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  1. #61
    I think my main issue with Rogue at the moment is; I've played Rogue all through WotLK and Cata, and I've always been fairly happy with the damage. I've never been fantastic at my class, and have never claimed to be better than everyone else.

    However, I'm astounded that - after reading many threads on which is the best "spec", which rotation I should be using, which stats I should prioritise, and spending 4 weeks trying to get my rogue's dps up on the dummy, I can then log onto my half-geared druid and beat the dps of my rogue instantly without knowing a thing about feral (primarily resto, still got about 4-5 pieces of resto gear).

    I agree with the vocal minority at the moment, I think rogues do have a problem. However, as I said, I'm not crazy-skilled, so pin-pointing exactly what feels wrong is difficult. We're squishy, and our damage and mobility doesn't do enough to make up for that. In my opinion.

  2. #62
    PvP and PvE are two totally different things, why anyone is trying to have a discussion about the state of the class and ignoring that is beyond me. PVP hasn't been remotely balanced ever, although it was closer in BC and has been more lopsided since because of gear and stat inflation.

    Rogues are fine in PVE, if you can't beat your Druid you are either 1) doing something wrong or 2) under geared. Rogue is massively weapon and gear dependant. I went up a ton when I got a 476 dagger, if you are under 470-475 you are still massively under geared.

    In PVP we may have issues, as I have said several times I don't like pvp anymore, rogues were fun prior to 3.0 and since then not so much. But if you want to have a serious discussion and be taken seriously then you all need to acknowledge this is two conversations.

  3. #63
    Legendary! Luko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rory View Post
    if you are under 470-475 you are still massively under geared.
    .
    Haha, I love this mentality.

    "Unless you're to the point where you basically dont even need gear anymore, you're massively under geared."
    Listen kiddos, trust Handsome Jack. You want every part of this insanity.
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  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Haha, I love this mentality.

    "Unless you're to the point where you basically dont even need gear anymore, you're massively under geared."
    Uh, I kinda see his point personally. Its so easy to get 483 epics to raid with. That plus a couple of valor pieces and certainly even with bad luck, 1-2 raid drops, and 2 weeks of lfr... 470-475 means you didn't even really try.

  5. #65
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    Right, but what kind of mentality is that for someone starting out, which allow me to remind you, is the point of the thread? What kind of confidence does that imbue for the new rogue running 5mans, scenarios or even entry level raiding. I certainly didn't have that issue on my warrior or monk, even at lower gear levels.

    That's a hell of a thing to hear for someone who's probably already been gearing up other classes and maybe interested in picking their rogue back up. We need to remember, not everyone is raiding. Not everyone wants to. Rogue used to be the go-to class along with hunter for people who enjoyed doing things alone, soloing elites and as of Cata, old content as well. These things have been hell for the non-raid-geared rogue. Is that not as important as geared raiding performance?
    Listen kiddos, trust Handsome Jack. You want every part of this insanity.
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  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Right, but what kind of mentality is that for someone starting out, which allow me to remind you, is the point of the thread? What kind of confidence does that imbue for the new rogue running 5mans, scenarios or even entry level raiding. I certainly didn't have that issue on my warrior or monk, even at lower gear levels.

    That's a hell of a thing to hear for someone who's probably already been gearing up other classes and maybe interested in picking their rogue back up. We need to remember, not everyone is raiding. Not everyone wants to. Rogue used to be the go-to class along with hunter for people who enjoyed doing things alone, soloing elites and as of Cata, old content as well. These things have been hell for the non-raid-geared rogue. Is that not as important as geared raiding performance?
    Um, I think you're missing the point. If you are a new anything running 5 mans, how do you consider yourself anything but massively undergeared? I mean you are running 5 mans precisely because you are massively undergeared (unless somehow it is because you enjoy them and do them for fun?). He was actually providing useful information to some new rogue running 5 mans by pretty clearly implying that they will suck until they get geared enough so that they are not "massively undergeared." You're just jumping on him for no reason.

    I think its actually a pretty good mentality. Straight-forward and not sugar coating it. You want to tell them that their 470 gear is super awesome and they will be topping the charts with it (ok I'm exaggerating a bit on the sugar coating)? Now that is a bad mentality to have for giving advice to those new rogues running 5 mans, they will level up, get their 463 gear, be massively disappointed, and not have fun. On the other hand, he is clearly letting them know that with enough gear they will be alright, but 470-475 is massively undergeared if your goal was to reach that point.

    As for doing non raid content and sucking, do you actually remember being absolutely amazing in your blue cata heroic gear? I certainly don't. Blizzard will add in enough hand out epics to fix that later. And no, it isn't as important. You do more dps with 463 blues as you did at 85 with non heroic raid gear (which hey if you aren't interested in raiding you shouldn't have had). You also have 2.5x or more hp. Soloing old stuff isn't a problem if you could do it before. As for elites, I could in my 463 gear solo pretty much any elite most of my guildies could solo (with greater difficulty perhaps, but whatever).
    Last edited by Sesshou; 2012-10-31 at 07:35 PM.

  7. #67
    Well, since Blizzard couldn't restore my vanilla rogue, they gave me instant boost to 80. Should I go rogue or DK?

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    I think its actually a pretty good mentality. Straight-forward and not sugar coating it. You want to tell them that their 470 gear is super awesome and they will be topping the charts with it (ok I'm exaggerating a bit on the sugar coating)? Now that is a bad mentality to have for giving advice to those new rogues running 5 mans, they will level up, get their 463 gear, be massively disappointed, and not have fun. On the other hand, he is clearly letting them know that with enough gear they will be alright, but 470-475 is massively undergeared if your goal was to reach that point.
    It actually seems like we're on the same (or at least a similar) page but differ in presentation. What you wrote in this last response is actually quality stuff. Can't say that I disagree with any of it.
    Listen kiddos, trust Handsome Jack. You want every part of this insanity.
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  9. #69
    No offense, but if you think 470-475 qualifies as "basically don't need gear anymore" you have no business talking in this thread. 463 is heroic blues, heroic blues are the lowest ilevel quality max level gear. By definition between that and 476 (welfare LFR/crafted epics) is undergeared. Period. No argument, no opinion, no conjecture. That's the way the game has been set up. You aren't supposed to feel overpowered with shit gear, it's never been that way and never will.

    I'm getting really sick of trying to explain this common sense stuff to people. For the hundredth time: we are a gear based class, possibly the most gear dependant one in the game. Yet we are still in a good place for pve, we are easily capable of topping the charts with gear and we "feel" fine with even the smallest effort at gathering gear. I am at 471 wihout doing any raids besides LFR and Sha, I have one VP ring and no exalted reps. I have not even gotten half the VP possible each week and I only bought one crafted epic. I still already feel fine for pve, but again I don't pvp so I have no comment. But it's likely the people bitching aren't even wearing decent gear yet so I think it's probably too early to tell.

    You can say "but such and such class is fine and doesn't have to gear like this" and my response is: bullshit. You don't know that class, you're making an unsubstantiated claim based on someone kicking your teeth in. If you're undergeared it doesn't take much, if they have better gear it doesn't take much. Everything looks better from the other side. Have there been cases where things got unbalanced? Sure, warriors did call for their execute to be nerfed and I believe it's coming, but that isn't a reason we are terrible. If you think it's so bad: re-roll. By don't think your opinion is the be all end all just because most of the happy people don't post in threads like this. The "consensus" is not that rogues are broken, the consensus is we are fine. It's just he vocal minority complaining, keyword minority.

    I'd say this to the OP: go ahead and try it out. No one can tell you if you'll enjoy rogue or not, same as any class. I personally enjoy my rogue and have for a long time. Be ready to put in time and effort gearing and learning the specs if you want to be good. Passive dmg doesn't mean you can autoattack and be competetive, a lot goes into being a good rogue and we are one of the harder classes to maximize which is why there are so many bad rogues.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-01 at 09:15 AM ----------

    As a final note because I'm done posting unless someone's comment needs to directly be responded to: thank you to the people who read my comments in full and understood the point I was trying to make. I'm not trying to be an elitist or a jerk, but people think everything should be handed to them and easy these days. No one wants to work for anything and if they aren't perfect the game is broken. It's the wrong attitude and it makes me wish epics were like vanilla when only the best got tier from the final couple raids, the tears would sustain me for years. But seriously, thank you. It's good to see some people understand.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Rory View Post
    No offense, but if you think 470-475 qualifies as "basically don't need gear anymore" you have no business talking in this thread. 463 is heroic blues, heroic blues are the lowest ilevel quality max level gear. By definition between that and 476 (welfare LFR/crafted epics) is undergeared. Period. No argument, no opinion, no conjecture. That's the way the game has been set up. You aren't supposed to feel overpowered with shit gear, it's never been that way and never will.

    I'm getting really sick of trying to explain this common sense stuff to people. For the hundredth time: we are a gear based class, possibly the most gear dependant one in the game. Yet we are still in a good place for pve, we are easily capable of topping the charts with gear and we "feel" fine with even the smallest effort at gathering gear. I am at 471 wihout doing any raids besides LFR and Sha, I have one VP ring and no exalted reps. I have not even gotten half the VP possible each week and I only bought one crafted epic. I still already feel fine for pve, but again I don't pvp so I have no comment. But it's likely the people bitching aren't even wearing decent gear yet so I think it's probably too early to tell.

    You can say "but such and such class is fine and doesn't have to gear like this" and my response is: bullshit. You don't know that class, you're making an unsubstantiated claim based on someone kicking your teeth in. If you're undergeared it doesn't take much, if they have better gear it doesn't take much. Everything looks better from the other side. Have there been cases where things got unbalanced? Sure, warriors did call for their execute to be nerfed and I believe it's coming, but that isn't a reason we are terrible. If you think it's so bad: re-roll. By don't think your opinion is the be all end all just because most of the happy people don't post in threads like this. The "consensus" is not that rogues are broken, the consensus is we are fine. It's just he vocal minority complaining, keyword minority.

    I'd say this to the OP: go ahead and try it out. No one can tell you if you'll enjoy rogue or not, same as any class. I personally enjoy my rogue and have for a long time. Be ready to put in time and effort gearing and learning the specs if you want to be good. Passive dmg doesn't mean you can autoattack and be competetive, a lot goes into being a good rogue and we are one of the harder classes to maximize which is why there are so many bad rogues.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-01 at 09:15 AM ----------

    As a final note because I'm done posting unless someone's comment needs to directly be responded to: thank you to the people who read my comments in full and understood the point I was trying to make. I'm not trying to be an elitist or a jerk, but people think everything should be handed to them and easy these days. No one wants to work for anything and if they aren't perfect the game is broken. It's the wrong attitude and it makes me wish epics were like vanilla when only the best got tier from the final couple raids, the tears would sustain me for years. But seriously, thank you. It's good to see some people understand.

    Just a few things to add. I don't really think it's just the minority that complains. Just have a look at the official rogue forums as well. Tons of people are asking for small QoL changes. It's true that we scale godly with gear but I don't really see other classes doing this poorly in "starter gear" (not necessarily in dps but in let's say quality of gameplay maybe). Lastly the zero to hero scaling is really not fine and something should be done to break this cycle.
    You could be right with the "there are many bad rogues" out there, as the end of cata made many reroll to one. On the other hand I don't really agree with the "we are one of the harder classes to maximise". This would have been true in cata where sub took some planning and skill to play, but I think today all 3 specs are just too easy to play and that's why they may seem a bit boring.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Avengerx View Post
    Just a few things to add. I don't really think it's just the minority that complains. Just have a look at the official rogue forums as well. Tons of people are asking for small QoL changes. It's true that we scale godly with gear but I don't really see other classes doing this poorly in "starter gear" (not necessarily in dps but in let's say quality of gameplay maybe). Lastly the zero to hero scaling is really not fine and something should be done to break this cycle.
    You could be right with the "there are many bad rogues" out there, as the end of cata made many reroll to one. On the other hand I don't really agree with the "we are one of the harder classes to maximise". This would have been true in cata where sub took some planning and skill to play, but I think today all 3 specs are just too easy to play and that's why they may seem a bit boring.
    Alright, I wasn't going to post anymore but I feel like I should clarify what I meant. When I say maximize I'm not talking about the rotation. The rotations (even sub in cataclysm) are easy, particularly on target dummy Patchwerk style fights. However, maximizing your dps is everything little to big: enchants, gems, reforging, knowing the fights and what your job is, knowing when and how to switch targets, knowing when to use cooldowns, being able to maximize your uptimes (SnD as well as time on boss). People severely underestimate the little factors like knowing what and when to attack. That's maximizing your class and is the reason most players (not just rogues) just plain aren't capable of playing at the top level.

    I'm not usually one to brag and I'm by no means one of the best in the world, but I've been in two high level 25m guilds since midway through BC (top 75 and 50 US respectively) and so I have played with and seen some very good players. I have learned a lot and become a good player largely because I had good feedback and was fortunate enough to see what a serious raid is like. The mindset is completely different, the preparation is different, the culture is different. It's frustrating to me to see people complain when there is so much more they could be doing to get better. Right now in the warrior forums they are all bitching because warriors aren't OP in PVP and the nerf coming is going to make them completely worthless in both pve and pvp. I'm telling you, everyone blames the game/class/devs for their performance if it isn't what they think it should be.

    People do the same thing in real life, take credit for success and shift blame for failure. It's a bad attitude and it's wrong, blame yourself for failure and be humble in success. You'll get further and you'll become a better person, not just in game but in life. I'm not perfect, I can get a lot better at rogue than I am but I can tell you right now that the guy who doesn't know his role on will of emperor who doesn't have his gear gemmed/enchanted/reforged isn't a good indicator of the state of our class.

  12. #72
    Rogues any fun to play?

    My impression of what others think: No, boring as hell!
    My opinion: Most fun class ingame, played rogue since BC been my main ever since. Have 9 classes on 85, rogue on 90 and monk on 82. One downside I see thogh is that you are forced to dps, eg no role choice.

  13. #73
    I just tried rogue on my friends account, there are just fine.. I don't see why people complain.. anyways thanks for the tips guys!

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Rory View Post
    PvP and PvE are two totally different things, why anyone is trying to have a discussion about the state of the class and ignoring that is beyond me. PVP hasn't been remotely balanced ever, although it was closer in BC and has been more lopsided since because of gear and stat inflation.

    Rogues are fine in PVE, if you can't beat your Druid you are either 1) doing something wrong or 2) under geared. Rogue is massively weapon and gear dependant. I went up a ton when I got a 476 dagger, if you are under 470-475 you are still massively under geared.

    In PVP we may have issues, as I have said several times I don't like pvp anymore, rogues were fun prior to 3.0 and since then not so much. But if you want to have a serious discussion and be taken seriously then you all need to acknowledge this is two conversations.
    This is it in a nutshell, and I completely agree. For PvP, Sub Rogues need Hemo to proc Sanguinary Vein. I wanna talk about that from a PvE perspective for a bit. SV's +50% damage to Rupture should ensure it remains a necessary component in PvE rotations, and the only effect would a few seconds in the priority of the opener for most sub rogues. What it would help, severely, is Sub's ramp on in-combat target switches. Working up to a decent sized rupture takes time, usually 4 GCDs and 150 energy. Without a Rupture (or Garrote or Crimson Tempest) on a target, the Rogue's damage output is 20% less - notwithstanding the loss of the dps from Rupture itself. And Rupture is on the target, not the rogue. This becomes an issue on fights like Garajal if you go in to handle adds, there's nearly no way to put up rupture without wasting most of its effect.

    It's also an issue in PvP it that it severely punishes fast target-swaps by lengthening the ramp into your burst. Rupturing in S11 was something rogues did rarely - usually to stack pressure on a target while either waiting for a switch-burst combo or setting up a partner's burst. Now, rupturing is necessary to be able to do anything more than anemic damage in PvP. But the way it ramps makes it very difficult to line up.

    Historically, rogues have had more control than any other class, but now there's plenty of classes with as much or more. So even trying to manage a fight until you setup your burst is difficult - especially when facing off against classes and comps who don't have to deal with the long ramp.

    Other thoughts - Prep just needs to be baseline for all specs and replaced on the mobility talent tier with an actual mobility talent. Taking Smoke Bomb off Prep was the right call, but Prep isn't a mobility talent and shouldn't be on a rogue's mobility tier. It's something that's too good not to take in virtually every situation, and it's baffling that it was presented as a 'choice' because it's not - and that's exactly what Blizzard wanted to get away from. I'd honestly give up Smoke Bomb entirely to get Prep as baseline - it's THAT necessary.

  15. #75
    Legendary! Luko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ranera View Post
    I just tried rogue on my friends account, there are just fine.. I don't see why people complain.. anyways thanks for the tips guys!
    And there you have it. Discredited the entire 4 page discussion based on a conflicting, short term, inexperienced opinion. Topic concluded!
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  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Rory View Post
    Alright, I wasn't going to post anymore but I feel like I should clarify what I meant. When I say maximize I'm not talking about the rotation. The rotations (even sub in cataclysm) are easy, particularly on target dummy Patchwerk style fights. However, maximizing your dps is everything little to big: enchants, gems, reforging, knowing the fights and what your job is, knowing when and how to switch targets, knowing when to use cooldowns, being able to maximize your uptimes (SnD as well as time on boss). People severely underestimate the little factors like knowing what and when to attack. That's maximizing your class and is the reason most players (not just rogues) just plain aren't capable of playing at the top level.

    I'm not usually one to brag and I'm by no means one of the best in the world, but I've been in two high level 25m guilds since midway through BC (top 75 and 50 US respectively) and so I have played with and seen some very good players. I have learned a lot and become a good player largely because I had good feedback and was fortunate enough to see what a serious raid is like. The mindset is completely different, the preparation is different, the culture is different. It's frustrating to me to see people complain when there is so much more they could be doing to get better. Right now in the warrior forums they are all bitching because warriors aren't OP in PVP and the nerf coming is going to make them completely worthless in both pve and pvp. I'm telling you, everyone blames the game/class/devs for their performance if it isn't what they think it should be.

    People do the same thing in real life, take credit for success and shift blame for failure. It's a bad attitude and it's wrong, blame yourself for failure and be humble in success. You'll get further and you'll become a better person, not just in game but in life. I'm not perfect, I can get a lot better at rogue than I am but I can tell you right now that the guy who doesn't know his role on will of emperor who doesn't have his gear gemmed/enchanted/reforged isn't a good indicator of the state of our class.
    I totally agree with you on the being prepared part tho I don't get how a raid or raid leader accepts someone who's not fully gemmed,enchanted etc. In cata when we still had a decent raid group our hottie pally healer always mentioned if someone had an unenchanted item, which wasn't such a bad thing. Besides this tho I still feel that the class is "not fine". And not dps wise here as that will come in time, maybe as usual we will be way to OP by the end of this exp again.(I don't want this tbh). I just don't fell the class to be unique anymore like it was previously, other classes gained many skills that are on par or even better than our ones while we are still using our "vanilla" ones.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Avengerx View Post
    I totally agree with you on the being prepared part tho I don't get how a raid or raid leader accepts someone who's not fully gemmed,enchanted etc. In cata when we still had a decent raid group our hottie pally healer always mentioned if someone had an unenchanted item, which wasn't such a bad thing. Besides this tho I still feel that the class is "not fine". And not dps wise here as that will come in time, maybe as usual we will be way to OP by the end of this exp again.(I don't want this tbh). I just don't fell the class to be unique anymore like it was previously, other classes gained many skills that are on par or even better than our ones while we are still using our "vanilla" ones.
    A lot of the classes that got "new" abilities are just like the Rogues that are rehashes of the same stuff. Dispatch isn't Backstab? Oh, you tweaked the percentages and removed the positional requirement...but it's the same icon and exactly the same ability (sub 35%). Mages, Warlocks, Priests and Warriors all play more or less the same as they always have too.

    I get that people don't think the class feels fine, the point I've been trying so hard to get across is that gear directly affects how each class feels. It changes not just your damage but the rotations, the number of GCDs that you have free and our resource generation itself. I saw a very good Frost DK thread on elitist jerks that was breaking down advanced rotational stuff...and one point he talks about is free GCDs and how they can be used to maximize a rotation by having periods of doing nothing when certain conditions are met (no capping resources, no lost procs, etc). It sounded an awful lot like energy pooling to me and most of the DKs were having a hard time understanding it, they thought that if they had a resource available they should always spend it to increase dps when it isn't always the right call. We learned that as rogues a long time ago, my point is that this author *got* it. He talked about how available GCDs and rotational stuff would change as the expansion matures.

    The same thing will happen for us, we won't feel the same at the end of this tier as we do now. PVP is a whole other issue, it does seem we have some issues there that will need to be addressed. But I don't have experience in recent PVP so I just choose not to talk about it.

  18. #78
    Made an account here to post this.
    Loved playing rogue before Cata came. Stun locks, big crits. One shot ambushes at pve clothies.
    Then Cata came, and MoP is pretty the same in terms of rogue gameplay. No big crits. No stun locks. No oneshots. Nothing. A class that kills his target with a thousand small knife cuts. So: no, if I were you, I won't return as a rogue, 'cos rogues now are nothing more than shadows of shadows of their former glory. Play retri pala or warrior, if you want a strong melee with fun gameplay.
    p.s. And yes, big numbers are must have. And I mean not the overall dps or stupid WoL rankings. When SS or Evis crits for some pathetic 30k, a part of my rogue soul dies.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    And there you have it. Discredited the entire 4 page discussion based on a conflicting, short term, inexperienced opinion. Topic concluded!
    In the end, everybody has different preferences. But at least the thread was an interesting read. (for me at least)
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  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Holo View Post
    I never look at wow and class balance in a 1v1 perspective. It's dumb to do so since 1 on 1 will never be balanced. Ever.

    In 4.3 you could faceroll anyone playing anything. You are now experiencing what those people were against you in 4.3.
    You should ask yourself if it balanced that Rogues are dominated by every class in the game. Name one class that you counter and can beat with little effort... don't worry I'll wait.
    "Knock the world right off it's feet, and straight onto it's head."

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