The Problem of GW2 PvE

[gainesvilleg]

This is due to their attempt at making the game more social ... and in fact making it less social. Sure you it's ALWAYS cooperative, but in the same turn it requires zero communication. People just show up, spam on the same mobs, maybe rez (maybe say thank you or you're welcome) and then disperse. Maybe not ANet's fault ... maybe it is.

I think the lack of community and overall lifelessness of GW2 has many causes, but I think you hit on a good point. Their supposed attempt at improving community by eliminating open world PVP and competition in general has made it a big "who cares about anybody else." For instance when there are competing factions, especially PVP, you have a natural cause for driving communities together. I HATED the horde in WoW and hence was closer to those in Alliance. I HATED the Guardians in Rift and hence was closer to those in the Defiants. I hated when I was beaten, especially "unfairly", and it naturally pushed me to team up to survive. I would also help others, go out of my way, simply because they were getting picked on or "ganked" by the faction I HATED. There was a common bond, annoyance at the other faction.

This competition was a big part of driving the community together. That is why human societies formed in the first place, for survival, but in GW2 it is so pointless so why bother. Forming social communities in GW2 serves no purpose. Anet's entire premise was faulty and if they looked at the history of the human race they should have known better.

[Durzlla]

Reminds me of a post on ArenaJunkies where a player - an adamant supporter of the game - was lamenting the lack of any real teamplay. You can't even target friendly players with much of anything. And it's not just "healing", you can't Leap of Faith a group member that's in a sticky spot, can't Blessing of Protection the mage that's getting beat down, Intervene a big attack for a group member, etc.

Actually I'll just quote him:



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You know, it's like I said in another post to you...sometimes the blind support of one game over another just shines through like crazy. I'm going to claim that WoW has amazing group-play either, but to suggest that GW2 somehow has this "connection" to your groups that other games don't is just flat out obvious game-favoritism. I can't think of any better way to put it.

I think the main thing behind it, well now that i've thought on it more, has to be because i'm not "locked into" one roll, because every game i play where i have "One Job" just bores me and i quickly go into the same mindset as when i played WoW, where as in GW2 there's no roles so instead of standing in the back and clicking spells to make sure the green bars don't disappear i actually do other stuff, like intercept shots, burst mobs, etc.

@Fencers Oh my bad, i meant to say POST lich king, in BC and Vanilla i was a hybrid in wow and thus was in the same role i am in GW2 (IE do what is needed atm) and found that much more enjoyable then "Make sure your meat shiel- er i mean allies don't die"

[Fencers]

@Fencers Oh my bad, i meant to say POST lich king, in BC and Vanilla i was a hybrid in wow and thus was in the same role i am in GW2 and found that much more enjoyable then "Make sure your meat shiel- er i mean allies don't die"

Well, even so if your post was directed at "post-Lich King" WoW [which I did play for a month or so in Cata due to free 30 days]- there still isn't much in the gameplay of GW2 that is anymore team orientated than World of Warcraft. It's actually less so than World of Warcraft and Guild Wars 1.

Your preference for playing a "jack-of-all-trades" is certainly valid as to why GW2 suits you personally more than Warcraft's singular roles. Very reasonable and I also greatly dislike the World of Warcraft class design. So, brofist.

[Durzlla]

Well, even so if your post was directed at "post-Lich King" WoW [which I did play for a month or so in Cata due to free 30 days]- there still isn't much in the gameplay of GW2 that is anymore team orientated than World of Warcraft. It's actually less so than World of Warcraft and Guild Wars 1.

Your preference for playing a "jack-of-all-trades" is certainly valid as to why GW2 suits you personally more than Warcraft's singular roles. Very reasonable and I also greatly dislike the World of Warcraft class design. So, brofist.

*brofists* i -do- miss my Archon from Rift Though.... god that was awesome lol.. that and Chloromancer

EDIT: Idk why i feel more attached to my group in GW2 than i did in WoW, then again i felt more attached to my pugs in Rift and GW1 more than i did in wow, only game i -didn't- feel that way was SWTOR... so yeah... confused i am..

[Bovinity Divinity]

Well, to be fair it's tough to claim "Jack of all trades" in GW2 either because there's really only one role to play. It's more of a "Jack of one trade and some change".

Of course, that's not to say that WoW's class design is exactly stellar, either. But as a healer all through Cata I did quite often have to do much more than just heal. Granted, not THAT often, but when I did it felt pretty meaningful. DPSing down a Son of Ragnaros while stunning another, being on Meteor-knockback duty, helping to DPS adds and doing 2-3 million damage to the boss in Phase 3 Sinestra, kiting out of control adds on Maloriak, stunning Valks on Lich King or CCing adds on Saurfang, or any number of other little things that you could do even if you were healing. One of my favorite things to do was to queue for dungeons as a healer but be Moonkin spec and keep the group up while still topping the DPS meter. =D

Of course, all that doesn't change the fact that WoW is designed to be a one-role game and it's not like you had options on EVERY encounter, but if you didn't want to just be a bored healbot there were a lot of things you could bring to a fight.

EDIT: Idk why i feel more attached to my group in GW2 than i did in WoW, then again i felt more attached to my pugs in Rift and GW1 more than i did in wow, only game i -didn't- feel that way was SWTOR... so yeah... confused i am..

Well, personal investment goes a long way toward making you feel positively toward experiences in defiance of how you'd feel about them in a vacuum.

When I'm enjoying a game and really into it it makes even the stupidest, most awful grinds feel worthwhile. Whereas if I'm just burnt out on something or otherwise feeling negatively toward it, the absolute best content in the world won't feel like any fun. In short, chances are you just enjoy GW2/GW1/Rift more than WoW, and all of them more than SWTOR. =D

[Fencers]

*brofists* i -do- miss my Archon from Rift Though.... god that was awesome lol.. that and Chloromancer

EDIT: Idk why i feel more attached to my group in GW2 than i did in WoW, then again i felt more attached to my pugs in Rift and GW1 more than i did in wow, only game i -didn't- feel that way was SWTOR... so yeah... confused i am..

They have melee mages that can shapeshift in Rift now. They are sorta the best tanks in the game and ungodly DPS. >.>

But now that you bring it up, I am not sure if GW2 is really all that "hybrid friendly" so to speak. It seemed to me that everyone was basically a DPS w/ some utility. And we all did the same job regardless.

To a degree, every class was remarkably similar too. Every one had a knockback, a rapid fire attack, an engage/disengage, etc. Playing a Rifle Warrior wasn't really all that special from a Longbow Ranger, for example.

I don't like class singularity but I also dislike homogeny in classes. Ideally, I want to build for whatever combination I desire. And have that be effective.

My favorite games are things like Radiant Arcana, Secret World, Guild Wars 1 and Path of Exile. Games where if I want to play a healer in plate mail that uses a bow and tanks from range, that is not only possible but can work.

I guess, I like having a role. But enjoy deciding the method of how I do that role freely w/o many restrictions. Or for example, Elder Scrolls. That system in TES is super appealing to me. I can use an axe in one hand, lightning in the other, conjure a minion, shapeshift, go invisible and do it in plate mail or a evening gown.

That's basically my ideal game; Elder Scrolls but with co-op.

In GW2 it was just like... "Well, guess I fire my bow and buff random people once every 2 minutes for 10 seconds." It's really uninteresting partly because there is no need for me to be there. No one really needs my Banner of Whateverthefuck to take down the veteran jotun or frost troll. Just totally inconsequential.

[Azuri]

*brofists* i -do- miss my Archon from Rift Though.... god that was awesome lol.. that and Chloromancer

You brought a tear to my eye, well not really. The diversity of characters is something I love. Having a cleric which is able to heal (single target, aoe, support) tank and DPS brings great joy to me. Sorry to derail but I like lots of choices in a game with out having to roll a thousand alts I rather just pimp out a main. Mages now have the ability to melee as well, battlemage ftw. Sorry don't beat me up for go off topic Fencers & company.

[Fencers]

Well, to be fair it's tough to claim "Jack of all trades" in GW2 either because there's really only one role to play. It's more of a "Jack of one trade and some change".

Dude, I just was thinking/trying to put in to words this exactly. As you can see in the long winded post above.

But yea, that's it basically. It's not really "jack-of-all-trades". Just DPS w/ options.

[Durzlla]

@Bovinity, that may actually be it, although my hatred for SWTOR really had a lot to do with its total lack of being playable on my computer... God that was awful...

@Fencers, I may just be building a lot differently than you guys but my ranger certainly doesn't play as dps + utility he plays more like a support/tank + dps (literally in that order) like in fractals I normally just spin to win in Melee range as my ranger applying boons via pet and spirits an healing spring and then control with my weapons with some minuscule damage sprinkled on top.

My Mesmer on the other hand... He's built exactly as you described except maybe an even split on boons and conditions (mains a staff), he really reminds me of my archon warlock dominator (not in that order) that I had, lots of group support and control but also lots of damage.

[Jibjub]

I feel like a happy median could have been reached. If weapon swaps made more of a difference besides ranged dps + utilities to melee dps + utilities. Wouldn't it be cool to change from DPS to a healer mid fight? Need a tank swap because a debuff? That elemtalist can switch to a earth, throw up some earth armor and stop DPSing to tank and the tank guardian can swap to healer and the healer can go DPS. There can still be Roles -- tank, support, heals, damage ... but these are tied to weapons (or better yet tied to nothing and just have "specs" that one can swap in and out of like weapons). Seems like team play could be really neat with some interesting encounters.

Right now I am just keeping an ear and an eye on Elder Scrolls online.

---------- Post added 2012-12-10 at 06:35 PM ----------

Oh ... I also never minded shouting "Healer LFG" in WoW before stupid dungeon finder - which I hate. I met A LOT of friends that way.

[Durzlla]

I feel like a happy median could have been reached. If weapon swaps made more of a difference besides ranged dps + utilities to melee dps + utilities. Wouldn't it be cool to change from DPS to a healer mid fight? Need a tank swap because a debuff? That elemtalist can switch to a earth, throw up some earth armor and stop DPSing to tank and the tank guardian can swap to healer and the healer can go DPS. There can still be Roles -- tank, support, heals, damage ... but these are tied to weapons (or better yet tied to nothing and just have "specs" that one can swap in and out of like weapons). Seems like team play could be really neat with some interesting encounters.

Right now I am just keeping an ear and an eye on Elder Scrolls online.

I'm not really sure how that'd work tbh, -could- be interesting, but if they did that then you'd likely still need to have a "tank" and "healer" which would butcher group finding speeds which is something i do not miss from any other game i've played PERIOD (other then SWG, but i played a medic that was also capable of killing the hell out of people because i had a pet lol).

As for Elder Scrolls online, it seems cool, but it seems like only mages will be able to do the cool stuff... so i'm going to wait and see before i even think of giving it a shot.

[Jibjub]

I'm not really sure how that'd work tbh, -could- be interesting, but if they did that then you'd likely still need to have a "tank" and "healer" which would butcher group finding speeds which is something i do not miss from any other game i've played PERIOD (other then SWG, but i played a medic that was also capable of killing the hell out of people because i had a pet lol).

As for Elder Scrolls online, it seems cool, but it seems like only mages will be able to do the cool stuff... so i'm going to wait and see before i even think of giving it a shot.

Ha yeah ... admittedly I am just free-style game designing up in this joint and not thinking anything through. I just know that I usually swap weapons to fight boredom more than anything else and I feel like I am contributing nothing whatsoever.

I will definitely go into ESO more reserved than I did GW2 ... I really put my heart out there and it got stomped on!

---------- Post added 2012-12-10 at 06:51 PM ----------

(I am having a blast in Skyrim though -- first ES game I've played. I will tell you that it is much more fun to sneak around things and one-shot snipe them like a badass assassin than it is to run away and kite and dodge lie a bitch for 43 seconds against even the lowliest of mobs)

[Fencers]

@Fencers, I may just be building a lot differently than you guys but my ranger certainly doesn't play as dps + utility he plays more like a support/tank + dps (literally in that order) like in fractals I normally just spin to win in Melee range as my ranger applying boons via pet and spirits an healing spring and then control with my weapons with some minuscule damage sprinkled on top.

Nah. I build my ranger defensive/boon-y too and it just felt inconsequential. I am sure you are just doing damage w/ minor support with your build too. It's just the way the game is setup w/r/t how gameplay functions.

It's something I mentioned off-hand in another thread; there isn't a lot of strategic depth. Not a lot of to consider at a higher level. You go in an encounter, you hit things, toss some buffs and meh. Everyone does it more or less the same. Yipee, we got a little more fire damage on a champion with 8 million health and the same mechanics since level 2.

I understand you are more partial to action/twitch based games than stat and calculation driven one. And I admit to begin to total opposite of that type of player.

For example, I just watched a 9 min youtube video on armor spreadsheet calculations. Was so excited about this I began reposting/emailing it to friends. Not that they care, mind you... okay this is a ramble.

Point I am driving at is that team work and build diversity matter so little in GW2's combat that it's totally not engaging for me. I don't really have to think about the game at all-- it's like all reactionary 8 year old ADD stuff.

Nintendo on a PC.

The Super Mario Bros. jumping "puzzles" aren't helping dispel that impression either.

[Bovinity Divinity]

I'm not really sure how that'd work tbh, -could- be interesting, but if they did that then you'd likely still need to have a "tank" and "healer" which would butcher group finding speeds which is something i do not miss from any other game i've played PERIOD

Well, it doesn't have to be any one class. It can still be spread across all the classes.

This actually goes back to something I mentioned in another thread. (Ok, a LOT of threads all the way back to beta) I still think the dodge mechanic is a mistake. I'd much rather have seen weapon sets that allow a player to simply take more hits. Block/parry/etc. Dodge could stay in the game purely as a movement ability (no immunity) for all those AE attacks that can't be blocked or parried.

Naturally, the weapon set would run out of cooldowns after a while, we don't want permanent tanks...and he wouldn't be able to hold aggro...but it would allow for more customization and (I think) more compelling play then just dodging every little thing regardless of the encounter.

[Fencers]

Wish there was active block as in Tera, Vindictus or Raiderz. I remember the first class videos for GW2 were like Elementalist and Warrior. In the video it looked super epic that the warrior was able to bock a fire attack. At the time I was like... "holy shit active block!!"

Then I played in the closed beta of GW2 used the warrior block for the first time. It was like... living with a lie for years.

I think Raiderz got active combat with tactical considerations and actual mob tactics for groups [& solo] a lot better than GW2.

Heck, I regard Vindictus as better than GW2 in combat feel. And that game is years old at this point.

[Doozerjun]

Well except the no jump thing in Vindictus but otherwise it has the best combat in an mmo/pseudo-mmo that I've played.

[Fencers]

I don't get the fascination with jumping. XD

Never seemed useful to me in most games. Aside from platformers of course. It wasn't like you could jump out of the path of a Shock in Swtor or leaping made a difference in Aion.

Just don't get it.

I hate in raid when everyone is rebuffing the motherf---ing DPS players get a case of the "hops". They are just jumping for no reason. Get out of here with that crap.

[Jibjub]

This will sound more conspiracy theory than is intended, but I think the combat in GW2 is designed to be fun right away for a first time player. I remember when I first played in a beta event and absolutely loved the combat. I was kiting and dodging and it was great. I got to level 11 or so and was all "IT'S AN MMO WHERE LEVELING IS ACTUALLY FUN" ... and then the game released and I got to lvl 40-ish and I didn't want to dodge ever again. Ever single mob did the exact same thing in every zone and for every event. Kite kite kite, dodge, repeat. It was exhausting. And I had 40 more levels to go. A stationary jungle worm could kill me in two hits but it took me over 20 seconds to kill it (sometimes way longer) ... which made me feel like a village idiot (which I get to feel plenty in real life).

I loved this game when I got it ... but 70+ levels of the exact same twitch combat with the exact same abilities just wore me out and broke me down. I've tried making alts but I just can't do it. I do not regret buying GW2, but I am disappointed. I really thought I'd love it but it don't fill that MMO void for me. Maybe I am just burnt out on MMOs.

---------- Post added 2012-12-10 at 09:24 PM ----------

I don't get the fascination with jumping. XD

Never seemed useful to me in most games. Aside from platformers of course. It wasn't like you could jump out of the path of a Shock in Swtor or leaping made a difference in Aion.

Just don't get it.

I hate in raid when everyone is rebuffing the motherf---ing DPS players get a case of the "hops". They are just jumping for no reason. Get out of here with that crap.

WoW Fact: Zoning into a dungeon without jumping results in a server crash.

[InfiniteRetro]

I don't get the fascination with jumping. XD

Never seemed useful to me in most games. Aside from platformers of course. It wasn't like you could jump out of the path of a Shock in Swtor or leaping made a difference in Aion.

Just don't get it.

I hate in raid when everyone is rebuffing the motherf---ing DPS players get a case of the "hops". They are just jumping for no reason. Get out of here with that crap.

one thing people complained of in gw1 was having no jump, and the invisible walls. personally im glad it didnt. i loved how 'grounded' i felt since in real combat you arent jumping around like an epileptic monkey on crack. unless your Ong Bak.

[kelevandros]

They have melee mages that can shapeshift in Rift now. They are sorta the best tanks in the game and ungodly DPS. >.>

But now that you bring it up, I am not sure if GW2 is really all that "hybrid friendly" so to speak. It seemed to me that everyone was basically a DPS w/ some utility. And we all did the same job regardless.

To a degree, every class was remarkably similar too. Every one had a knockback, a rapid fire attack, an engage/disengage, etc. Playing a Rifle Warrior wasn't really all that special from a Longbow Ranger, for example.

I don't like class singularity but I also dislike homogeny in classes. Ideally, I want to build for whatever combination I desire. And have that be effective.

My favorite games are things like Radiant Arcana, Secret World, Guild Wars 1 and Path of Exile. Games where if I want to play a healer in plate mail that uses a bow and tanks from range, that is not only possible but can work.

I guess, I like having a role. But enjoy deciding the method of how I do that role freely w/o many restrictions. Or for example, Elder Scrolls. That system in TES is super appealing to me. I can use an axe in one hand, lightning in the other, conjure a minion, shapeshift, go invisible and do it in plate mail or a evening gown.

That's basically my ideal game; Elder Scrolls but with co-op.

In GW2 it was just like... "Well, guess I fire my bow and buff random people once every 2 minutes for 10 seconds." It's really uninteresting partly because there is no need for me to be there. No one really needs my Banner of Whateverthefuck to take down the veteran jotun or frost troll. Just totally inconsequential.

Although super customization of a character to do exactly what you want him looks indeed pretty appealing, it doesn't work well (or at all) if you want to have a pvp aspect in the game. Balancing would be impossible (it's too hard even with a great degree of homogeneity anyway). I understand you're not interested in pvp, therefore I think that any game with a pvp side will most probably never cater to your customization needs.