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  1. #21
    Check out some of the top monks, a lot of them don't fistweave at all
    http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/play...an_Vaults/hps/

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Zxzas View Post
    You're a terrible healer if you dont "fist weave". You certainly don't generate enough chi through any other means.

    How you are 2nd, or top healing meters is beyond me by just sitting there casting Soothing Mist, using expel harm/renewing mist on cd. Unless you are just lucky on RNG with soothing mist.
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/p4ljvqyd6svj5ixi/

    This is me not being bad, and not jabbing.
    In case you forgot, surging mists generate chi and it's instant cast while you channel soothing mist.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Illiterate View Post
    Check out some of the top monks, a lot of them don't fistweave at all
    http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/play...an_Vaults/hps/
    well it is true some top monks do not fistweave but also other monks do fistweave.
    there is no 1 way to heal. both healing specs are viable. somebody that does not enjoy fistweaving will never get the full potential out of it and will do better with ranged healing. somebody that likes fistweaving but not ranged healing will get more benefit from fistweaving. its clear that both ways work seeing there are multiple monks with 6/6 HC that use both or use one or the other. for instance affiniti from bloodlegion didn't fistweave at all on HC Elegon 25m while a lot of people say fistweaving is really good there cause of the dmg and healing buff. while affiniti topped healing meter without fistweaving and they got the kill. this shows that it really does not matter what you do as long as you enjoy it and your guild is fine with your performance then everybody should just play what they want.

    for example fistweaving can help on a tight enrage timer on a boss to get some extra dmg in. but this is only needed if your dps is not making it on their own. because if the dps makes it without your help then fistweaving is not more useful then ranged healing. if they don't make it and you helping with fistweaving to do some extra dmg to get the kill might be beneficial.

    and i know this discussion will always be ongoing between monks and yes theoretically there is always a more effecient way to play. but i think people should play what they like and how they like to play not force themselves upon something they don't like. especially if they can be perfectly fine with the way they play.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Illiterate View Post
    Check out some of the top monks, a lot of them don't fistweave at all
    http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/play...an_Vaults/hps/
    When you take a look at healing done on WoL you will notice that fistweaving and range healing are very close. There is no "superior" healing spec.

    But people tend to forget that fistweavers also add 10-25k dps to your raid. If you add the dps and the hps, fistweavers are more efficient right now.
    On the other side fistweavers as melee usually require more healing themelves, and have to look out for raid mechanics (for example most healing needed on elegon on P1 is when the add explodes - if you simply follow your melees you will be running back to elegon in that moment. So you have to reset your buff at a different time (or use some of your CDs appropriately)).

    But it's always a question of playstyle - if you don't like it, don't do it. If you have problems getting enough dps for some fight/phase, you might want to reconsider.
    Yes, it will also be possible to do it without fistweaving (if you would be for example a druid instead of a monk, there wouldn't even be the choice), but it could make things easier.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyriaa View Post
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/p4ljvqyd6svj5ixi/

    This is me not being bad, and not jabbing.
    In case you forgot, surging mists generate chi and it's instant cast while you channel soothing mist.
    You had an effective 23k hps, slightly higher than a resto Druid ( and just slightly) peaking around 130k hps, and you're saying you're not doing bad?
    Lolwat.
    I absolutely dominate any fight with AoE healing. I can afk every phase but gas on will and still top healing meters because SCK/jab is so strong.
    Surging mist is a horrible chi generator. NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER EVER USE IT.
    As far as progression goes I'm a 3/6H crit stacking monk with 7500 spirit and never go OOM. My possible throughput is ridiculous.
    If you aren't jabbing for chi you're gimping yourself. Unless you're using SCK efficiently. On Elegon there is time before adds explode to generate chi via expel harm and renewing mist, so you don't need to there.
    Fist weaving as keeping up serpents zeal isn't that good even in theory it barely outheals a chi burst with 100% uptime in boss.
    Fist weaving As generating chi via jab is simply better than generating from range. Period. If you refuse to do it, you're just playing badly. Jabx2/uplift AoE healing destroys soothing mist/uplift. SCKx2/uplift is 10-15% better hps and very slightly more mana efficiency current. Atleast in my crit stacking gear, which I prefer for burst healing.
    I've yet to find a monk outheal me, even on WoL, except when I am healing with another good monk and/or when I didn't use revival twice. My name is Astraios if you want to look me up in logs. Accent on the a so good luck armorying me to laugh at my crit stacking. (Alt 134).

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by gnorrior View Post
    You had an effective 23k hps, slightly higher than a resto Druid ( and just slightly) peaking around 130k hps, and you're saying you're not doing bad?
    Lolwat.
    I absolutely dominate any fight with AoE healing. I can afk every phase but gas on will and still top healing meters because SCK/jab is so strong.
    Surging mist is a horrible chi generator. NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER EVER USE IT.
    As far as progression goes I'm a 3/6H crit stacking monk with 7500 spirit and never go OOM. My possible throughput is ridiculous.
    If you aren't jabbing for chi you're gimping yourself. Unless you're using SCK efficiently. On Elegon there is time before adds explode to generate chi via expel harm and renewing mist, so you don't need to there.
    Fist weaving as keeping up serpents zeal isn't that good even in theory it barely outheals a chi burst with 100% uptime in boss.
    Fist weaving As generating chi via jab is simply better than generating from range. Period. If you refuse to do it, you're just playing badly. Jabx2/uplift AoE healing destroys soothing mist/uplift. SCKx2/uplift is 10-15% better hps and very slightly more mana efficiency current. Atleast in my crit stacking gear, which I prefer for burst healing.
    I've yet to find a monk outheal me, even on WoL, except when I am healing with another good monk and/or when I didn't use revival twice. My name is Astraios if you want to look me up in logs. Accent on the a so good luck armorying me to laugh at my crit stacking. (Alt 134).
    ALT 134 is showing a dagger symbol for me lol. I want to learn how to heal so I'd like to see various ways people gear.

    Are you 10 or 25m, out of curiosity.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by gnorrior View Post
    You had an effective 23k hps, slightly higher than a resto Druid ( and just slightly) peaking around 130k hps, and you're saying you're not doing bad?
    Lolwat.
    I absolutely dominate any fight with AoE healing. I can afk every phase but gas on will and still top healing meters because SCK/jab is so strong.
    Surging mist is a horrible chi generator. NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER EVER USE IT.
    As far as progression goes I'm a 3/6H crit stacking monk with 7500 spirit and never go OOM. My possible throughput is ridiculous.
    If you aren't jabbing for chi you're gimping yourself. Unless you're using SCK efficiently. On Elegon there is time before adds explode to generate chi via expel harm and renewing mist, so you don't need to there.
    Fist weaving as keeping up serpents zeal isn't that good even in theory it barely outheals a chi burst with 100% uptime in boss.
    Fist weaving As generating chi via jab is simply better than generating from range. Period. If you refuse to do it, you're just playing badly. Jabx2/uplift AoE healing destroys soothing mist/uplift. SCKx2/uplift is 10-15% better hps and very slightly more mana efficiency current. Atleast in my crit stacking gear, which I prefer for burst healing.
    I've yet to find a monk outheal me, even on WoL, except when I am healing with another good monk and/or when I didn't use revival twice. My name is Astraios if you want to look me up in logs. Accent on the a so good luck armorying me to laugh at my crit stacking. (Alt 134).
    You're looking at the "Full Report," not the log for the fight. On the fight she had 36305 effective HPS, not 23k, which is high enough to rank. I would say that she's not doing bad. On the note of Resto Druids, they're actually logging a little bit better than monks on Will of the Emperor for 10N. She only uses Surging Mists 3 times in her fight, but yes, it's an awful way to generate chi. She actually outhealed you on your last week's kill. For being 365 equipped ilevel I think she did pretty well other than not using Mana Tea nearly enough.

    On subject, I'm a fan of fistweaving, mainly because how iffy chi can be for Soothing Mists. the 35% chi gain might make this a little better in 5.1. I also prefer crit stacking, but that might all change in 5.1 as well with the buffs to Gift of the Serpent. On 10 man SCK can be a little more difficult to use, as there aren't as many people stacked into a tight area. Wha t is the minimum # of people you want in range of your SCK for it to be viable healing (HPS and HPM)?
    Last edited by JRule; 2012-10-29 at 03:41 PM.

  8. #28
    Surging mists isn't supposed to be used as chi generation, you'd run oom way to fast, but it's there and it's an emergency button. It's the Flash of light for monks but it hits as hard as Divine light. As far as crit stacking goes I don't see any reason to laugh there. Tbh, I don't understand why there's so many mastery monks out there, it requires your raid to walk over orbs (which mine never do, we were surrounded by hundreds of orbs during titan gas and nobody grabbed them, it was a sight to see). Crit offers more throughput and better burst healing without having to ask your ranged dps to sacrifice a bit of their damage to move to an orb. Mastery offers a more mana efficient way of healing but only if your raid uses your orbs. The 5.1 PTR patch notes are looking really good for the mastery build right now, but you're still going to get more out of mastery if they walk over your orbs.

  9. #29
    So I have a level 90 monk alt and I'm new to healing on this class. Sorry for being a total noob, but I have a a couple of questions:
    1. When 'fistweaving' - do you change stances to get more chi? (also is there a mana cost to switch your stance?)
    2. When you SCK (Spinning Crane Kick) , it states:
    While channeling Spinning Crane Kick, you also heal nearby injured allies for 4013 every 0.75 sec for 2 sec. Healing yourself does not count for Chi generation.
    Is this a flat number, or does it do more healing via your statue/Eminence based upon the damage you?

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by mcbubble View Post
    So I have a level 90 monk alt and I'm new to healing on this class. Sorry for being a total noob, but I have a a couple of questions:
    1. When 'fistweaving' - do you change stances to get more chi? (also is there a mana cost to switch your stance?)
    2. When you SCK (Spinning Crane Kick) , it states:
    While channeling Spinning Crane Kick, you also heal nearby injured allies for 4013 every 0.75 sec for 2 sec. Healing yourself does not count for Chi generation.
    Is this a flat number, or does it do more healing via your statue/Eminence based upon the damage you?
    1. Don't stance dance. You won't proc Eminence while in dps stance, plus it's probably pretty dangerous if someone needs heals you'll have to swap stances then try to start healing them.
    2. Things that do damage + heal don't proc Eminence.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by mcbubble View Post
    So I have a level 90 monk alt and I'm new to healing on this class. Sorry for being a total noob, but I have a a couple of questions:
    1. When 'fistweaving' - do you change stances to get more chi? (also is there a mana cost to switch your stance?)
    2. When you SCK (Spinning Crane Kick) , it states:
    While channeling Spinning Crane Kick, you also heal nearby injured allies for 4013 every 0.75 sec for 2 sec. Healing yourself does not count for Chi generation.

    Is this a flat number, or does it do more healing via your statue/Eminence based upon the damage you?
    You don't change stances because Serpent stance is what causes the healing done by damage.
    That number isn't the actual number, it scales with stats. I believe that you'll heal your party/raid members with the kick itself and then if it deals any sort of damage that it will also proc eminence, so you're getting both heals.

  12. #32
    When i was healing 10m I tried some fistweaving, but didnt really work out for me. Couldnt leave the tanks so much so i just ended up soothing mist on tank and using expel harm pretty much every cd. Have only killed 1/6hc in 10man though.

    And I guess it could depend on that our druid wasnt very good.
    Kamatari - Endy - Liita

  13. #33
    Tried fistweaving, for me it felt clunky. With the new ptr changes I'll definately stick to the non melee healing.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by gnorrior View Post
    You had an effective 23k hps, slightly higher than a resto Druid ( and just slightly) peaking around 130k hps, and you're saying you're not doing bad?
    Lolwat.
    I absolutely dominate any fight with AoE healing. I can afk every phase but gas on will and still top healing meters because SCK/jab is so strong.
    Surging mist is a horrible chi generator. NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER EVER USE IT.
    As far as progression goes I'm a 3/6H crit stacking monk with 7500 spirit and never go OOM. My possible throughput is ridiculous.
    If you aren't jabbing for chi you're gimping yourself. Unless you're using SCK efficiently. On Elegon there is time before adds explode to generate chi via expel harm and renewing mist, so you don't need to there.
    Fist weaving as keeping up serpents zeal isn't that good even in theory it barely outheals a chi burst with 100% uptime in boss.
    Fist weaving As generating chi via jab is simply better than generating from range. Period. If you refuse to do it, you're just playing badly. Jabx2/uplift AoE healing destroys soothing mist/uplift. SCKx2/uplift is 10-15% better hps and very slightly more mana efficiency current. Atleast in my crit stacking gear, which I prefer for burst healing.
    I've yet to find a monk outheal me, even on WoL, except when I am healing with another good monk and/or when I didn't use revival twice. My name is Astraios if you want to look me up in logs. Accent on the a so good luck armorying me to laugh at my crit stacking. (Alt 134).
    you should really calm down gnorrior,

    i have seen multiple posts of you on the forums and never are they actually any good they are just about look at how awsome i think i am and i am going to tell you the god way of healing. as mentioned by JRule you criticise her/him for doing 23k hps while you looked at the wrong report. but then say yourself nobody out heals you on WoL but as JRule also stated she/he outhealed you on your kill last week.

    try to refrain from the i am god mode perspective that you give in every single post saying that people play badly if they do not do exactly what you say.
    as explained in detail in my previous post both fistweaving and ranged healing are both viable. yes fistweaving does dps but if your dps in good enough then that dps is not needed. so you can play what you like and not get forced into something you do not like playing.

    me personally i don't like fistweaving much but i will sometimes do it depending on the encounter like garajal where it can be very handy especially in my raid where the dps was slacking to get a first kill. but it is in no means mandatory to fistweave or even generate chi with jabs instead of soothing.
    is jab better then soothing yes and no there has been a math equation done in another topic that actually shows that soothing mist is higher healing per mana then a jab and also higher healing per second. but you get the rng part of chi generation. so for a sure way to get chi jab is better. as far as mana effeciency goes it is not so there is a way and a explanation to use both it just all depends on the prefference of the players. ive seen movies of affiniti of Bloodlegion one of the best healer monks out there not using fistweaving at all during the encounter. like elegon 25m hc he basically never uses jab to generate chi. and they still managed to get 6/6HC so it is not mandatory to use jab for chi generation if you can manage with soothing mist then its fine. if you start lacking chi to use uplift for aoe dmg situations and people are dying cause of it then people could consider using jabs.

    but as said before try to be constructive in your comments instead of acting like you are god and know everything there is to know about monks and your way is the only way. while the evidence supports otherwise.

  15. #35
    I can fist weave in 5 mans and 25 mans, but 10 mans require too much of me to count on other healers keeping up the tanks.

  16. #36
    Pit Lord Alltat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zxzas View Post
    You're a terrible healer if you dont "fist weave". You certainly don't generate enough chi through any other means.
    Yes, no, maybe. There are two general approaches to that:
    1. High spirit. Jab a lot to generate chi. Costs a lot of mana but gets a lot of chi spenders.
    2. Low spirit. Can't afford to jab much and as a consequence can't cast chi spenders as often, but compensates by having much stronger base heals (RwM in particular).

    You'll find both approaches represented in top 50 logs on WoL, with the #1 logs mostly using Jab only very sparsely. Personally I prefer the low spirit approach, as it gives you more "oomph" when needed. I can understand why a lot of people would find it boring, though.
    Diplomacy is just war by other means.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Alltat View Post
    Yes, no, maybe. There are two general approaches to that:
    1. High spirit. Jab a lot to generate chi. Costs a lot of mana but gets a lot of chi spenders.
    2. Low spirit. Can't afford to jab much and as a consequence can't cast chi spenders as often, but compensates by having much stronger base heals (RwM in particular).

    You'll find both approaches represented in top 50 logs on WoL, with the #1 logs mostly using Jab only very sparsely. Personally I prefer the low spirit approach, as it gives you more "oomph" when needed. I can understand why a lot of people would find it boring, though.
    It's not that I find it boring, but I find it to be an unreliable source of Chi. I tend to fistweave on any fights that I can, and ranged heal on fights where fistweaving is either difficult or doesn't make sense.

  18. #38
    Pit Lord Alltat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JRule View Post
    It's not that I find it boring, but I find it to be an unreliable source of Chi. I tend to fistweave on any fights that I can, and ranged heal on fights where fistweaving is either difficult or doesn't make sense.
    Ranged spells are unreliable in terms of chi generation, yes. The 5.1 changes to Soothing Mist should help somewhat, but Jab will still be the most reliable way to generate chi. It's also a very expensive way to generate chi, and arguably not worth it unless you're building chi for something special (like filling up right before predictable spike damage).

    Honestly, I'm rather confused about what the design intent of Jab for mistweavers actually is. Right now it's an expensive way to "buy" chi, but it doesn't feel like a niche that really fits into the play style. I can't say that I really like how fistweaving works, but that might just be me.
    Diplomacy is just war by other means.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by JRule View Post
    You're looking at the "Full Report," not the log for the fight. On the fight she had 36305 effective HPS, not 23k, which is high enough to rank. I would say that she's not doing bad. On the note of Resto Druids, they're actually logging a little bit better than monks on Will of the Emperor for 10N. She only uses Surging Mists 3 times in her fight, but yes, it's an awful way to generate chi. She actually outhealed you on your last week's kill. For being 365 equipped ilevel I think she did pretty well other than not using Mana Tea nearly enough.

    On subject, I'm a fan of fistweaving, mainly because how iffy chi can be for Soothing Mists. the 35% chi gain might make this a little better in 5.1. I also prefer crit stacking, but that might all change in 5.1 as well with the buffs to Gift of the Serpent. On 10 man SCK can be a little more difficult to use, as there aren't as many people stacked into a tight area. Wha t is the minimum # of people you want in range of your SCK for it to be viable healing (HPS and HPM)?
    I admit my mistake, it is indeed 36.3k effective healing.
    And I sure as heck hope she beat me, my raid was six healing a boss which is primarily tank damage, and I'm a raid healer. I have two paladins to tank heal.
    Her raid is two healing a fight, which means she'll have to help tank heal.
    As well, I was healing with another monk which means a large portion of the AoE is going to be eaten by him as well. Will on normal is not a fight to judge healing on, especially for monks. (And my paladins are very good at absorbing healing on fights like Will.)
    The real power of monks is in their raid healing throughput. If you want an example you can check the same logs of my monk Astråios for elegon, feng, etc. I am almost AFK'ing for our Will kills, not going to lie, it's a joke to heal. My paladins make tank healing a joke, and then once every few minutes I heal gas. I've started learning the dance for funsies.
    PS: Logs for most farm content are normally not very reliable, and trying to compare 10 vs 25 is equally as unreliable.

    On topic, "fist weaving" as generating chi via jab instead of soothing mist, is required to optimally play a monk, no ifs ands or buts. I was sustaining 130k for 6 minutes on garalon yesterday, you will be unable to do that with soothing mist (chi gen too slow). (I run 7500 spirit and can sustain almost constant throughput for 6 minutes w/ a single extra mana tide.)
    A fight like elegon it's possible to use soothing mist for chi gen, but still its too unreliable for me.

    Also to all these people talking, at the moment jab is effectively 6k mana per chi (including mana tea returns) and soothing mist is 9k mana per chi (including mana tea returns). That means jab is more reliable, faster, and more efficient than soothing mist. There's literally no reason to use soothing mist.

    As for stat weights, I run 7500 spirit and the rest into crit. Mastery sucks for throughput, flat out. Haste is worthless. Literally worthless.
    So by that, int > crit ~ spirit >>> mastery >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> haste.
    PS: At my specific gear set, uplift and chi burst scale around twice as well with crit as mastery, and RnM scales 10% better with crit than mastery. This is assuming no overheal for both. There's no way mastery overtakes crit for my normal jab/RnM/Uplift healing breakdown. Only if you spam SCKx2/Chi Burst would it be superior. And even then, that's assuming no overheal. (After every pull where we stack for SCK/chi burst (where its effective) I see literally 30+ orbs, meaning mastery is almost worthless in the few places its even effective.)

    Also, you guys should be generating chi with a priority system of
    RnM > Expel Harm > Jab. In that order. RnM because it should be used on CD as its the highest HPM/HPSc we have, and expel harm because it's the cheapest mana/chi spell we have. (On elegon I mostly just afk until adds explode, using RnM/EH on CD for chi, TFT before add explosion, uplift x2, chi brew as well.)
    If you want to Enveloping mist the tanks, you should build 3 chi using said priority, and then cast soothing to make it instant, then back to jabbing for chi etc.

    Also, chi brew is around 48k mana. 4 chi at each chi costing 9k mana/chi to build, which is 36k, then the 12k mana returns. I would be jabbing for that chi if I weren't using chi brew, so thats an effective 48k mana from chi brew. Using it ASAP on CD while still benefiting from it's use is HUGE. It's the difference between me OOM'ing on gara at the 3-4 minute mark, and me making it to hard enrage until I run dry. I definitely notice the difference between when I "save it for throughput" and when I use it nearly on CD (its nearly 2500 mp5 under this weighting system). It just means I change around my CD rotation so I can use Chi Brew as much as possible when burst healing is required.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Alltat View Post
    Ranged spells are unreliable in terms of chi generation, yes. The 5.1 changes to Soothing Mist should help somewhat, but Jab will still be the most reliable way to generate chi. It's also a very expensive way to generate chi, and arguably not worth it unless you're building chi for something special (like filling up right before predictable spike damage).

    Honestly, I'm rather confused about what the design intent of Jab for mistweavers actually is. Right now it's an expensive way to "buy" chi, but it doesn't feel like a niche that really fits into the play style. I can't say that I really like how fistweaving works, but that might just be me.
    It's not as expensive as it might seem once you factor in Serpent's Zeal healing. That's a substantial amount of free healing, and any analysis of fistweaving that doesn't include it will absolutely show that it's underperforming.

    Also, as of the current live build, Jab is better chi-per-mana than Soothing Mist, so I'm not sure why you think it's expensive at all. That will change in 5.1, as Soothing Mist is gaining efficiency buffs in two areas, mana cost and chi generation.

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