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  1. #41
    Legendary! Holo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sendai View Post
    I don't mind a challenge, but I can't say I feel very happy about hunters utterly destroying me and their stampede pets killing me while vanished with no flare around...

    And they are everywhere right now. 2s, 3s, battlegrounds, everywhere.
    That's Hunters, not Rogues.

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  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Holo View Post
    That's Hunters, not Rogues.
    Yeah, but it's not the only class blowing me to pieces.
    Shadow Walk : Significantly increases Stealth effectiveness for 6 sec, but causes Stealth to be nerfed to justify its usage. In addition, it uses old Enveloping Shadows icon and has no sound, animation or spell effect to show that the skill is actually doing something.

  3. #43
    Legendary! Holo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sendai View Post
    Yeah, but it's not the only class blowing me to pieces.
    I never look at wow and class balance in a 1v1 perspective. It's dumb to do so since 1 on 1 will never be balanced. Ever.

    In 4.3 you could faceroll anyone playing anything. You are now experiencing what those people were against you in 4.3.

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  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Holo View Post
    I never look at wow and class balance in a 1v1 perspective. It's dumb to do so since 1 on 1 will never be balanced. Ever.

    In 4.3 you could faceroll anyone playing anything. You are now experiencing what those people were against you in 4.3.
    It's happening in 2s and 3s.
    Shadow Walk : Significantly increases Stealth effectiveness for 6 sec, but causes Stealth to be nerfed to justify its usage. In addition, it uses old Enveloping Shadows icon and has no sound, animation or spell effect to show that the skill is actually doing something.

  5. #45
    Brewmaster Hiya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Incineration View Post
    General consensus: No.
    Will we get buffed in 5.1: Not really...
    Should you re-roll: Probably not...
    This sums it up. We are getting 3 shot in PvP, and our PvE dmg is meeh. Sad xpac for rogues
    Quote Originally Posted by Nosonia View Post
    - Remember STV? People had to go to the same netural camps to get quests... shit was serious -

  6. #46
    Rogues are fun to play for me, but I can see why many are frustrated for the class. What would really make Rogue's fun is they actually made Shadow Walk a useful skill to use.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Incineration View Post
    I respectfully disagree with a lot of your points. I'll try to go through all of them, if possible.

    1. "Every class has wait-time..."
    Not entirely correct. There's a significant difference between "down-time" and simple "waiting". Some melee classes/specs, working with resource systems than can be depleted, do indeed have some down-time on their rotations, due to a general lack of resources. Casters, however, do not. Casting a spell isn't "waiting for the rotation to continue" it is a part of the rotation. Casting the spell is, in itself, an action you're performing. You're not "doing nothing". Nevermind the fact that once the cast is finished, guess what? You have more buttons to push, and you can ALWAYS push them. As a DK, however, you may very well have hit an unlucky streak when gaming runes, in which case you won't be able to do anything whatsoever for a couple of seconds.

    2. "Many melee classes have passive damage..."
    Yes, but to varying degrees. The melee/dot damage of a Frost DK, for instance, only makes up about 30%~ of his overall damage. The remaining 70% are entirely special-based. Looking at some of the Fury warrior parses, I'm seeing up to 50% damage coming from 200k-hitting Executes alone! Then we have rogues, who primarily dps via passive sources, and we see upwards of 60% damage coming from white/poison hits.

    3. "Big numbers do not matter..."
    Very, very, very false dichotomy. It's not as simple as that. For PvE, any output is fine, unless it comes at some ridiculous expense(High ramp-up, weak target swapping, etc...). However, you dramatically underestimate the value of general rotational burst, both for PvE and PvP purposes. One of our biggest issues in PvP, as of now, is how much ramp-up we have, how much of our damage is tied to our finishers, and how said finishers only affect our passive output, which is of little to no use in PvP. On that same note, quick swap-bursts are, literally, impossible for us because of our high reliance on passive damage as well. Remember Madness? The Blistering Tentacles? There was simply no point switching to them because a, your specials did no damage, b, your combo points would disappear before you could spend them, c, you'd be energy starved afterwards while your rotation would suffer from the loss of finishers.

    4. "Apparent satisfaction regarding the talent-tree."
    This is were my respectfulness ends. That's pure lunacy and you ought to walk the plank for uttering such blasphemous propositions!
    Ok, I appreciate you keeping the discussion civil. I did mention that I'm talking entirely from a pve perspective because I haven't pvped since burning crusade. Which was, btw the last time you could consider us as a burst class. Our design, by and large for the last 4 years has been passive dmg and control, if you didn't realize this then I don't know what to tell you. Our ramp time had been one of our biggest complaints for years and is still an issue even with the minor tweaks we got recently to deadly poison. Redirect should be no CD or combo points on the rogue and "lore" be damned.

    Second, there are casters with wait time (I'm looking at you arcane mages). They had (not sure in mop) an entire filler rotation based on mana conservation between mind numbingly boring burn phases consisting of arcane blast spam. You want to know a class that isn't fun, try that. But it's a moot point, what I was trying to get across is the number of buttons pushed in our rotation is virtually identical to EVERY class in the game right now.

    Lastly, warriors don't get 50% of their dmg in execute or they would be totally broke on any fight without a lengthy execute and equally broke on any fight with a long execute. That's a bad model for class design and just isn't true.

    I've played a lot of classes in high level raids, I had nearly every class at 85 doing alt raids and LFR in Cataclysm and will eventually again in MOP. What I'm getting at is that I have the perspective a lot of casual raiders lack and I don't see huge issue with the class. I like our current rotations, they are easy enough for less elite players to understand and get good at while letting people like myself try to maximize our output. I don't have great gear, I'm not even raising ATM because our raid time changed and conflicts with work. But I have been doing world bosses, LFR and pug raids and feel fine even at 471 ilevel.

    With that being said I still think we have some issues and could use some tweaks. I just don't see them as big enough issues for people to abandon the class, force a major overhaul that completely changes the class or causes people to cry about being broken. If you read the class forums on battle.net every class thinks they are broken, every one.

  8. #48
    Legendary! Holo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sendai View Post
    It's happening in 2s and 3s.
    Then you are doing it wrong. Or playing against KFC (which you can't beat playing any Rogue comp, hardly worth complaining about because of Rogue. Massive OP in general.)

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  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Rory View Post
    -snip-
    1. Ramp up.
    Our ramp time isn't horrible or problematic at all anymore. Assassination and Sub do not really have any ramp up; get your buffs rolling and you're good to go. Deadly stacks were incredibly painful, as was the fact that Bandit's Guile would reset on target swaps, but hell, current ramp-up is a joke compared to our previous ramp-up. I still maintain that Bandit's Guile is a gift from Satan himself. What a complete waste of time that mechanic is. Really don't see the purpose of it, other than to artificially create ramp-up instead of introducing actual ramp-up. They should either make some actual use of the mechanic or just simply have it normalized.

    2. Caster wait time.
    I was speaking of caster in the general sense. Arcane mages actually care for their resources, which puts them in a boat with a lot of melee classes. Elemental Shammies, on the other hand...

    3. Same amount of buttons pushed.
    I'd say the point you were trying to get across is a moot point in itself. Whether we mash our keyboard equally hard doesn't really matter, what matters is the interval between button presses, I'd say. Let's say we have two different classes and both have 60 seconds to dps a dummy. The first class deals damage consistently; every 2 seconds, 1 button is pushed. The other class, however, has a limited resource system; 30 buttons are pushed in the first 10 seconds, but the rotation is on down-time for the remaining 50 seconds.
    Both classes pressed 30 buttons in 60 seconds, but we both know that only one of these classes would make a tolerable dps class/spec to play. (I know my example is extreme, I'm just trying to get the point across)

    4. Execute.
    My bad, the log I looked at must've been a bugged one. I swear I saw a log of a Fury warrior where 49.something of his damage came from Execute... Oh, well.

    5. Alts.
    I've got a few alts as well, and my experience has been somewhat different. Whenever I log unto my mage or my shaman, the rotational experience becomes much more consistent. There's never any downtime, because there's either always something to press or some proc to look out for. Rogues are much different. If it wasn't for Blindside, looking at your energy bar and pressing "1-1-1-2" every now and then, would be the only thing the rotation would require of you. It's much simpler to be a rogue, and at these gear levels, much slower as well.

    6. "My class is broke..."
    I've spend lots of time on the beta-forums, while MOP was still in development. Every day or two, there'd be a new 50-page thread, full of complaining rogues. Never saw anything similar for any other class(apart from a single thread dedicated to Enhancement shammies, I think?). Warriors and Locks were very contempt, didn't hear a word from Hunters, Paladins were pretty happy...... The only complaints I remember reading, were complaints from Mages and DK's. Valid complaints as well, I'd say, but they weren't doomsday complaints, just comments on how their resource-generation talents, that are supposed to represent "choice", would simply be dictated to them by math, or in the case of Mages, how painful they were to use during an encounter.

    Hell, go check out the "Worth Every Rogue's Vote" thread. The link contains a compilation of SEVERAL beta-threads worth of suggestions, complaints, ideas, etc...

    7. Rogues haven't been about burst for a while...
    I assume you didn't play Sub during Cataclysm? If you did, you'd know you were wrong.

  10. #50
    Legendary! Holo's Avatar
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    Rogues were never about burst. But it just happened to be there.

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  11. #51
    Mechagnome
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holo View Post
    Rogues were never about burst. But it just happened to be there.
    I agree with what you are saying, but we did have a pretty obscene amount of burst back in vanilla

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Holo View Post
    Rogues were never about burst. But it just happened to be there.
    I'm sorry, I didn't realize we were arguing semantics.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Holo View Post
    Rogues were never about burst. But it just happened to be there.
    Yeah other than vanilla or BC Mut that is true.

    I think Holo what some players are frustrated with is that now that some classes have the same control/mobility of Rogues but also superior burst. I can see the appeal rolling a warrior now has for example.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Holo View Post
    Then you are doing it wrong. Or playing against KFC (which you can't beat playing any Rogue comp, hardly worth complaining about because of Rogue. Massive OP in general.)
    I'm playing with a mage now in 2s and we're pretty much instantly losing if :
    -Enemy team has a BM hunter (often).
    -Enemy team is frost mage/shadow priest.
    -Enemy team has warrior/resto druid and or other big burst class.

    In 3s, Godcomps, KFcs, double warrior/bm hunter and healer, etc.
    Shadow Walk : Significantly increases Stealth effectiveness for 6 sec, but causes Stealth to be nerfed to justify its usage. In addition, it uses old Enveloping Shadows icon and has no sound, animation or spell effect to show that the skill is actually doing something.

  15. #55
    Legendary! Luko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Incineration View Post
    I'm sorry, I didn't realize we were arguing semantics.
    This is Holo we're talking about. His other posts in this thread alone could have let you in on his priorities.
    Listen kiddos, trust Handsome Jack. You want every part of this insanity.
    So many people are gonna die.

    Formerly Ryngo Blackratchet

  16. #56
    Legendary! Holo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    Yeah other than vanilla or BC Mut that is true.

    I think Holo what some players are frustrated with is that now that some classes have the same control/mobility of Rogues but also superior burst. I can see the appeal rolling a warrior now has for example.
    That is because those classes are OP. Not because Rogue is that bad.

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  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Holo View Post
    That is because those classes are OP. Not because Rogue is that bad.
    I've never really had any issues with gaging what my opponents should be able to throw at me. The only class that currently actually seems overpowered is Hunters, because they can literally pop cooldowns and instant win most encounters. Warriors seem fine, as do ferals, priests, and so on...

    No, it doesn't feel like these classes have too much, it feels like we have too little. Our one ability that is supposed to sustain us comes at too heavy a cost, our general damaging mechanics are tuned in a way that is unsuitable for PvP unless massive debuffs like Find Weakness are present, and our mobility doesn't hold a candle to the cc's and mobility of these other classes.

    You suggest that it's a problem that these classes have gotten abilities/mechanics.
    I say it's a problem that we were NOT given the same abilities/mechanics.

  18. #58
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    Rogues are bad, mkay.

    Play feral druid, they're the rogues now.

  19. #59
    Legendary! Holo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Incineration View Post
    Warriors seem fine, as do ferals, priests, and so on...
    Out of every 10 High Ranked teams. 9 contain a Warrior and 5 contain a Hunter. And you say Warriors are fine?

    I played one, hell i'm nearly done levelling one and i can tell you.. this alt will be walking T2 VERY FAST after getting max level.

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  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Incineration View Post
    Yes, damage is fine, but that doesn't mean the class is fine.
    Quote Originally Posted by Incineration View Post
    Damage is still incredibly low; not due to gear, but due to mechanical/design issues.

    Wait, what?

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