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  1. #61
    Bloodsail Admiral Duito's Avatar
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    Nerf monks? Okay...Okay, Stop smoking and your nerf on Avatar...respec it, fucking Avatar adept to change
    Shall I be dramatic and say "You haven't heard the last of me,"?

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  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Sikend View Post
    Do you guys want warriors back to cata status? where we had almost 0 rep in high rated arenas? you can already kite us for DAYS after 5.1 goes live. why nerf our dmg and survivability also?
    When did they lost any mobility ? 2xCharge, Intervene, heroic leap + shockwave + hamstring, all on short cds, even thats more than enough.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-27 at 07:40 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Duito View Post
    Nerf monks? Okay...Okay, Stop smoking and your nerf on Avatar...respec it, fucking Avatar adept to change
    Then SPILL IT !

    Where did i exactly call for nerfs to the monk class !?`!?!?!?!?

    If not, just shut up and troll elsewhere

    Edit: Take your anger elsewhere!
    Last edited by Agnaea; 2012-10-27 at 06:41 PM.

  3. #63
    I will ignore Internet Tough Guy as Mulderfox explained what I would've said already, but anyway...

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnaea View Post
    I NEVER even ONCE talked about OP abilities or Classes or Speccs, so its just the next one who abuses my ideas for their own selfishness.

    IM A MIRROR MIRROR !!!

    Edit: To be precisely, im only talking about 3v3 arena, potentially above 2200
    That is the issue. You cannot pretend people to understand you without explaining yourself properly and wording things correctly. What do I know if you actually thought Monks were OP and needed nerfing? Or if Disc Priests were OP?

    This conversation is reaching a moot point anyway, we should go back on the topic we finally understood.

  4. #64
    Over 9000! apepi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agnaea View Post
    I know for a fact, that kiting is almost non-existent, for every class/spec. Rets/Ferals/Warrior/dks and to some extent Enhance shammans can indefinitely stick to their targets with little to no downsides (the only real problem is position, but thats hardly a problem with the current system of range abilities).

    To be precisely:

    Kiting IS possible, but only a couple of seconds, and the downsides of it, are HUGE, so huge that you would need to blow cds to stay on top against 2 melee's. Seconds later, you dont have the cds to counter/peel/dmg your enemy, which brings us to a HIDDEN
    tremendous PROBLEM of PvP. If you dont know it, dont ask. The next problem with kiting is following, it should be avoidable, have downsides to it but also great benefits! But the next problem is burst with giant cds up, with this modell you only need couple of seconds to blow someone up, its cheap, boring and unrewarding.

    How do i change my format ? :P (WOHO, so EASY to actually ASK some stranger >.<)
    1v1 in kiting is now very hard but it just takes practice(not sure about other classes though). 2v1 it is hard to kite as a caster but don't be expected to try to win those by yourself. But I know 2v2 it is fairly even against 2 melee and 2 casters.I personally think more defensive cds should be available. I would like as much defensive ones as I have offensive.

    Have your format like
    shadoworbs: look at my posts with theed
    I don't think the off healing is too strong, though I have not tried 3's yet. So maybe off heals to heals is too much? But I know it does not save me from hunters and warriors>.>, but maybe it would be too strong for the others?I think maybe increasing the mana for it but just in arena?
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  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Arlimist View Post
    Not my fault some of the paladins don't know how to properly play their class, stating the fact that the Rets are a little OP is my main point.
    They are far from OP, why is vanguards who is the highest rated ret and consistently rank 1 also saying ret's are "okay" That's with playing with other rank 1 players. Check the representation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arlimist View Post
    I would say they do, I've only seen them doing pretty amazing DPS and burst, granted they know what they're doing.
    Ret's burst is on a 3min cd and warriors/hunters/frost mages/destro locks have more burst. Ret's sustained dmg is absolutely the worst out of any spec.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sikend View Post
    Do you guys want warriors back to cata status? where we had almost 0 rep in high rated arenas? you can already kite us for DAYS after 5.1 goes live. why nerf our dmg and survivability also?
    Don't complain about representation when there were melee worse off than you and still are. Because it can always get worse.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Infighter View Post
    I will ignore Internet Tough Guy as Mulderfox explained what I would've said already, but anyway...



    That is the issue. You cannot pretend people to understand you without explaining yourself properly and wording things correctly. What do I know if you actually thought Monks were OP and needed nerfing? Or if Disc Priests were OP?

    This conversation is reaching a moot point anyway, we should go back on the topic we finally understood.
    For me, and actually for many others, its quiet obvious that monks and dpriest needs some help regarding arena 3v3 above 2200. Maybe it has some other reasons that im missunderstood, but im nice right now

    And also, ive made pretty clear what i mean, but i cant just simply roll the whole PvP System for some unexperienced player down. Were at the PvP forums? Cant i expect some expierence from someone? Should i act like your all some dipshits who know nothing about PvP? Yeah, right that would be better. Im sorry for actually NOT treating you like idiots. This get on my nerves. If you people actually dont want to participate OT, then its not my problem.

    Youth is no excuse for stupidity.

    P.S. What on the other hand my english skills have to do with balance, i still dont know.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-27 at 08:31 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by apepi View Post
    1v1 in kiting is now very hard but it just takes practice(not sure about other classes though). 2v1 it is hard to kite as a caster but don't be expected to try to win those by yourself. But I know 2v2 it is fairly even against 2 melee and 2 casters.I personally think more defensive cds should be available. I would like as much defensive ones as I have offensive.

    Have your format like


    I don't think the off healing is too strong, though I have not tried 3's yet. So maybe off heals to heals is too much? But I know it does not save me from hunters and warriors>.>, but maybe it would be too strong for the others?I think maybe increasing the mana for it but just in arena?
    The problems never comes alone (should be common sense) and i was exclusively talking about 3v3. So your either have 0 melee's, 1melee or 2melee. 1 is possible though (with the help of your mates), but you wont kite someone consistently and get benefits from it (and counter them later), let alone 2. You will most likely punished for playing defensively, your team gets way more benefits from it if you just tunnel dmg in someone (and swap occasionally ofc).

    I was getting at the meta game of arena and the problems with it, it happens that it is connected to defensively playstyle vs. offensively playstyles.

    Here we go again, off-heals arent to strong in itself, but in combination of an real healer or an second off-healer or some healing ability (second wind for example) and the amount of deff CDs, it becomes grossly imbalanced.

    Edit: And im not talking about some useless comp, like Affli/Ret/Dpriest. Im talking about some viable comps.
    Last edited by Agnaea; 2012-10-27 at 07:47 PM.

  7. #67
    can i be immune to fear, sap, incapacitates and movement impairing effects while under the effect of my damage cds?

    no?

    ok. then nerf avatar.

    the problem with warriors burst is that avatar/zerker rage interaction makes them incredibly hard to control during their burst. most other bursty classes are very controllable during cds.
    " I need a sec, my wrists hurt from spamming slam so hard. Playing cleave vs cleave is tough stuff guys"

  8. #68
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Going to go through your list with thoughts:

    psyfiend - nerf to 2 second cast works, health pool nerfed should mean a lot - what you need is to call for someone to punch it, the thing will only have 30k hp in 5.1, one punch from anyone will kill it

    generation of shadoworbs - they tried to make shadow orbs a relevant secondary resource, the problem is it's not - they should just remove them and give devouring plague a 30 second cooldown and psychic horror a 60 second cooldown (up from 35 seconds on live), but put the 3 second horror effect back on it (currently is a disarm that is only usable if you have orbs and eats your orbs to add 1 second of horror per orb, which is a dumb model any way you look at it).

    frostbomb - the problem with frostbomb is the ability to cause a delayed burst that syncs with a shatter combo and whatever your teammate can coordinate, nerfing the delay to 6 seconds actually makes it easier to coordinate not harder, but gives it a bit more of a telegraph to the enemy team - unfortunately trinketing a deep freeze to escape that shatter leaves you in a losing position vs a frost mage team who has so many other cc's to make you pay for using your trinket

    cold snap - just remove cold snap, preparation and readiness. All they do is make it so these classes blow all their cooldowns in the first minute of the fight, press coldsnap/preparation/readiness - and then begin a balanced fight - except they have already either killed you in their cooldowns, or gotten you to blow many of your own cooldowns - which you don't have coldsnap for - so now they win. It turns every fight into "what happens when a frost mage (or rogue, or hunter) fights X class, but the mage has all their cooldowns and X has no cooldowns"

    symbiosis - i actually don't see the problem with symbiosis that others do. I thought it was going to be horrendously overpowered in arenas, but the problem with trees isn't symbiosis, it's displacer beast and tree form and heart of the wild - it's not trees having ice block (which is their best symbiosis trade for arenas)

    disc priest - disc priests just need buffs in general, they're the shittiest healers in pve raids, they're probably the worst arena healer right now, rapture needs to be stronger, and disc probably needs something like a stronger renew

    generation of holy power for ret - attaching holy power generation to a ranged ability that is also in their melee rotation might be good, like moving it to judgment and off crusader strike, that way their HP generation doesn't drop when they are off target - beyond that I think HP is probably actually fine right now

    generation of FoF procs for mages - frost mages need nerfs, whether FoF needs a buff or not I refuse to talk about until we take frost off the unapproachable pedestal they have been on for the last like 10 years and talk about balance (and 5.1 just might do it, but I refuse to talk frost mage buffs until after we've seen whether 5.1 nerfs actually nerf frost mage effectiveness)

    second wind - second wind isn't the problem, I know everyone thinks it is - but shockwave and gag order and disrupting shout and charge stun and charge stun and throwdown and charge stun and shockwave and gag order - WHILE they are regenerating 3% of their health per second is the problem - because if they can indefinitely turn off my damage by shutting me down 100% of the time, then there is no way I can coordinate enough burst to try to get through their second wind. Keep second wind strong, warriors sucked last expansion because they were easier to burst at low health and second wind clearly fixes that - nerf the amount of control warriors have. Removing gag order is a start, but it's not enough - I recommend giving shockwave a longer cooldown for non-prot specs (45s cooldown IMO), and make charge stun a 1 second root (with no DR), not a 1 second stun - so it doesn't interrupt casting

    resto shamman mastery - don't know the problem here, resto shamans are fine imo - do they still have the bigger heals at low HP mastery? That wasn't a problem last expansion, IMO if anything resto shamans just need less passive survivability and a higher cost on earth shield so that swapping targets consistently ooms them, and so that they themselves are a good target to be on

    blood fear - 15% of health up from 10% imo should fix it, it doesn't really appear to hurt them right now, beyond that its fine (my lock doesn't even use it, castable fear is kind of important for CC)

    howling blast - dont know the problem here but have seen dks top random bgs with this as their top ability so I assume its maybe just hitting too hard? lower the AoE radius maybe, still hits hard - but hard to spread to whole nodes of people at a time?

    obliterate - the problem is the massive weapon scaling % (like 420%?) on an attack with no cooldown that can be spammed like 8 times in a row, while pillar of frost is making them 20% bigger, while killing machine is giving them guarenteed criticals, while skull banner is making their crits 20% bigger

    monks (as a whole?) - I'm not sure if you mean nerfs or buffs here. Mistweavers are amazingly good healers (highest HPS healers in the game with near unlimited mana), druid-like mobility with rolls / teleports, they have near-spammable CC with paralysis, and a short cooldown aoe stun - so I don't think your saying mistweavers are underpowered - if anything they are overpowered. Similarly windwalkers are equally strong, very high burst, great, survivability, great mobility, and more self-healing than rets or shadowpriests. Everyone saw the % of monks in top comps and assumed monks weren't represented because they were bad, but that's not the case at all - in the first season that dks came out - the season where 200 of the top 200 2's teams in the world were unholy dk / holy paladin - was the most overpowered dk season ever, but dks as a whole were only like 2% of the max level playerbase: it's just that all of the people who mainswapped to dk became gladiators that season. The same thing is happening with monks right now but they aren't as overpowered as dks were in s5. Monks are only a tiny percent of peoples level 90 mains right now, of the ones that are, only a small percent pvp, and only a smaller percent are good at pvp and know what they are doing with a monk in pvp - and those ones are doing extremely well (and are possibly even overpowered right now).

    life swap for spriest - void shift is fantastic, it's a 6 minute cooldown though so you are only likely to see it once per match - and it makes the spriest have only 25% hp, which should give you the swap - as people learn to expect void shift they will be ready for that swap as soon as it happens (so, against good opponents you would start on the healer for example until they blow defensives, swap to the priest until they disperse, swap back to the healer once they are low expect void shift, swap to the spriest who has no dispersion - collect points).

    displacer beast - needs at least a 60 second cooldown, then it would be fine (possibly 90 second)

    shock wave - as mentioned above, needs like a 45 second cooldown at least for non-prot specs (if in conjunction with the above mentioned changes, otherwise needs like a 60 or 75 second cooldown)

    warrior fear - 60s warrior fear is fine, they need less charge stuns / kicks / disrupting shouts / heroic throw silences - their fear is an intelligent move that should be encouraged - being able to lock out a caster indefinitely by cycling kicks/stuns/silences is dumb

    application of affli dots - soul burn soul swap is going to help affliction with dot application a lot - their bigger problem at the moment is actually that people can shut their damage down by not letting them channel malefic grasp (affliction rotation is shadow pre 5.0, they are now the best targets to sit on and kick everything), what affliction might need is slightly higher passive damage reduction so they don't get burst as hard as they do (soooo squishy without 25% soul link now)

    kiting for kite classes - not sure what the problem here is for most classes I think the balance is fine (more on when it isnt later though)

    Deaths advance - if we were going to leave frost's burst alone as it is, it might be acceptable to nerf DA such that no snare could bring them below 50%, and during their active no snare could bring them below 100% (but possibly buff duration to 8 or even 10 seconds in that case) - but I think either they need less burst, or less uptime - but not both, and not a huge nerf in either case - I'd probably keep DA as is and nerf their burst given the choice, too much synergy and percent scaling (explained above under obliterate)

    blinding light - probably mostly fine, would be nice if it had a short cast time or something though (like 0.5 seconds or 1 second) so we had some time to react

    instants for holy paladins - ya probably needs a slight nerf, but not a huge one

    stance dance for warriors - whats wrong here? warrior stance dancing now is less annoying now than ever before, blizzard is never going to get rid of it - unless you want more stance dancing?

    weapon switches - not a problem i'm aware of, probably should be happening more if anything

    shs for rogues - shadowstep should be made baseline for rogues, something new should take its place in the talent tree

    bear stun in all druid forms - it's a talent, and I think it's fine, the problem is tree form being unkillable no matter how many dps you bring and how much dispelling and stunning of them you do during it, and that displacer beast is such a short cooldown - nerf displacer beasts cooldown, possibly nerf tree form survivability, leave ursoc's might (stun talent) alone

    hybrid healing - I've been thinking about how best to nerf hybrid healing for awhile, and I think the way you do it is you make it so pvp power only scales for the emphasis of your spec, if you are a heal spec then pvp power increases your healing, if you are a dps spec then pvp power increases your dps, if you are a tank spec then pvp power laughs heartily in your face (I was going to say it should increase their survivability, but thats not necessary). So what this would do is that shadowpriests (my main for example), has 35% pvp power and would do 35% more pvp damage as a result - but would not Also do 35% more pvp healing. My disc priest would do 35% more pvp healing, but not Also do 35% more pvp damage. The ret paladin in my guild would do 35% more pvp damage, but not 35% more pvp healing. Hybrid healing would still be effective in this case, but it wouldn't scale with both dps stats (spellpower, crit, haste but usually not mastery) And pvp power for hybrids - which I think is the problem right now. Having fixed that though, some hybrid specs may need slight buffs.

    Spectral Guise - I just threw this on here, I think it should have a longer cooldown (ie. 60 seconds) but should do what people who read the talent think it does, makes us not take the next 3 attacks of damage (currently we do, even though your punching my ghostly image that-is-not-me) and allows me to move invisble until the ghost dies (currently just puts us in stealth on the same spot, so any passive aoe going on like death and decay or howling blast instantly knocks us out) or any DoT on the spriest instantly knocks the spriest out of stealth even though it should be absorbed by the Spectral Guise not just a DoT effect on a stealthed player. I think buffing the ability but nerfing the cooldown and nerfing pvp power would work out to be a much more gratifying game for everyone involved.
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  9. #69
    Interesting analysis, ill have to run more tests but it seems well so far most of the stuff you said are accurate but im not sure about warrior fear.

  10. #70
    SkillOverKill some of your suggestions are good but some are just minor and wouldn't change much.

    I agree that warrior control is to much and that they have to lose some control and mobility together with warriors. Problem with these 2 classes is that Blizzard has added each expansion more and more abilities they can use to control a target or move to/away from a target, this wouldn't have been a problem if other classes got the same to counter them but that isn't the case.

    PVP will never be truly balanced or enjoyable for everybody that isn't one of these 2 classes unless they are brought down to other classes level. Their will always be a risk that these 2 classes will become OP (which they often end up becoming) at some point of time because they will always have their control/mobility abilities even if by some chance their damage is low. However the moment their damage is equal to others the true problem starts and these 2 classes have the clear advantage.

    I also think that fixing these 2 classes mobility and control abilities will be enough buff for certain other classes. I may be wrong but I believe that for the most part that the source of melee frustration towards casters comes from fighting mages. Before buffing melee mobility it is better to just reduce mage mobility/control and see how that works out.

    To the OP:

    Avatar is to strong and Blizzard has rightly removed the unstoppable part. It is stupid that their is no counter towards cooldowns that provide increase in damage but also a unstoppable defensive benefit. You already increase your pressure because it is a dps cooldown but then their is the part where you can't be stopped for 20 secs. Even if you couldn't stack dps cooldowns it is just to much. Also for the sake of balance it is better to remove/adjust/sepperate defensive cooldowns that can be used in a offensive way.

  11. #71
    Brewmaster Orangetai420's Avatar
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    Disc priests? really?

    EDIT: I assume you mean broken as in, unplayable because they're terrible atm
    Blue text indicates sarcasm

  12. #72
    Warchief tommypilgrim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agnaea View Post
    Soooo, you say its ok to get stunned by a passing druid in an 3v3 situation? I mean, he dont even need to think about it !
    Er, yes? Most classes have stuns, only now druids can stun without being in bear form. I'm failing to see why that's a problem, unless you want all stuns removed?
    Did you like the above post? How about sending me a dollar? I'd have adverts here but apparently that'd break ToS.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Validity View Post
    At the risk of infraction, I can conclude here the following:

    The OP plays a warrior and is clearly quite mad bro.
    Even mentioning you might get an infraction will get you an infraction. Shit just got real bro.

  14. #74
    Herald of the Titans naturetauren's Avatar
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    I think we all (well not all but some including me) missed the OP saying "change".

    Its the human nature. Whenever we see "nerf" we totally ignore everything else due to nerdrage and smash the keyboard with our head, atleast me.
    Dear god forgive me for preordering WOD. That is the most retarded thing ive ever done in my 24 years of life.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by SkillOverKill View Post
    psyfiend - nerf to 2 second cast works, health pool nerfed should mean a lot - what you need is to call for someone to punch it, the thing will only have 30k hp in 5.1, one punch from anyone will kill it
    Thats true, but the initially fear will go through, and thats almost instant, range, for no cost and thats a problem i think, dont get me wrong, w/o spriest are in a big disadvantage, but something needs to be done about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by SkillOverKill View Post
    generation of shadoworbs - they tried to make shadow orbs a relevant secondary resource, the problem is it's not - they should just remove them and give devouring plague a 30 second cooldown and psychic horror a 60 second cooldown (up from 35 seconds on live), but put the 3 second horror effect back on it (currently is a disarm that is only usable if you have orbs and eats your orbs to add 1 second of horror per orb, which is a dumb model any way you look at it).
    The problem doesnt come from its use (well, partly though), but merely from its generation, right now its lackluster, i explained that in an other post.

    Quote Originally Posted by SkillOverKill View Post
    frostbomb - the problem with frostbomb is the ability to cause a delayed burst that syncs with a shatter combo and whatever your teammate can coordinate, nerfing the delay to 6 seconds actually makes it easier to coordinate not harder, but gives it a bit more of a telegraph to the enemy team - unfortunately trinketing a deep freeze to escape that shatter leaves you in a losing position vs a frost mage team who has so many other cc's to make you pay for using your trinket
    Yep, frostbomb is both, to weak and to strong, but its simply more complicated than that, you cant nerf it.

    Quote Originally Posted by SkillOverKill View Post
    cold snap - just remove cold snap, preparation and readiness. All they do is make it so these classes blow all their cooldowns in the first minute of the fight, press coldsnap/preparation/readiness - and then begin a balanced fight - except they have already either killed you in their cooldowns, or gotten you to blow many of your own cooldowns - which you don't have coldsnap for - so now they win. It turns every fight into "what happens when a frost mage (or rogue, or hunter) fights X class, but the mage has all their cooldowns and X has no cooldowns"
    Yep, again, coldsnap is to strong and to weak. If we would discard it, mages would be trained in the ground. Right now, coldsnap is only a deffensive cooldown, it doesnt reset IV or DF, not even CoC, and i think thats the problem. With the state of kiting in the game, something needs to be done. Simple, bring back CoC for coldsnap.


    Quote Originally Posted by SkillOverKill View Post
    symbiosis - i actually don't see the problem with symbiosis that others do. I thought it was going to be horrendously overpowered in arenas, but the problem with trees isn't symbiosis, it's displacer beast and tree form and heart of the wild - it's not trees having ice block (which is their best symbiosis trade for arenas)
    But it wouldnt be hurt to give druids something instead of Iceblock, a druid rolling full hots in block surely is pretty good, and as mentioned in conjunction with the other cds, its just to many of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by SkillOverKill View Post
    disc priest - disc priests just need buffs in general, they're the shittiest healers in pve raids, they're probably the worst arena healer right now, rapture needs to be stronger, and disc probably needs something like a stronger renew
    Agree, but also the glyph system needs revamp, its fucked !

    Quote Originally Posted by SkillOverKill View Post
    generation of holy power for ret - attaching holy power generation to a ranged ability that is also in their melee rotation might be good, like moving it to judgment and off crusader strike, that way their HP generation doesn't drop when they are off target - beyond that I think HP is probably actually fine right now
    Holy Cow, NO! Then you get even less from kiting them, it should be the opposite. They generate HP on a static basis, in an manually way, 1click = 1HP. Right now you can sit at 5 HP, where in the next situation you are at 2, that RNG seriously has to go.

    Quote Originally Posted by SkillOverKill View Post
    generation of FoF procs for mages - frost mages need nerfs, whether FoF needs a buff or not I refuse to talk about until we take frost off the unapproachable pedestal they have been on for the last like 10 years and talk about balance (and 5.1 just might do it, but I refuse to talk frost mage buffs until after we've seen whether 5.1 nerfs actually nerf frost mage effectiveness)
    Yeah, and i dont talk about the biased comment of someone else about mages. Where the FUCK does come this hatred from?!?!? If you people hate a class, then at least go for the real one - Warlocks. OT - The dmg system needs HEAVY revamp!

    Quote Originally Posted by SkillOverKill View Post
    second wind - second wind isn't the problem, I know everyone thinks it is - but shockwave and gag order and disrupting shout and charge stun and charge stun and throwdown and charge stun and shockwave and gag order - WHILE they are regenerating 3% of their health per second is the problem - because if they can indefinitely turn off my damage by shutting me down 100% of the time, then there is no way I can coordinate enough burst to try to get through their second wind. Keep second wind strong, warriors sucked last expansion because they were easier to burst at low health and second wind clearly fixes that - nerf the amount of control warriors have. Removing gag order is a start, but it's not enough - I recommend giving shockwave a longer cooldown for non-prot specs (45s cooldown IMO), and make charge stun a 1 second root (with no DR), not a 1 second stun - so it doesn't interrupt casting
    The problem i see with SW is that you dont even need to look at. I would propose it should need 1h/shield/deff stance and a click, than i would stop.

    Quote Originally Posted by SkillOverKill View Post
    resto shamman mastery - don't know the problem here, resto shamans are fine imo - do they still have the bigger heals at low HP mastery? That wasn't a problem last expansion, IMO if anything resto shamans just need less passive survivability and a higher cost on earth shield so that swapping targets consistently ooms them, and so that they themselves are a good target to be on
    I could be off on this one though, but actually it was the problem last season (110k GHW crits ?). But dunno, dont have enough insight right now, but their very strong, close to the top.

    Quote Originally Posted by SkillOverKill View Post
    blood fear - 15% of health up from 10% imo should fix it, it doesn't really appear to hurt them right now, beyond that its fine (my lock doesn't even use it, castable fear is kind of important for CC)
    Thats right, i complained more about the nature of the ability, it punishes "good" play and encourages "bad" play, in some sense just like second wind. This the reason it is fucked up. With this ability, every lock will get his fear off, wheres the challange ? Same problem with psyfiend.

    Quote Originally Posted by SkillOverKill View Post
    howling blast - dont know the problem here but have seen dks top random bgs with this as their top ability so I assume its maybe just hitting too hard? lower the AoE radius maybe, still hits hard - but hard to spread to whole nodes of people at a time?
    I mentioned the problems in an other post in this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by SkillOverKill View Post
    obliterate - the problem is the massive weapon scaling % (like 420%?) on an attack with no cooldown that can be spammed like 8 times in a row, while pillar of frost is making them 20% bigger, while killing machine is giving them guarenteed criticals, while skull banner is making their crits 20% bigger
    Yep, it just hits like a truck, with little to no thought behind it.

    Quote Originally Posted by SkillOverKill View Post
    monks (as a whole?) - I'm not sure if you mean nerfs or buffs here. Mistweavers are amazingly good healers (highest HPS healers in the game with near unlimited mana), druid-like mobility with rolls / teleports, they have near-spammable CC with paralysis, and a short cooldown aoe stun - so I don't think your saying mistweavers are underpowered - if anything they are overpowered. Similarly windwalkers are equally strong, very high burst, great, survivability, great mobility, and more self-healing than rets or shadowpriests. Everyone saw the % of monks in top comps and assumed monks weren't represented because they were bad, but that's not the case at all - in the first season that dks came out - the season where 200 of the top 200 2's teams in the world were unholy dk / holy paladin - was the most overpowered dk season ever, but dks as a whole were only like 2% of the max level playerbase: it's just that all of the people who mainswapped to dk became gladiators that season. The same thing is happening with monks right now but they aren't as overpowered as dks were in s5. Monks are only a tiny percent of peoples level 90 mains right now, of the ones that are, only a small percent pvp, and only a smaller percent are good at pvp and know what they are doing with a monk in pvp - and those ones are doing extremely well (and are possibly even overpowered right now).
    IDK about this one.

    Quote Originally Posted by SkillOverKill View Post
    life swap for spriest - void shift is fantastic, it's a 6 minute cooldown though so you are only likely to see it once per match - and it makes the spriest have only 25% hp, which should give you the swap - as people learn to expect void shift they will be ready for that swap as soon as it happens (so, against good opponents you would start on the healer for example until they blow defensives, swap to the priest until they disperse, swap back to the healer once they are low expect void shift, swap to the spriest who has no dispersion - collect points).
    Again, its not the ability in itself, but in conjunction with other "life savers", i think its to much (stands for alot of classes though).

    Quote Originally Posted by SkillOverKill View Post
    displacer beast - needs at least a 60 second cooldown, then it would be fine (possibly 90 second)
    Agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by SkillOverKill View Post
    shock wave - as mentioned above, needs like a 45 second cooldown at least for non-prot specs (if in conjunction with the above mentioned changes, otherwise needs like a 60 or 75 second cooldown)
    Agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by SkillOverKill View Post
    warrior fear - 60s warrior fear is fine, they need less charge stuns / kicks / disrupting shouts / heroic throw silences - their fear is an intelligent move that should be encouraged - being able to lock out a caster indefinitely by cycling kicks/stuns/silences is dumb
    Agree on the other parts, but i do think that 60s i just to short, if we would go back to 2min, i bet no warrior would even feel the nerf. Is there a particular reason for have this ?

    Quote Originally Posted by SkillOverKill View Post
    application of affli dots - soul burn soul swap is going to help affliction with dot application a lot - their bigger problem at the moment is actually that people can shut their damage down by not letting them channel malefic grasp (affliction rotation is shadow pre 5.0, they are now the best targets to sit on and kick everything), what affliction might need is slightly higher passive damage reduction so they don't get burst as hard as they do (soooo squishy without 25% soul link now)
    Many things are wrong with affli, but soul burn: soul swap has to go, with 4 globals able to debuff an whole team is simply to cheap.

    Quote Originally Posted by SkillOverKill View Post
    kiting for kite classes - not sure what the problem here is for most classes I think the balance is fine (more on when it isnt later though)
    Wrong! Its total fucked! I mentioned these before, kiting means so little, the benefits is almost irrelevant! At most, you can potentially kite someone for ~5s, but thats it, and you have to blow CDs to stay in range, nobody can kite against competent melee's.

    Quote Originally Posted by SkillOverKill View Post
    Deaths advance - if we were going to leave frost's burst alone as it is, it might be acceptable to nerf DA such that no snare could bring them below 50%, and during their active no snare could bring them below 100% (but possibly buff duration to 8 or even 10 seconds in that case) - but I think either they need less burst, or less uptime - but not both, and not a huge nerf in either case - I'd probably keep DA as is and nerf their burst given the choice, too much synergy and percent scaling (explained above under obliterate)
    Agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by SkillOverKill View Post
    blinding light - probably mostly fine, would be nice if it had a short cast time or something though (like 0.5 seconds or 1 second) so we had some time to react
    Its just more instant cc (on short range though), if the game something, its less instant cc w/o costs

    Quote Originally Posted by SkillOverKill View Post
    instants for holy paladins - ya probably needs a slight nerf, but not a huge one
    Its simple, they just need to cast stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by SkillOverKill View Post
    stance dance for warriors - whats wrong here? warrior stance dancing now is less annoying now than ever before, blizzard is never going to get rid of it - unless you want more stance dancing?
    Ofc more of it, right now, its irrelevant, again, its cheap.

    Quote Originally Posted by SkillOverKill View Post
    weapon switches - not a problem i'm aware of, probably should be happening more if anything
    Yep, every class with a shield should have their deff CDs coupled with it and get more benefits from taking a 2h after the CDs.

    Quote Originally Posted by SkillOverKill View Post
    shs for rogues - shadowstep should be made baseline for rogues, something new should take its place in the talent tree
    Agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by SkillOverKill View Post
    bear stun in all druid forms - it's a talent, and I think it's fine, the problem is tree form being unkillable no matter how many dps you bring and how much dispelling and stunning of them you do during it, and that displacer beast is such a short cooldown - nerf displacer beasts cooldown, possibly nerf tree form survivability, leave ursoc's might (stun talent) alone
    Strange that noone sees a problem with it, doesnt it feel cheap that the druid doesnt even have to think about it ? It should require WAAAY more thought and thats only a change neither a buff or a nerf.

    Quote Originally Posted by SkillOverKill View Post
    hybrid healing - I've been thinking about how best to nerf hybrid healing for awhile, and I think the way you do it is you make it so pvp power only scales for the emphasis of your spec, if you are a heal spec then pvp power increases your healing, if you are a dps spec then pvp power increases your dps, if you are a tank spec then pvp power laughs heartily in your face (I was going to say it should increase their survivability, but thats not necessary). So what this would do is that shadowpriests (my main for example), has 35% pvp power and would do 35% more pvp damage as a result - but would not Also do 35% more pvp healing. My disc priest would do 35% more pvp healing, but not Also do 35% more pvp damage. The ret paladin in my guild would do 35% more pvp damage, but not 35% more pvp healing. Hybrid healing would still be effective in this case, but it wouldn't scale with both dps stats (spellpower, crit, haste but usually not mastery) And pvp power for hybrids - which I think is the problem right now. Having fixed that though, some hybrid specs may need slight buffs.
    That might be the answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by SkillOverKill View Post
    Spectral Guise - I just threw this on here, I think it should have a longer cooldown (ie. 60 seconds) but should do what people who read the talent think it does, makes us not take the next 3 attacks of damage (currently we do, even though your punching my ghostly image that-is-not-me) and allows me to move invisble until the ghost dies (currently just puts us in stealth on the same spot, so any passive aoe going on like death and decay or howling blast instantly knocks us out) or any DoT on the spriest instantly knocks the spriest out of stealth even though it should be absorbed by the Spectral Guise not just a DoT effect on a stealthed player. I think buffing the ability but nerfing the cooldown and nerfing pvp power would work out to be a much more gratifying game for everyone involved.
    IDK about this one


    regards

    Edit: This game needs more thought and new ramifications, that would solve the most problems right now. Abilities become to strong also through bad design. The game feels to cheap. Players should work for their play, instead the class plays for you (or the talents). And on top of it, the RNG factor of important systems have to go. They should be made linear, so that you can anticipate them (i.e. Holy Power, FoF, Shadoworbs, Feral debuff, forgot name, and so on).

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-28 at 11:01 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangetai420 View Post
    Disc priests? really?

    EDIT: I assume you mean broken as in, unplayable because they're terrible atm
    What else could i mean ? Oo

    Do you think im stupid ?

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-28 at 11:07 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by ati87 View Post
    SkillOverKill some of your suggestions are good but some are just minor and wouldn't change much.

    I agree that warrior control is to much and that they have to lose some control and mobility together with warriors. Problem with these 2 classes is that Blizzard has added each expansion more and more abilities they can use to control a target or move to/away from a target, this wouldn't have been a problem if other classes got the same to counter them but that isn't the case.

    PVP will never be truly balanced or enjoyable for everybody that isn't one of these 2 classes unless they are brought down to other classes level. Their will always be a risk that these 2 classes will become OP (which they often end up becoming) at some point of time because they will always have their control/mobility abilities even if by some chance their damage is low. However the moment their damage is equal to others the true problem starts and these 2 classes have the clear advantage.

    I also think that fixing these 2 classes mobility and control abilities will be enough buff for certain other classes. I may be wrong but I believe that for the most part that the source of melee frustration towards casters comes from fighting mages. Before buffing melee mobility it is better to just reduce mage mobility/control and see how that works out.

    To the OP:

    Avatar is to strong and Blizzard has rightly removed the unstoppable part. It is stupid that their is no counter towards cooldowns that provide increase in damage but also a unstoppable defensive benefit. You already increase your pressure because it is a dps cooldown but then their is the part where you can't be stopped for 20 secs. Even if you couldn't stack dps cooldowns it is just to much. Also for the sake of balance it is better to remove/adjust/sepperate defensive cooldowns that can be used in a offensive way.
    Here we go again, the kite system is totally fucked. It is either to absolute and on the other hand impossible. And that stands for every class (melees used to kite aswell...). If you would nerf Mage control/kiting they would vanish from arena.
    Last edited by Agnaea; 2012-10-28 at 10:23 AM.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by SkillOverKill View Post
    obliterate - the problem is the massive weapon scaling % (like 420%?) on an attack with no cooldown that can be spammed like 8 times in a row, while pillar of frost is making them 20% bigger, while killing machine is giving them guarenteed criticals, while skull banner is making their crits 20% bigger
    230% weapon scaling
    spammed 8 times in a row is false, look into the rune system please, while in combat 2 in a row is max
    Killing machine procs aren't all that common and sometimes are used on frost strike due to lack of runes

  17. #77
    That rage , Avatar whas to strong simple

  18. #78
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by byouki View Post
    230% weapon scaling
    spammed 8 times in a row is false, look into the rune system please, while in combat 2 in a row is max
    Killing machine procs aren't all that common and sometimes are used on frost strike due to lack of runes
    Sigh. I have a level 90 DK, do you? Because you can definitely spam Obliterate a lot in rapid succession. Here let me explain what your missing:

    First of all, Obliterate deals 230% weapon damage ONLY if your dual wielding, in which case it hits with both of your weapons for 230% weapon damage each - but thats not all - it hits for 12.5% more damage per disease of yours active on the target - 2 diseases = 25% more damage = 288% weapon damage (times 2 weapons). If you are using a 2 hander (like you should for pvp), Obliterate deals 354% of weapon plus 12.5% more Total damage per active disease - 2 diseases, 25% more damage = 443% weapon damage (so 420% is actually an underestimate). Obliterate costs 1 unholy rune and 1 frost rune per cast, with full runes you have 2 unholy, 2 frost, 2 blood - so you can cast 2 Obliterates before all your unholy and frost runes are on cooldown: yes very good, now on to the rest of the spec ;p

    Blood of the North - is a passive effect that all frost dks have that permanently transforms their blood runes into death runes which function as any other rune, this means that pressing Obliterate 3 times in a row from a full rune bar will actually cast 3 Obliterates in a row. the first 2 will consume one unholy and one frost rune each, the third press will consume your "blood" runes which are actually death runes to cast a third Obliterate. This means, that with a full rune bar a frost dk actually casts 3 Obliterates, not 2 - but let's continue.

    Blood Tap - each frost strike generates 2 blood charges up to 12, pressing blood tap restores a fully depleted rune as a death rune, this ability has no cooldown and no GCD - consuming 5 blood charges restores a death rune. If 2 of your runes are depleted, spamming this will restore 2 death runes, allowing a 4th Obliterate cast on your 4th GCD.

    Empowered Rune Weapon - instantly restores all your runes and gives you 25 runic power, this ability has no global cooldown, meaning pressing this after your 4th Obliterate in 4 GCDs will instantly restore all your runes, allowing you to press a 5th Obliterate on your 5th GCD, a 6th on your 6th GCD, a 7th on your 7th GCD. So your right, 8 times in a row is false - it's only 7 times in a row (but your claim of 2 times in a row is hilariously incorrect). However, having done all that and even if you were completely out of runic power going into this - you now have a full runic power bar and can press 5 frost strikes in a row.

    Killing Machine - actually has something like a 6 PPM rate - which means you are all but guarenteed to get at least 1, and probably 2 Killing Machine procs during the obliterates, plus an additional one during the subsequent frost strikes.

    Now, all that said - if you were doing this for real, you'd want to be cycling in Rime procs because they're free and let you regenerate runes for that 8th (or 9th) obliterate, as well as probably cycling between obliterates and frost strikes to load balance your resources better (unless your burst window was very short, in which case you'd just go for the 7 Obliterates in 7 GCDs and call it a day).
    Last edited by Yvaelle; 2012-10-28 at 12:36 PM.
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  19. #79
    Avatar alone wouldn't kill you.
    Avatar + Reck + Skullbanner will.
    They can't change the cd stacking cause of PvE I think.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Agnaea View Post
    Soooo, you say its ok to get stunned by a passing druid in an 3v3 situation? I mean, he dont even need to think about it !
    Why's it okay for a pally to do but not a druid?

    And whole are monks as a whole OP? You clearly haven't faced a Windwalker or Brewmaster. And almost every healer has an extreme edge on Mistweaver.

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