boss. True enough, what I loved in WoW was being a healer, or a tank, that meant to me that my decisions actually mattered. Now? Now you just play with some other 4 guys, if you fail, huh, nevermind, just go back from the graveyard.

    WoW is like a big bisexual orgy where everyone does one thing well and if you combine all that everyone gets combined pleasure.

    GW2 feels like 5 guys masturbating in a small room, watching missionary position porn.

    Yeah...Lets not call others trolls, and the rest of the material in this post isn't really going to fly. Infracted. -Edge
    Last edited by Edge-; 2012-11-05 at 10:23 PM.

  5. #305
    The cumulative total of Guild Wars 1 titles is one of the best selling PC games of all time. Link.
    That list is weird. Why is GW the only game where they bundled the core game and all expansions together?

  6. #306
    Epic! barackopala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Riiiight.

    As I correctly pointed out: a dubious and at best personal statement.

    It's totally fine if you disliked the game(s). But it's pretty silly to make claims as you did a page ago.

    GW1 isn't a triple AA MMO. They are a small developer. If it weren't for their publishing agreement with NCSoft they'd be borderline indie.

    GW1 always had coverage in gaming magazines and on sites. Every campaign was on the front cover of PC Gamer, iirc.

    The cumulative total of Guild Wars 1 titles is one of the best selling PC games of all time. Link.

    They still sell GW1 sets consistently too. Via their store and the deep discount 'battlechest' like packages. Similar to Diablo 2 and World of Warcraft. Also consistent sellers in PC gaming.
    Holy shit 6million solds? interesting o:

  7. #307
    Quote Originally Posted by Doozerjun View Post
    OMG, someone likes something I don't! There must be something wrong with that person.
    Logic has no place on the internet!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  8. #308
    Ah I see you are still pissed off at the Halloween "scam" as you call it, I opened 50 chests combined, what I got nothing 0 nada still my care cup is totally empty. They are just cool items thats all no need to throw tantrums and crap about it.

    Yeah there some great ideas and good constructive criticism flowing around but there are also way too many kids around stomping their feet because they get to do soemthing/get something. Oh the amount of cries because of the puzzle, it took me 8 friggin hours if not more to do it and I still believe it was awesome.

  9. #309
    This is getting dangerously close to being closed. There's a lot of not so on-topic bickering that's neither productive or friendly. Start being friendly and posting on-topic again or I'm going to turn this car around.

  10. #310
    I am Murloc! Thelxi's Avatar
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    Not to mention, there is no carrot, and carrots are important.

  11. #311
    Mechagnome Kildragon's Avatar
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    After a few failed attempts at putting my thoughts into a clear argument, here goes.

    Currently there are two ways of having a hotkey MMO work. You can have the Holy Trinity system of WoW, SWTOR, etc. or you can have the "undefined roles" system of GW2. The Holy Trinity system works, and it works well, especially in PvE. The GW2 system works, and it works well, especially in PvP. Here's why:

    Encounters are 100% scripted events. No matter what you do, the encounter follows a very set path, that can be influenced by players to achieve victory, but it still falls into a defined set of rules. At X time, Y will happen and you can deal with it. If player N does this, the encounter will always react with Z. The Holy Trinity works very well for this because it is also follows a defined set of rules that compliments scripted events and AI. X happens, send player with Y spec to deal with it. There is a counter for things and those counters are well defined. Probably the most important set of rules is the expectation of having a tank and dedicated healers.

    This holy trinity system doesn't work for PvP though, which is why you never see any tanks in serious PvP. Dedicated healers work very well because triage and PvP are very easy to work with. The primary purpose of tanks though is to have aggro and take damage, something that while working well with scripted events tends to not work well with actual players. Without the artificial mechanic called aggro, no player in their right mind would take someone that does little damage AND takes little damage serious. They ignore them or CC them and that's the end of it. Luckily games like WoW don't have dedicated tank classes so people can still PvP as a DPS or healing spec.

    On to the GW2 system. In the GW2 system there are no defined roles and no ways of becoming a defined role, even for a limited amount of time. Encounters, as mentioned earlier, follow a script within a defined set of rules. Scripts and undefined roles tend to not mix so well, which is why boss fights in many single player games such as shooters or Skyrim tend to involve a lot of dodging obvious stuff coming at you while doing damage and kiting. Since there is no way to fill other roles the only way to increase difficulty is to increase damage taken or throw more shit at you making it harder to dodge. The third option is to make enemies behave more like real humans, which is the core of the issue. You can either increase damage taken and throw more shit at players, or make AI smart enough to essentially turn PvE into PvP just with computers. The only way to make GW2 PvE more engaging without just turning your monitor into a big clusterfuck of spell effects is to make the AI less scripted and give it the ability to react on its own terms.

    On the other hand, the GW2 system works extremely well with PvP, where dodging spells and reacting to enemy actions is the core of gameplay. Smart ability usage and positioning have always been more important in PvP than pure damage or pure healing output and that is essentially what GW2 was designed to do.

    I think the only way that ANet can make PvE more engaging without the clusterfuck of spells thrown your way, is to give players a way to temporarily become a role rather than giving you a way to perform as a poor excuse of a role most of the time. Temporary tanks and healers might be the way to go simply because you need some rules that the encounters can follow. This would mostly look like people rotating in the roles of healing, tanking and DPS based on CD's available and encounter needs, in a dynamic manner.

  12. #312
    Epic! barackopala's Avatar
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    The point made for kildragon is quite much how i feel, PvE is feeling lackluster with this kind of setup while PvP is on other level, way more ahead, it's not a bad thing, but it's a different path, I hope a-net takes advantage from this and develops an e-sport scene sorrounding it.

  13. #313
    Quote Originally Posted by Kildragon View Post
    snip
    I agree with you on most part. However there is a simple fix to GW2 PvE that the removal of the trinity broke. Display more "televised" effects and less in your face insane damage.

    Meaning a bosses auto attack isn't going to 2 shot you with full toughness. Sure it might hit for 1k but simple attacks isn't what dungeon players should be looking out for.

    Fights need more scripted events that will one shot you or get you down dangerously low or give you a handy cap. Handy caps you find in jumping puzzles for instance (chaos crystal cavern gives you debuffs to make you fall like making you grow too big or making you to fast while you jump).

    A perfect example of an encounter on the right path is the ghost boss in ascalonian catacombs exploreable mode. He does his super power up animation and then pulls everyone in, and then spins around and one shots anyway still in his way. You dodge before he finishes his cast or reflect it. His auto attack however hits too hard. This is implemented because of lack of mechanics. The fight could of been more interesting if he did less auto attack damage, but he did something else.
    A suggestion would be that he spawns adds that will root you, preventing you from dodging out of his whirlwind.

    This would of made the fight 5x more interesting, and more punishing then high auto attack damage however unlike auto attack damage you actually have a chance to do something against it and you wouldn't need a trinity system because the boss would attack whoever he felt like and that person would deal with his lower auto attack damage but still take a consistent hit.

    The problem with this fight is that the boss gets lost in the spell animations. Bigger bosses however are fine because you can see them, smaller ones however get unnecessary harder because of their size.
    Last edited by zito; 2012-11-05 at 11:56 PM.

  14. #314
    Quote Originally Posted by zito View Post

    Meaning a bosses auto attack isn't going to 2 shot you with full toughness. Sure it might hit for 1k but simple attacks isn't what dungeon players should be looking out for.

    Fights need more scripted events that will one shot you or get you down dangerously low or give you a handy cap.
    I totally agree with the less auto-damage, and I do so because I think what the PvE needs is to have the numbers and rpg back in.

    GW2 does a fantastic jobs taking care of the action side, where it is lacking is the rpg/number side, and for that problem to be solved they need to make the game care more about things like damage prevention, HPS, and DPS. Less one-shots deciding victory, graveyard-zerging killed, and mechanics like enrages, damage burst phase, ect...

    That will do a lot of great things to the game,make it more about maximizing boons uptime, force the gigantic health bars away, AND allow people to be more than dodging bots, people would have to specialize!
    And by that I am NOT asking for a trinity model with this specialization thing. It would just allow people to gear/traits their character to something they are good at, we could have people that can help groups stay longer up without using their heals through okay AoE heals, others that can better CC and damage mobs thanks to their build.

    Pretty much have the prevention of damage, the damage capabilities, and the sustainability of groups be a determining factor alongside action factors in the group victory in PvE!

    Even with a system like this, GW2 would still remain trinity-free, with no LF Heals, as everyone has heals.

    EDIT:

    GW2 has the potential to create the first PvE with a real "dont bring the class/role", unfortunately the supporters of the Trinity Model and WoW supporters uses the shortcomings of GW2 PvE as a proof that the Trinity is needed to create any meaningful PvE, and with their numbers they can definitely impose that idea to everyone else. Anet needs to do something against this idea fast before it gets cemented into the gamers mind (believe it or not, those kind of apprehension spread fast nowadays) and further tag GW2 as a bad PvE game.
    Last edited by ControlBlue; 2012-11-06 at 01:19 AM.

  15. #315
    Titan Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tommo View Post
    GW1 was a niche game dont try and deny that, only a handful of gamers enjoyed it due to how different it was. Bear in mind different doesnt always mean better.
    This numerical data would like to have a word with you:
    Guild Wars Prophecies, including expansion packs:
    Factions
    Nightfall
    Eye of the North
    6.5 million in North America, Europe, and Asia[12] N/A Guild Wars April 28, 20

    Source

  16. #316
    Quote Originally Posted by Raptoos View Post
    Excuse me, but playing GW2 is the same "1,2,4,5,3 -repeat" as wow. But in wow there are more skills, than just 5 and situational cooldowns.
    I disagree here. Playing, for example, healer in istance in the "trinity model" is the same "1,2...." just healing plain and simple. Just watch health bars while watching tv. Boring as hell. (same for tank or dps). You have to focus just on 1 aspect and thats all.

    In gw2 the "situational cds" and the right timing using abilities is the difference from "gy zerging istances" (quite popular in this thread) and finishing it without deaths at all. I enjoy much more this kind of approach than just heal/just dps/just tank.

    ps. having more abilities that do the same thing is not more funny in my opinion.

  17. #317
    Quote Originally Posted by Ethos776 View Post
    You are lucky. It is plenty of games out there where you can find that.

    I enjoy much more gw2 gameplay, where i dont get bored in doing all the time the same stuff. I enjoy the fact i can group with all classes without having to find "healer" or "tank" and i have to work with my group in order to succeed. No more "1,2,4,5,3 - repeat" but different approach in every group you play with.

    I like very much gw2 PvE, it is different. Maybe thats the real problem?
    I understand what you're saying but disagree entirely.

    GW2 Combat is the only thing the game 'lacks' for me. It is different, it is action oriented and it's by no means dull - but your "no more 1,2,4,5,3" is entirely incorrect.

    In fact, it has the problem worse than WoW does. In any PvE fight, you may as well just unload your skills. A rifle warrior for example, 4 is a shot that deals damage and causes vulnerability (Flat % damage modifier). 2 is a shot that deals damage and applys cripple. Your auto shot stacks bleed and deal damage, while 3 fires shots in succession with no modifier save for increased damage per shot. 5 pushes the target back.

    So optimum rotation? 4-2-3-1-1-1-1-5(when target gets near you if melee) - and then it's just a case of hitting whatever comes off CD first like a wotlk ret pally. Alternatively, switch weapon set when everything is off cd - for a similar experience, I used sword/axe, 1 auto bleed, 2 gap closer/damage combo finisher, 3 damage cripple, 4 damage boon fury, 5 combo finisher, multiple attacks increased damage (like the 3 of the rifle).

    It's not really different at all for it's button pushing. It is still very much based on your bar - as it should be.

    PvP and group play is slightly different, albeit - in group play you don't actually need to do anything different but it will benefit you if you did.

    Essentially, as a supporting role - typical of ele and guardian but also mesmer - and some classes have some other fields on particular weapons but they are rare, you want to be placing fields to enhance the others ability and which ones you choose depends on the fight and whats happening - certainly a choice and different from the typical model.

    While the other classes, that have less fields or just straight buffs (for example warrior banners, hunter pets, shouts etc), they want to utilise the fields as much as possible with combo finishers - leap, blast, etc.

    This is different, and it's how you win in PVP also, but it is flat and shallow. The idea essentially - past the objective of the map you play, is to stack conditions on them, boons on yourself and evade damage through dodging.



    However that's also the fun of it - you focus on the world, the story, and developing your character how you want. I like my dota2 pvp, and my sc2 for pvp, and competition, gw2 combat is shallow and unsatisfying, but to expect more from an MMO would be silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lugo Moll View Post
    Consider this philosophical question: If Blizz fails, but noone is there to see it. Will there still be QQ?

  18. #318
    Quote Originally Posted by Ethos776 View Post
    I disagree here. Playing, for example, healer in istance in the "trinity model" is the same "1,2...." just healing plain and simple. Just watch health bars while watching tv. Boring as hell. (same for tank or dps). You have to focus just on 1 aspect and thats all.

    In gw2 the "situational cds" and the right timing using abilities is the difference from "gy zerging istances" (quite popular in this thread) and finishing it without deaths at all. I enjoy much more this kind of approach than just heal/just dps/just tank.

    ps. having more abilities that do the same thing is not more funny in my opinion.
    So you are basically thinking that all the people who massively enjoy that "boring" PvE in WoW are just doing it wrong? What are the probabilities that you are right and all those millions of people who left WoW for multiple games but always came back to it (including GW2) are playing something they don't realize is boring? All I can say is that they have numbers on their side, you don't!

    The "abilities that do the same thing" in WoW actually do the same thing differently, triage in healing determine who is the most efficient healer, rotation with multiple "same" damaging abilities for DPS, and situational awareness and good usage of multiple "same" CD for tanks. That "boring" system does a better at determining skills level than the "one-shot/dodge" system of GW2 PvE.

    As much as people love to bash on the Trinity Model, it has proved that it can make interesting PvE encouters, as much as GW2 boasted that this model was bad, they have failed to create a meaningful PvE, so yeah right now its pretty much Trinity 1 - GW2 0.

    Also, a WoW character as a lot more "situational" abilities he can use to determine victory or defeat, both in PvE and in PvP. The ONLY thing where GW2 is better than WoW in that regard is the customization available with skills, other than that WoW has end down a better approach to their gameplay.

    Hopefully I hope there will be a comeback, GW2 will NOT thrive by being just a paid tournament game, they WILL need a proper PvE to detract all those people from WoW (which is unfortunately the only way to reliably get more player in your game).



    Also, there is one thing that is really worrying me. As Fencers said, the game combat is really, really boring to watch :/, too much special effect and too much chaos both in animations and effects, I fear that it might have an effect on the E-sport/competitive side of the game. It's even more difficult to tell what is in happening than in WoW PvP.

  19. #319
    Quote Originally Posted by ControlBlue View Post
    I wonder what is going to sustain the game, PvE obviously won't.
    That's awfully presumptuous of you. To date the PVE has done just perfectly for me. I have 31% map completion, haven't done any dungeons or leveled crafts to full and am having a whale of a time. I used to raid in wow so you can't use that as a reason for me being happy and other not. I am not a representation of everyone and neither are you.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-06 at 01:23 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    I think the game has enough quality to continue to be very popular, even if I dont like it, I realise that for every one of me there will be a lot more who do like what anet have done. I think this game has a big enough buzz about it and that will continue if they keep releasing content, even if that content is more filler quests and jumping puzzles than new dungeons/systems/bgs. Im sure we will see a development of the pve system at some point, for most people pve is still new and enjoyable, much like all mmo developers, anet will continue to add new systems in to the game to keep it fresh. No longer can developers sit on 6 months of no content updates....well unless you're playing my favourite game of choice ofc
    I think the biggest spin off of GW2 is that it will change the landscape. As you say, companies won't be able to release new content every 7+ months. People are going to expect some value for their money or a change in the payment model. That's a good thing, even for those people who don't like GW2 or are fans of other MMO's.

  20. #320
    Quote Originally Posted by ControlBlue View Post
    I totally agree with the less auto-damage, and I do so because I think what the PvE needs is to have the numbers and rpg back in.

    GW2 does a fantastic jobs taking care of the action side, where it is lacking is the rpg/number side, and for that problem to be solved they need to make the game care more about things like damage prevention, HPS, and DPS. Less one-shots deciding victory, graveyard-zerging killed, and mechanics like enrages, damage burst phase, ect...

    That will do a lot of great things to the game,make it more about maximizing boons uptime, force the gigantic health bars away, AND allow people to be more than dodging bots, people would have to specialize!
    And by that I am NOT asking for a trinity model with this specialization thing. It would just allow people to gear/traits their character to something they are good at, we could have people that can help groups stay longer up without using their heals through okay AoE heals, others that can better CC and damage mobs thanks to their build.

    Pretty much have the prevention of damage, the damage capabilities, and the sustainability of groups be a determining factor alongside action factors in the group victory in PvE!

    Even with a system like this, GW2 would still remain trinity-free, with no LF Heals, as everyone has heals.

    EDIT:

    GW2 has the potential to create the first PvE with a real "dont bring the class/role", unfortunately the supporters of the Trinity Model and WoW supporters uses the shortcomings of GW2 PvE as a proof that the Trinity is needed to create any meaningful PvE, and with their numbers they can definitely impose that idea to everyone else. Anet needs to do something against this idea fast before it gets cemented into the gamers mind (believe it or not, those kind of apprehension spread fast nowadays) and further tag GW2 as a bad PvE game.

    Rather than speccing into AoE heals like you say, they just need to make it so there is a more demonstrable effect on the combat from what already exists.

    The 5 abilities on the right hand side of the bar, could have abilities that really define PvE encounters for everyone, abilities that when used have a very noticeable effect on the encounter - rather than what they do now which is effect, but not in such a way that anyone notices and therefore learns to do.

    Like, if a Mesmer throws down a Chaos Storm, you barely have time to do something in it because you are too busy maximising DPS by rotation your 1-5 abilities and the storm lasts such a short amount of time. And even if you do combine with it, there isn't a great deal to get from it, the effect is so small there is no point saving cooldowns for it, so unless it comes up in conjunction with the cooldown its pointless.

    TL;DR, they need to make it so the profession combo's are more noticeable.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-06 at 01:34 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by ControlBlue View Post
    So you are basically thinking that all the people who massively enjoy that "boring" PvE in WoW are just doing it wrong? What are the probabilities that you are right and all those millions of people who left WoW for multiple games but always came back to it (including GW2) are playing something they don't realize is boring? All I can say is that they have numbers on their side, you don't!

    The "abilities that do the same thing" in WoW actually do the same thing differently, triage in healing determine who is the most efficient healer, rotation with multiple "same" damaging abilities for DPS, and situational awareness and good usage of multiple "same" CD for tanks. That "boring" system does a better at determining skills level than the "one-shot/dodge" system of GW2 PvE.

    As much as people love to bash on the Trinity Model, it has proved that it can make interesting PvE encouters, as much as GW2 boasted that this model was bad, they have failed to create a meaningful PvE, so yeah right now its pretty much Trinity 1 - GW2 0.

    Also, a WoW character as a lot more "situational" abilities he can use to determine victory or defeat, both in PvE and in PvP. The ONLY thing where GW2 is better than WoW in that regard is the customization available with skills, other than that WoW has end down a better approach to their gameplay.

    Hopefully I hope there will be a comeback, GW2 will NOT thrive by being just a paid tournament game, they WILL need a proper PvE to detract all those people from WoW (which is unfortunately the only way to reliably get more player in your game).



    Also, there is one thing that is really worrying me. As Fencers said, the game combat is really, really boring to watch :/, too much special effect and too much chaos both in animations and effects, I fear that it might have an effect on the E-sport/competitive side of the game. It's even more difficult to tell what is in happening than in WoW PvP.

    I played WoW for 6 years then quit last year, and picked up GW2 this year, to play a little. I haven't returned to WoW or any other game, despite recognising GW2's flaws.

    Please stop making it a WoW vs GW2, there are comparisons to be made but it isn't a popularity contest, they are different games for different people. Instead, we want to discuss what can be changed to GW2 PVE to make it more engaging, without losing that which makes it GW2, a trinity model is not required, and your preference to it notwithstanding is just going to get this thread closed.

    We are not looking to come back to WoW, none of us are looking to fill your regurgitated hypothesis, and frankly, nobody is interested in your tallying up some arbitrary score for your own amusement.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lugo Moll View Post
    Consider this philosophical question: If Blizz fails, but noone is there to see it. Will there still be QQ?

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