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  1. #41
    @ Dreyo jab is indeed less mana per chi but it is alsoless healing per mana and healing per second then soothing mist. although it will give more chi per mana spend.
    and also serpent zeal should not be counted towards jab at all it should if you compare fistweaving as a whole to ranged healing but in a jab for chi or soothing mist for chi or a jab versus soothing mist in general Serpen't zeal has no place. jab itself is no auto attack and will not generate serpent zeal healing.

    on the topic of fistweaving it indeed needs to be included because even afking and auto atacking with keeping serpent's zeal up is indeed a lot of healing.

    @ gnorrior i do think your 7.5k spirit works cause you are in a 25 man guild where you normally run with atleast a shaman and a priest or maybe even 2 shamsn or priests which can provide raid wide mana returns. in my 10 man we run with a druid paladin and me monk healer. it won't cut it for me to have 7.5k spirit even with only using jab when needed and using ReM and Expel harm as main chi generators i still go oom on some fights

    on the topic of saying "fist weaving" as generating chi via jab instead of soothing mist, is required to optimally play a monk, no ifs ands or buts" makes me feel like you think there is only 1 way to play monk. it has ben proven both in videos as well as in WoL logs that it is in no means necessary to generate chi with jabs to get high HPS. also having super high HPS does not mean that automatically you are a good healer. there are monks like affiniti from blood legion that i mentioned a couple of times already that heals 25 m elegon HC without using jab much at all and still tops the healing meters and has no mana problems. seeing as they are 6/6 HC world 2nd 25 man team to kill will and where world first on elegon HC 25 man it leads me to believe there are multiple ways to play a monk effectively.

    also in theory firstweaving outperforms ranged healing based on the math and also the extra dps it brings. but in some fights i might mean you put yourself as a healer in sticky situations or situations where you will get more dmg which means you need more healing. so in those cases fistweaving does not become viable and you will have to fall back on the in teory less effective way of healing but in that case is the better of the 2.

    please just stop saying there is only 1 way to effectively heal as a monk which is just not true. as has been proven multiple times.

  2. #42
    I healend 10man with a bad paladin cohealer with 7k spirit and it wasn't much of a problem as long as our jobs were clear. It all depends on clever usage of spells when you stack Throughput. Of course things vary from group to group but it is entirely possible. Depends on your own performance and specc of course.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Imbamouse View Post
    @ Dreyo jab is indeed less mana per chi but it is alsoless healing per mana and healing per second then soothing mist. although it will give more chi per mana spend.
    and also serpent zeal should not be counted towards jab at all it should if you compare fistweaving as a whole to ranged healing but in a jab for chi or soothing mist for chi or a jab versus soothing mist in general Serpen't zeal has no place. jab itself is no auto attack and will not generate serpent zeal healing.

    on the topic of fistweaving it indeed needs to be included because even afking and auto atacking with keeping serpent's zeal up is indeed a lot of healing.
    I am guessing he meant eminence.

    Eminence
    100 yd range
    Instant
    When the Monk deals non-autoattack damage, he will heal the lowest health nearby target within 20 yards equal to 50% of the damage done.


    Eminence (Statue)
    100 yd range
    Instant
    When the Monk deals non-autoattack damage, the summoned Jade Serpent Statue will heal the lowest health nearby target within 20 yards equal to 50% of the damage done.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by gnorrior View Post
    I admit my mistake, it is indeed 36.3k effective healing.
    And I sure as heck hope she beat me, my raid was six healing a boss which is primarily tank damage, and I'm a raid healer. I have two paladins to tank heal.
    Her raid is two healing a fight, which means she'll have to help tank heal.
    As well, I was healing with another monk which means a large portion of the AoE is going to be eaten by him as well. Will on normal is not a fight to judge healing on, especially for monks. (And my paladins are very good at absorbing healing on fights like Will.)
    The real power of monks is in their raid healing throughput. If you want an example you can check the same logs of my monk Astråios for elegon, feng, etc. I am almost AFK'ing for our Will kills, not going to lie, it's a joke to heal. My paladins make tank healing a joke, and then once every few minutes I heal gas. I've started learning the dance for funsies.
    PS: Logs for most farm content are normally not very reliable, and trying to compare 10 vs 25 is equally as unreliable.

    On topic, "fist weaving" as generating chi via jab instead of soothing mist, is required to optimally play a monk, no ifs ands or buts. I was sustaining 130k for 6 minutes on garalon yesterday, you will be unable to do that with soothing mist (chi gen too slow). (I run 7500 spirit and can sustain almost constant throughput for 6 minutes w/ a single extra mana tide.)
    A fight like elegon it's possible to use soothing mist for chi gen, but still its too unreliable for me.

    Also to all these people talking, at the moment jab is effectively 6k mana per chi (including mana tea returns) and soothing mist is 9k mana per chi (including mana tea returns). That means jab is more reliable, faster, and more efficient than soothing mist. There's literally no reason to use soothing mist.

    As for stat weights, I run 7500 spirit and the rest into crit. Mastery sucks for throughput, flat out. Haste is worthless. Literally worthless.
    So by that, int > crit ~ spirit >>> mastery >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> haste.
    PS: At my specific gear set, uplift and chi burst scale around twice as well with crit as mastery, and RnM scales 10% better with crit than mastery. This is assuming no overheal for both. There's no way mastery overtakes crit for my normal jab/RnM/Uplift healing breakdown. Only if you spam SCKx2/Chi Burst would it be superior. And even then, that's assuming no overheal. (After every pull where we stack for SCK/chi burst (where its effective) I see literally 30+ orbs, meaning mastery is almost worthless in the few places its even effective.)

    Also, you guys should be generating chi with a priority system of
    RnM > Expel Harm > Jab. In that order. RnM because it should be used on CD as its the highest HPM/HPSc we have, and expel harm because it's the cheapest mana/chi spell we have. (On elegon I mostly just afk until adds explode, using RnM/EH on CD for chi, TFT before add explosion, uplift x2, chi brew as well.)
    If you want to Enveloping mist the tanks, you should build 3 chi using said priority, and then cast soothing to make it instant, then back to jabbing for chi etc.

    Also, chi brew is around 48k mana. 4 chi at each chi costing 9k mana/chi to build, which is 36k, then the 12k mana returns. I would be jabbing for that chi if I weren't using chi brew, so thats an effective 48k mana from chi brew. Using it ASAP on CD while still benefiting from it's use is HUGE. It's the difference between me OOM'ing on gara at the 3-4 minute mark, and me making it to hard enrage until I run dry. I definitely notice the difference between when I "save it for throughput" and when I use it nearly on CD (its nearly 2500 mp5 under this weighting system). It just means I change around my CD rotation so I can use Chi Brew as much as possible when burst healing is required.

    Actually haste does have value to us. You need to be hitting your ~1350 mark in order to reach the first breakpoint for renewing mists (that extra tick), with the changes to Ascension in the next patch I'd imagine we'll either be able to reach the second breakpoint with a little additional reforging or we won't need to do any reforging in order to reach the first breakpoint (I haven't done any of the math tbh). Your stat priority should look like this:
    Spirit > int > Haste (~1350) > Crit > Mastery > Haste (<1350). Yes spirit is valued higher this tier, at least until we get better gear. You yourself admit you have mana issues, I on the other hand do not and I'm pushing out more healing because I've more responsibilities than you (tank + raid), this goes for all fights. Anyways, who said that was farm content for me? That was only our second kill which doesn't make it farm. Also, you're right, you can't really compare 10's to 25's. 25's are a world of difference in ease (they're easier this time around). You said it yourself you're not really doing much except during titan gas phase, I on the other hand can't afford to take a break in healing and regen mana.
    Anyways, I would be keeping up with the 5.1 patch notes and data mining if I were you. Soothing mists seems as though it's going to be way better than jab (making it a clear winner) with the changes it's receiving. (35% chance to generate chi rather than the 25% it currently is and a 0.66% per second channel and initial cast rather than the current 1%). I would imagine from that point (and currently for many of us) that jab would function similarily to Crusader Strike for Hpals. Also, if your raid is stacking up (which in many cases they should be) then as a fistweaver I would be using Chi Burst over Uplift. It offers far more healing and doesn't require renewing mists on the target, which is great for a 25 man seen as it's impossible to have your renewing mists up on all 25 targets at the same time.
    Also, they seem to be experimenting with our mastery. Awhile ago it was datamined that when our healing orbs expire (both from our spell, and from our mastery) without being consumed that they would heal people for a lesser amount (but still enough). I don't remember seeing a blue post for that, but I do remember seeing a blue post (the most recently) in the patch notes stating that they reverted it back to the way it works now. If they didn't revert it back then mastery would have had a much larger value than it does now.
    Mistweavers aren't just raid healers though which it seems as though you believe that (I could be reading into your post wrong but that's the message I got). We're also very strong healers that compete with Hpals. I think that the only reason an Hpal would be us on tank healing is due to their mastery. Soothing mists currently isn't too terribly strong but it'll be getting buffed soon enough, not to mention once we get our 2pc bonuses we can actually afford to use surging mists more often. But I find enveloping mists to be much stronger than surging mists, AND its definitely more cost efficient. the amount of healing that it does (either through the buff it gives surging mists or by the HoT itself) is ridiculous!

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Imbamouse View Post
    @ Dreyo jab is indeed less mana per chi but it is alsoless healing per mana and healing per second then soothing mist. although it will give more chi per mana spend.
    and also serpent zeal should not be counted towards jab at all it should if you compare fistweaving as a whole to ranged healing but in a jab for chi or soothing mist for chi or a jab versus soothing mist in general Serpen't zeal has no place. jab itself is no auto attack and will not generate serpent zeal healing.

    on the topic of fistweaving it indeed needs to be included because even afking and auto atacking with keeping serpent's zeal up is indeed a lot of healing.

    @ gnorrior i do think your 7.5k spirit works cause you are in a 25 man guild where you normally run with atleast a shaman and a priest or maybe even 2 shamsn or priests which can provide raid wide mana returns. in my 10 man we run with a druid paladin and me monk healer. it won't cut it for me to have 7.5k spirit even with only using jab when needed and using ReM and Expel harm as main chi generators i still go oom on some fights

    on the topic of saying "fist weaving" as generating chi via jab instead of soothing mist, is required to optimally play a monk, no ifs ands or buts" makes me feel like you think there is only 1 way to play monk. it has ben proven both in videos as well as in WoL logs that it is in no means necessary to generate chi with jabs to get high HPS. also having super high HPS does not mean that automatically you are a good healer. there are monks like affiniti from blood legion that i mentioned a couple of times already that heals 25 m elegon HC without using jab much at all and still tops the healing meters and has no mana problems. seeing as they are 6/6 HC world 2nd 25 man team to kill will and where world first on elegon HC 25 man it leads me to believe there are multiple ways to play a monk effectively.

    also in theory firstweaving outperforms ranged healing based on the math and also the extra dps it brings. but in some fights i might mean you put yourself as a healer in sticky situations or situations where you will get more dmg which means you need more healing. so in those cases fistweaving does not become viable and you will have to fall back on the in teory less effective way of healing but in that case is the better of the 2.

    please just stop saying there is only 1 way to effectively heal as a monk which is just not true. as has been proven multiple times.
    Thing is, soothing mist HPM and HPS is horrible. I get 27k HPS and 7.3 HPM from it by itself. Our real HPM/HPS efficiency and power is in our CHI spells. Using Soothing Mist with uplift nets 75,100HPS, 31.45 HPM. Using jab with uplift nets 137808 HPS and 34.45 HPM in my gear, with RnM on 9 targets. Soothing mist is less efficient in terms of healing per mana and less powerful than jab for generating chi. Because uplift heals SO MUCH more than either soothing or jab. (For a ballpark figure my uplift on 9 targets is 389141 on average, raid buffed.)

    On the same note, serpents zeal is almost universally an HPS/HPM loss (since it uses the same chi as uplift, its an HPM loss if it is an HPS loss). If you are out of auto attack range/channeling on anyone/not attacking for 6 seconds, its equal to an uplift. If you're gone for any more than that, then it's a loss. It's a gain if theres no healing that needs to be done, and youre going to be generating chi anyway (read, expel harm/RnM). But when the raid will get full benefit from your uplift, its almost always better to uplift.

    I end most boss fights with full mana. My priest's hymn of hope almost never hits me for the bonus mana. I get the bonus mana from one rsham. Except half the time we dont have one. Effective healing is key. There will be empty globals on MOST fights. Especially longer ones like elegon and Will.

    I said the optimal way to play a monk. By definition, there is only one optimal. It is "The most efficient, strongest throughput, etc" way of healing. The "Optimal" way of healing. I specifically stated "...to optimally play a monk...". As well, I agree that Affiniti is an amazing healer and when I was starting to learn monk I looked up to him, but you'll notice that he isn't on WoL with top parses either. Lot of that is potentially that he is healing with stronger healers (meaning less HPS for him to take.) But the point stands. Also he's stacking spirit, which if he isnt spamming jab or SCK then I don't understand at all. As a min-maxer, if you end a fight with mana then you wasted potential throughput. I'm in equal iLvl and have almost 3000 more intellect than him, around 5000 less spirit, 1200 more crit rating 500 more mastery and a few haste more. Theres no world in which I value 3000 int < 5000 spirit. Ever. Let alone the bonus to crit/mastery. To each their own, but I disagree with his gearing. It's the style too many healers fall into needlessly. Either way, he's still an amazing healer I agree.

    Backing off affinichi, Elegon is a special case. Almost all damage comes in burst frames, this means you can generate ALMOST all the chi you need from RnM/EH before the burst, and then SCK for extra healing. That being said, I stand on the edge and jab the add for extra chi before he explodes. I don't support going into the middle needlessly. You referencing one specific fight which has mechanics that ALLOWS low jab usage (it should still be used on the orbs that explode, for faster chi gen) is simply cherry-picking your fights in an attempt to talk about the broad mechanics of healing as a monk based on one fight that supports what you want to believe is the easiest/best/whatever. In general, jabbing for chi is simply better. As the numbers above show, it's almost twice as strong in throughput and slightly more efficient. The extra damage is minimal. Using Xuen over chi torpedo will give you more damage numbers than fistweaving instead of mist weaving will, on average. Not to mention actually DPS'ing as a fistweaver is mostly a HPS loss. (Uplift/chi burst > tiger palm/blackout kick).

    I never said you couldnt be effective as a monk without adhering to one strategy. Because the optimal strategy changes on each fight. But in each and every case jabbing for chi is better than soothing mist, and thus if you need additional chi you should use jab on an add or on the boss. Certain fights will change how that becomes more efficient (bonus damage, having to take extra damage to jab if you arent careful, etc.)
    PS: Some fights also benefit from SCK/uplift or SCK/chi burst spam as well. SCK is 20-30k HPS higher, but a HPM decrease (until you hit 18 targets, then SCK is an HPM increase. But the ability to judge whether you have that many is unimportant, since it's HPS will be higher anyway if needed.)

    You can heal with soothing mist. You can never touch jab or melee. But you aren't being optimal. And I specifically said optimal, which means either the most efficient or the strongest. But as a monk, those two conditions are met by the same way of healing. Which is jabx2/chi burst if you can hit 10 targets and only have RnM on 8/9 targets, or jabx2/uplift if you are spread or RnM on >10 targets. In my gear (with some unknown amount of mastery, SCK/chi burst will become more efficient even on low targets, but it will scale slower and than uplift/chiburst/jab with crit, so I go with crit), this is the indisputable case, and there's no arguing that because I'm making these statements using exact numbers for HPS/HPM AND from personal experience.
    If you want numbers for your own gear then go to:
    http://www.temerityofwindrunner.com/...aver/calc.html
    Not sure if it lets me post links, but if not then oh well. That's where I get my numbers, and its pretty obvious that jab>soothing, which my numbers, experience, and all theory proves. The isolated case of elegon (which still allows some usage of jab for optimal healing) does nothing to disprove that.

  6. #46
    My intuition tells me that you get more mana tea procs from fistweaving rather than range healing, is that mathematically true?

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Raybourne View Post
    My intuition tells me that you get more mana tea procs from fistweaving rather than range healing, is that mathematically true?
    Jab = 1 sec per chi
    SCK ~ 2 sec per chi
    SoM ~ 2 sec per chi (I think on average anyways)

  8. #48
    Pit Lord Alltat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raybourne View Post
    My intuition tells me that you get more mana tea procs from fistweaving rather than range healing, is that mathematically true?
    Definitely. Assuming you can actually consume your tea stacks, they need to be taken into account when calculating HPM figures (and HPS, as you'll have to spend a non-trivial amount of time drinking, even glyphed).
    Diplomacy is just war by other means.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyriaa View Post
    Actually haste does have value to us. You need to be hitting your ~1350 mark in order to reach the first breakpoint for renewing mists (that extra tick), with the changes to Ascension in the next patch I'd imagine we'll either be able to reach the second breakpoint with a little additional reforging or we won't need to do any reforging in order to reach the first breakpoint (I haven't done any of the math tbh). Your stat priority should look like this:
    Spirit > int > Haste (~1350) > Crit > Mastery > Haste (<1350). Yes spirit is valued higher this tier, at least until we get better gear. You yourself admit you have mana issues, I on the other hand do not and I'm pushing out more healing because I've more responsibilities than you (tank + raid), this goes for all fights. Anyways, who said that was farm content for me? That was only our second kill which doesn't make it farm. Also, you're right, you can't really compare 10's to 25's. 25's are a world of difference in ease (they're easier this time around). You said it yourself you're not really doing much except during titan gas phase, I on the other hand can't afford to take a break in healing and regen mana.
    Anyways, I would be keeping up with the 5.1 patch notes and data mining if I were you. Soothing mists seems as though it's going to be way better than jab (making it a clear winner) with the changes it's receiving. (35% chance to generate chi rather than the 25% it currently is and a 0.66% per second channel and initial cast rather than the current 1%). I would imagine from that point (and currently for many of us) that jab would function similarily to Crusader Strike for Hpals. Also, if your raid is stacking up (which in many cases they should be) then as a fistweaver I would be using Chi Burst over Uplift. It offers far more healing and doesn't require renewing mists on the target, which is great for a 25 man seen as it's impossible to have your renewing mists up on all 25 targets at the same time.
    Also, they seem to be experimenting with our mastery. Awhile ago it was datamined that when our healing orbs expire (both from our spell, and from our mastery) without being consumed that they would heal people for a lesser amount (but still enough). I don't remember seeing a blue post for that, but I do remember seeing a blue post (the most recently) in the patch notes stating that they reverted it back to the way it works now. If they didn't revert it back then mastery would have had a much larger value than it does now.
    Mistweavers aren't just raid healers though which it seems as though you believe that (I could be reading into your post wrong but that's the message I got). We're also very strong healers that compete with Hpals. I think that the only reason an Hpal would be us on tank healing is due to their mastery. Soothing mists currently isn't too terribly strong but it'll be getting buffed soon enough, not to mention once we get our 2pc bonuses we can actually afford to use surging mists more often. But I find enveloping mists to be much stronger than surging mists, AND its definitely more cost efficient. the amount of healing that it does (either through the buff it gives surging mists or by the HoT itself) is ridiculous!
    Disclaimer: I specifically stated at the end that trying to compare 10/25 mans is ridiculous because it's completely different. But since you ignored that, I'll just respond here anyway.

    You can hit 1350 haste while reforging haste off all your gear unless you are ridiculously lucky with drops. There are two spells which gain benefit from haste, 3 if you include enveloping mists. SCK, RnM, and Enveloping mist. Their HPS/HPM gains per point of haste are ridiculously low comparing to every other stat we have. Even at haste being multiplied to 2.5x, where x is it's current value, haste scales slower in terms of HPS AND HPM. Therefore it's worthless. (Aside from hitting cap. Past cap its actually a detriment due to less ability to uplift those targets because of shorter duration.)
    No. Spirit is not better than intellect. At all. Especially not once you approach somewhere around 8000 spirit the marginal benefit per spirit comparing to the marginal benefit per intellect is HEAVILY weighted towards intellect even accounting for intellect having 50% overhealing and spirit having 20-30% overhealing. (This was a long post I made in my guild forums, where I calculated for how I heal. Your method may be different, and I'm specifically talking about 25s. But I doubt its any different for 10s.) This isn't even taking into consideration that many fights have healing in bursts, where you need X HPS in Y seconds. Having the spirit for an extra jab to fit in an extra spell in Y+2 seconds doesnt matter, because if you didnt meet X HPS in the first place, you're dead. Force and Verve first boss HoF is an example of this kind of situation. This calculation is on a 1 int vs 2 spirit level. At a 1:1 ratio intellect curb stomps spirit. I have mana issues on one fight. And by mana issues I said I went oom at the end. Like, one second before hard enrage I went oom while CHAIN CASTING FOR SIX MINUTES STRAIGHT. At 7500 spirit. And you're going to tell me I need another 5000? That is inane. No other fight have I seen where I had to maintain the same spell selection/global at a longer duration than that. I ocassionally trade 1int for 2 spirit in gems, but mostly to stay around 7500 where I am comfortable and used to it.
    Wasting 4000 stat points to reach the second break point is so incorrect I don't know what else to say. The only reason that would be remotely viable is if Ascension is mandatory, and taking it makes RnM so short that you have to hit the next breakpoint for your RnM to stay on targets longer. I still think chi brew will be better and that ascension will be nerfed, however. Only time will tell on that front, so talking about it is nil. Haste is still worthless. Go check statweights on the MW calc I linked. Haste is 0 benefit to the 3 spells which benefit most of our HPS/HPM, which is RnM and uplift (and jab.) Once you cast the spell RnM will do all of its healing until you get another breakpoint for another tick. If you're doing it properly you wont be overwriting RnM, and so it ending sooner wont matter since it's cooldown limited, not HPS limited. Anything over 1350 is a waste. (I cannot for the life of me get rid of the 200 extra I have. Rage.)
    You're pushing out more healing because you are dropping healers and pushing progression, which means raiders will be less experienced, be taking more damage, meaning more healing for you to push out, not to mention there being less healers (% and composition wise) meaning more for you to do. I never said you were bad, and I don't think you are. I think using soothing mist for chi is suboptimal however.
    Also you think 25s are easier?
    I've dropped to 10s to do fights and we absolutely dominated every fight we dropped for. 25s was significantly tougher to get kills on, let alone the logistics. Theres a reason 10s was the first to get 6/6H world first in MGV. It's easier to get 10 amazing players than 25 amazing players, simple as that. More community feel, etc. I don't dislike 10s, its where I started raiding. But saying that one is easier than the other when they are different raids is ultimately foolish. The challenges in each setting is different. I won't knock on 10m players, except when they try to say that 25s are easier or harder, which i just disagree with.
    Also I'm not sure how damage scales 10/25 but your paladin should be able to nearly solo heal the tanks that fight if damage is half or less, since our pallies are easily solo healing one tank. MW's are amazing at raid healing. Not so amazing at tank healing lol.
    In patch notes soothing mist will generate 1 chi every 3 seconds instead of every 4 (on average) at a cost of 6k mana per chi. This means its remarkably more efficient to use to generate chi during downtime. But still downright horrible for throughput. Jab will put out significantly more throughput while also being reliable. In general, healers hate being unreliable. Soothing Mist is unreliable because its a chance for throughput. The same reason most people hate crit (other than monks) is because its RNG. Its the same thing with our soothing mist. (Whereas crit for us is not so RNG when we are putting out 700 uplifts and 900+ RnM ticks per fight. Sample size changes a lot.) "Well maybe ill get another uplift after six seconds. Or maybe two. Or maybe ten. Oh whoops the tank/raid died. Oh well." So you're left with using surging mist for chi (horrible efficiency, completely outweighing whatever possible gain from soothing mist you had) to be reliable. Meaning jab still wins whenever you need healing "NOW".
    Chi burst is slightly better than uplift when chi burst hits nine targets. Uplift is slightly better when it hits ten targets. When my uplift is hitting 20 targets because of RnM, it dominates chi burst. RnM is also the highest HPM and HPS spell we have in the game, for one global. Assuming it gets to do all its healing. So SCK/chi burst does not beat SCK/RnM/uplift. Especially considering TFT uplift is the strongest healing we have. its like an entire uplift of almost equal strength to chi burst + 1.5~ completely refreshed RnM durations IN ADDITION to making your next uplifts being ridiculously powerful. (in 25s.)
    Datamining shows that they reverted the change to mastery (so now its horrible again), buffed crit (yay buffs to our best stat lolwat?), and buffed haste (250% of a pile of crud is still a pile of crud, its effective HPS/HPM increase to our healing is nil comparing even to mastery, while mastery pales in comparison to crit except for the case mentioned above.)
    In 25s, MW are horrible tank healers. Whenever I put EnvM on a tank, it averages 50-60% overhealing because of our 2 dedicated tank healing paladins. As well, they heal with eternal glory which means that they are the best raid healers for farm content where they can absorb a significant portion of the damage before any healing becomes necessary, meaning I have no possible way to compete with hpallies if raid damage is low. (This is what happened on all of our recent Will kills.) However farm content doesnt really matter, so who cares. MW'ers are gods of AOE throughput. Hpallies are gods of tank healing, with the strongest burst and smoothing between holy power WoG, beacon of light, and their mastery.
    If no one sniped my EnvM then it would be very strong indeed. (By the way, soothing mist bonus from EnvM is about 37k over the total cast as comparing to its sum of 370k when channeling soothing. Or, 10% of EnvM is soothing. Basically nothing. It's easier to just jab/RnM/Eh for 3 chi, put EnvM on tank, repeat to sustain around 55K HPS on a tank. Which is very powerful I agree. But in 25s at least, all its healing is sniped.)

    Overall point that people need to understand is that spirit is not the god stat. Every expansion people freak out about spirit, and it's good. But it isn't "that" good. One spirit gem is 14400 mana over a 6 minute fight, assuming you never mana cap. (Which if you're stacking spirit...) As well, spirit is only any benefit if you are literally oom at the end of the fight. If you have any mana to spare, then that amount of mana converted to spirit is how much stats you're wasting.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-31 at 06:07 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Wushu View Post
    Jab = 1 sec per chi
    SCK ~ 2 sec per chi
    SoM ~ 2 sec per chi (I think on average anyways)
    SoM averages ~ 4 sceonds per chi
    (.25 chance per second, on average 4s per chi.)
    It will average around ~ 3s per chi with next patch buffs.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Wushu View Post
    I am guessing he meant eminence.

    Eminence
    100 yd range
    Instant
    When the Monk deals non-autoattack damage, he will heal the lowest health nearby target within 20 yards equal to 50% of the damage done.


    Eminence (Statue)
    100 yd range
    Instant
    When the Monk deals non-autoattack damage, the summoned Jade Serpent Statue will heal the lowest health nearby target within 20 yards equal to 50% of the damage done.
    No, I meant Serpent's Zeal. While you're jabbing, you're autoattacking, and if you're autoattacking you damn well better have Serpent's Zeal up or you're doing it wrong.

    Eminence healing from Jab is indeed negligible. Jab doesn't do much damage at all, and so its Eminence healing is also small. But my overall point is that comparing Jab's direct healing via Eminence to Soothing Mists, and stating that Soothing Mists is therefore better HPS/HPM, is fundamentally flawed. A better comparison is the total of healing between Jab and Serpent's Zeal autoattacking as compared to Soothing Mists channeling.

    Oh, and as far as Serpent's Zeal versus just chi burst or uplift, that's a question of timing more than anything. The aoe heals are, understandably, best for situations when everyone is taking damage. But that's a big, big if. In situations where smaller numbers of people are taking damage over a long period of time, that 30 seconds of healing via Serpent's Zeal can be more useful than two Chi Bursts would have been at the time when you used the chi, when people may not even have needed it.

    Healing isn't just about raw HPS output. It's about the right healing, at the right time. And mistweavers have a ton of different tools available. The best mistweavers will know which tools to use for which situations, rather than following a simple "best" formula.

    That said, we are absolutely at our best when heavy damage is being dealt to lots of people, which just so happen to be most of the times when fights are the hardest and the raid has the greatest chance of wiping. Having a monk for those times is a significant advantage, and it is important to know what you're doing in those situations because it really is what we're best at.
    Last edited by Dreyo; 2012-10-31 at 06:50 PM.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by gnorrior View Post
    Theres a reason 10s was the first to get 6/6H world first in MGV
    That reason is because it was Paragon, after paragon the next 50 kills were all 25 mans. Out of the first 25 or so kills, only 2 were on ten man.
    As of today, October 31, 2012 at 2:40 PM EST, only ten 10man guilds have fully cleared 6/6Heroic MGV as compared to the fifty two 25 man guilds that have downed the same content. As you know, Cataclysm killed off many 25 man guilds and the majority of raiding guilds are 10 mans, which means a higher percentage of 25 mans are clearing content that ten mans aren't. Please argue with me more.

    As far as your personal mana problems go, lets not forget that you have far more resources than a ten man would, such as other healers carrying you and more mana cds (Hymn, Mana tide, etc).

    Anyways, you can continue believing that you're perfect and jab all you want, I'm going to continue being awesome and doing my thing. Every one of your posts have been very condescending and I'm done with it.

  12. #52
    Gnorrior : no one said they would be using sm when they needed burst NOW. You stated several times in your condescending way that we are raid healers. So people obviously use SCK and chi burst if they want burst NOW. You seem to neglect that fact in your rant about how much more awesome you are than everyone else. This assumes of course that you are not jabbing for chi and spending chi on uplift since you oppose traditional healing.
    Last edited by lauryn; 2012-10-31 at 07:01 PM.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyriaa View Post
    That reason is because it was Paragon, after paragon the next 50 kills were all 25 mans. Out of the first 25 or so kills, only 2 were on ten man.
    As of today, October 31, 2012 at 2:40 PM EST, only ten 10man guilds have fully cleared 6/6Heroic MGV as compared to the fifty two 25 man guilds that have downed the same content. As you know, Cataclysm killed off many 25 man guilds and the majority of raiding guilds are 10 mans, which means a higher percentage of 25 mans are clearing content that ten mans aren't. Please argue with me more.

    As far as your personal mana problems go, lets not forget that you have far more resources than a ten man would, such as other healers carrying you and more mana cds (Hymn, Mana tide, etc).

    Anyways, you can continue believing that you're perfect and jab all you want, I'm going to continue being awesome and doing my thing. Every one of your posts have been very condescending and I'm done with it.
    Interesting, so do you think the 10s are actually harder, or the best hardcore guilds are 25 mans?

  14. #54
    The best bleeding edge guilds are 25 mans, except Paragon. This has less to do with how hard 10/25 are and more to do with 25s being the traditional form bleeding-edge guilds have taken. Paragon is a real, true break from tradition. The first of many, in my opinion, but the inertia present in that process should not be taken to indicate that 25m is somehow better/easier for the top-of-the-top raiding guilds.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Wushu View Post
    Interesting, so do you think the 10s are actually harder, or the best hardcore guilds are 25 mans?
    I would say it's harder to find a many people that are good enough that speak finnish nowadays

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreyo View Post
    The best bleeding edge guilds are 25 mans, except Paragon. This has less to do with how hard 10/25 are and more to do with 25s being the traditional form bleeding-edge guilds have taken. Paragon is a real, true break from tradition. The first of many, in my opinion, but the inertia present in that process should not be taken to indicate that 25m is somehow better/easier for the top-of-the-top raiding guilds.
    I could buy that, but wouldn't these guys be attempting the 10 man after they finish the 25?

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Wushu View Post
    Interesting, so do you think the 10s are actually harder, or the best hardcore guilds are 25 mans?
    If you want my honest opinion (and lets not turn this into a 10v25 thread, but since you asked I will give my opinion)
    I believe that the only thing that makes 25 mans harder in any given scenario than ten man is that there are more people to coordinate in a 25 man.
    In raids, rooms don't get bigger between difficulties so with more people there's less room to work with, this makes very specific fights much more difficult on 25 man. H Al'akir (before they fixed the lightning, afterwards 10 man became harder due to it never receiving any attention until 1-2 months before Firelands), H BQL, and I would imagine first boss in HoF, the Attenuation phases would be more difficult as well. HOWEVER, 25 mans also have far more resources available to them and group comp doesn't really matter. My personal ten man has had some trouble due to group comp in the past, until recently we had 8 Vanq token users and 2 conq token, so gearing up was a little bit of an issue, whereas this problem would be as apparent in a 25 man. The lack of a mana tide totem or a mana hymn is far more greater in a ten man than it is in a 25 man. I see no reason as to why a 25 man wouldn't have at least one major mana cd, not to mention they have far more raid wide CDs than a ten man would. I don't feel blizzard has been doing a good job of tuning the amount of damage going out between the two difficulties either, but this can also be a case of ten mans having less available resources than a 25 man.
    The biggest issues with a 25 man is that they have 25 people in them. That's it.
    With good leadership and coordination between officers, 25 mans aren't that difficult in comparison, personal responsibility is there but it's not nearly as high as it is on 10 man. (If you suck and die, that doesn't mean you wipe in 25 man. In many cases it's a wipe in 10 man). And where all else fails, there's plenty of raid cds to be used in a 25 man, but only a very limited amount in a ten man.

    That's my opinion, and yes I have been doing both 10 and 25 mans since Wrath, I haven't done any this patch.

  18. #58
    What for? The race is over once they've beaten it at 25. They have more incentive to continue their guild structure as is, rather than give 15 members the boot. The top of the top guilds have much less trouble than the typical 25-man at fielding an effective raiding roster. As was mentioned, Paragon's move to 10s had more to due with language than with logistics.

    The inertia of 25s at the top of the top will mean change will be very slow for them. The "death of 25s" hand-wringing is most prominent among the semi-hardcore raid guilds, the ones that might get server firsts but not world firsts. Those are the ones that are having real logistical challenges, yet still care a lot about those server firsts. The closer you are to the top, the less those challenges impact your raid. The weaker a 25-man group you have, the more likely it is to disintegrate. The server-third guilds are the ones that are in real trouble.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wushu View Post
    Interesting, so do you think the 10s are actually harder, or the best hardcore guilds are 25 mans?
    More room for min/maxing and cooldown coordination in 25 man. There's only so much you can do to optimize a 10 man raid. For most guilds, it's not going to make much difference, but at the very top end it matters. You can't really chain raid cooldowns in a 10 man, for example.
    Diplomacy is just war by other means.

  20. #60
    @ gnorrior

    you make a couple of real mistakes in your post that make your comparison of uplift flawed.
    ofc if you can get uplift on 10 + people and you jab jab uplift immediatly its gonna do a lot of healing but also a lot of overhealing if 6 orso of those people have not taken dmg. also in a 10man raid if i keep using it on cd i can get it to spread to max 8 people but only for 0.1 sec or so. only with tft will i ever be able to get it on more then 8 so realisticly i will onlyt be able to keep it and use uplift on 7 people in best case scenario making uplift already weaker. but back to the point yes jab is faster chi then soothing but you don't always need faster chi in situations where you don't need to immediatly uplift so in those cases soothing mist is higher hpm and hps then jab and therefore the more effecient way.

    saying you have 7500k spirit and not go oom does not help anybody cause i for instance are running with 10k+ spirit and i still go oom on some fights. could be my raid is taking more dmg or other healers are slacking but doesn't take away from the fact that for me spirit comes before intel at this point cause with 7.5k spirit i will go oom way to fast. i am in ilvl 471 gear so naturally i am lacking a lot of intel that you already have and a lot of base spirit from the higher ilvl gear you and other top parse healers have. same goes for extra secondary stats like crit.

    also you are stating like affiniti is not in the top parses. but being in the top parses does not automatically make you a better healer then somebody that is not in the parses. it just depends on the raid you are in and what role you got and how good the raid itself is. if a full 25 man raid avoids all dmg that can be avoided versus a raid that does not the healer in the second raid will always have a chance at more healing. also Bloodlegion actually did not upload any parses on World of logs except some alt stuff on 25 normal so you don't even know if he would be in the parses.

    but as many people already have said you should try and stop being so condescending towards everybody.

    but y im done said everything i wanted to say in this topic.
    Last edited by Imbamouse; 2012-10-31 at 11:28 PM.

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