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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Nonfictionless View Post
    I don't know of a single one that is not using the Light to decidedly help others. Even the Scarlets have a absolute belief that what they are doing is for the betterment of the world. Without that mindset they would think they are doing something against the Light and it would fail them.
    The Scarlets are definitely not using it to help others, even if they wholeheartedly think they are. The fact that the Light continues to serve them only goes to show that it isn't a divine power of pure good, it's simply another way to attain power that's gained through specific forms of conviction.

    But let's just say that he doesn't follow the teachings of the Cult. Why would he seek the Shadow? No doubt like other Draenei he was a devote follower of the Light? The Shadow doesn't heal. It is a very specific in the fact that it is a type of magic meant to hurt, but it isn't strong against their (Draenei) main foe, the Legion. You would really need to define his goal for taking up the Shadow for this conversation to go further.
    I haven't seen anything that says the Shadow is specifically "meant to hurt". Just because it does not heal doesn't mean it only has harmful applications. The Shadow isn't really any more specific than Fire or Ice arcane magic. Fire can be used to burn a man, ice to freeze him, but both also have practical, very peaceful uses. We typically only see the martial ones due to the nature of the gameplay. Shadow deals heavily with death, yes, but that can simply being a sort of spirit guide for those who linger in death or using magic to hide allies and innocents from their enemies.

    Logical for a member of a race so devoted to stopping the Legion to take up a magic so close to Fel? No. I could see you making an argument for learning about it, but actually using it? Not a chance. Like I said you really would need to define what his purpose for taking up the Shadow would be.
    This gets into a whole new argument. It's -very- logical for a race devoted to stopping the Legion to take up the Fel, or a magic close to it. How can they expect to truly defeat the Legion without an intimate understanding of what they're really going up against? And what better way for a race such as Orcs, that have been enslaved by the Legion, to get back at them than to enslave the demons themselves?

    But the Shadow doesn't seem to be any closer to Fel than, say, Fire arcane magic is. To more directly answer your question, the necessary balance between the Light and Shadow has been stressed all throughout. Is it really that difficult to picture someone who tries to straddle that line, to embody that balance? Someone whose devotion to the Light calls them to understand it in all of it's facets, even when there is a void? Yes, a Naaru falling totally into the void is a "catastrophic loss", but that's not what we're talking about here. That's more akin to a Mage joining the Shadow Council. It's a possible result, but not the only one.

  2. #22
    Role-player Nonfictionless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LostAlgorithm View Post
    The Scarlets are definitely not using it to help others, even if they wholeheartedly think they are. The fact that the Light continues to serve them only goes to show that it isn't a divine power of pure good, it's simply another way to attain power that's gained through specific forms of conviction.
    Actually that is what the Light is. Good though does not have the same definition for everyone though. While they go about it the wrong, way most of the Alliance would agree that the Scarlet's main goal, wiping out the Forsaken, is a Good thing. However to a Forsaken they obviously would disagree. They didn't choose this un-death but they certainly don't want to just lay back down and die all over again.

    However it is a fact that un-death goes against the nature of the world. The Shadow corrupts this and allows them to live, hence why the Light hurts them so bad. So even though the Scarlets are not the traditional sense of the word Good, in the eyes of the Light they are still fighting the Shadow which is part of the Light's purpose. The Forsaken pollute and destroy any land they occupy. They are a plague just as their weapons and just as the actual plague they were born from. (Personally I like the Forsaken though) So while you may say they are not using it to help others, you are wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by LostAlgorithm View Post
    I haven't seen anything that says the Shadow is specifically "meant to hurt". Just because it does not heal doesn't mean it only has harmful applications. The Shadow isn't really any more specific than Fire or Ice arcane magic. Fire can be used to burn a man, ice to freeze him, but both also have practical, very peaceful uses. We typically only see the martial ones due to the nature of the gameplay. Shadow deals heavily with death, yes, but that can simply being a sort of spirit guide for those who linger in death or using magic to hide allies and innocents from their enemies.
    Unfortunately in-game mechanics are a huge part of what we rely on. Shadow is actually much more vague than Fire and Ice as those are just sub-schools of Arcane. The fact that we have so little, and really only the Cult for information, is why these are the only conclusions we can really draw and not go far outside lore.

    Quote Originally Posted by LostAlgorithm View Post
    This gets into a whole new argument. It's -very- logical for a race devoted to stopping the Legion to take up the Fel, or a magic close to it. How can they expect to truly defeat the Legion without an intimate understanding of what they're really going up against? And what better way for a race such as Orcs, that have been enslaved by the Legion, to get back at them than to enslave the demons themselves?
    Logical to understand it yes, but use it? Again no. This isn't my opinion this is lore. This is how the Draenei act and it is evident everywhere. They do not like evil. Their whole existence now is devoted to seeking it out and destroying it. So again I can tell you that you can do this but you will be an outcast. No Draenei will want anything to do with you. They will see you as a betrayer akin to the Man'ari.

    Quote Originally Posted by LostAlgorithm View Post
    But the Shadow doesn't seem to be any closer to Fel than, say, Fire arcane magic is. To more directly answer your question, the necessary balance between the Light and Shadow has been stressed all throughout.
    Fire is Arcane. Fel is dark/corrupted Arcane. And Shadow and Arcane are intertwined in the fabric of Azeroth. They are quite close.

    Quote Originally Posted by LostAlgorithm View Post
    Is it really that difficult to picture someone who tries to straddle that line, to embody that balance? Someone whose devotion to the Light calls them to understand it in all of it's facets, even when there is a void? Yes, a Naaru falling totally into the void is a "catastrophic loss", but that's not what we're talking about here. That's more akin to a Mage joining the Shadow Council. It's a possible result, but not the only one.
    No not at all. As I have said it is do-able, just I don't see your personal reasoning for doing so. And I put that quote there mainly for emphasis on what the Shadow (void) means to a creature of pure Light.

  3. #23
    Scarab Lord ViridianWRA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leaks View Post
    There's no lore for a Draenei Shadow priest
    The Auchenai.

  4. #24
    The Scarlets are definitely not using it to help others, even if they wholeheartedly think they are. The fact that the Light continues to serve them only goes to show that it isn't a divine power of pure good, it's simply another way to attain power that's gained through specific forms of conviction.
    The Light is a philosophy and can be worshiped as a deity (humans in Wc1, Tauren, Scarlet Onslaught) but really to hold on to the power the light can give you need willpower and belief, if you believe you are doing the world good and have the willpower in the belief you can summon on the power of the light, and even then some people can force the light to work with them by using their sheer willpower (Sir Zeliek) or with other forms of magic such as siphoning it from another being (belfs before the sunwell).
    Other magics that work with willpower are Shadow (pretty much the same coin different side when compared to the light, also to influnce others like mind control), Necromancy (using will to bend shadow and control undead), Warlocks (Shadow, and controlling Demons).
    http://www.wowpedia.org/Light
    http://www.wowpedia.org/Shadow_(religion)
    http://www.wowpedia.org/The_Diary_of...neral_Abbendis
    http://www.wowpedia.org/Zeliek
    Without spoiling too much, we can tell you that wielding the Light is a matter of having willpower or faith in one's own ability to do it. That's why there are evil paladins (for example, the Scarlet Crusade and Arthas before he took up Frostmourne). For the undead (and Forsaken), this requires such a great deal of willpower that it is exceedingly rare, especially since it is self-destructive. When undead channel the Light, it feels (to them) as if their entire bodies are being consumed in righteous fire. Forsaken healed by the Light (whether the healer is Forsaken or not) are effectively cauterized by the effect: sure, the wound is healed, but the healing effect is cripplingly painful. Thus, Forsaken priests are beings of unwavering willpower; Forsaken (and death knight) tanks suffer nobly when they have priest and paladin healers in the group; and Sir Zeliek REALLY hates himself.
    So when the light "leaves" someone it doesn't mean the light itself said screw you (not an intelligent being but a philosophy!), its because said person didn't have enough willpower or belief or a combination of both.
    Last edited by Landin55; 2012-10-28 at 06:34 AM.
    "I just wanted them to hand us our award! But they were just talk!, talk!, talk!......" - Wrathion

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by LostAlgorithm View Post
    The Scarlets are definitely not using it to help others, even if they wholeheartedly think they are. The fact that the Light continues to serve them only goes to show that it isn't a divine power of pure good, it's simply another way to attain power that's gained through specific forms of conviction.
    In their eyes, they fight the Undead and non-believers of the Light so that others do not have to, and that is how they help them.

    Really, what allows a wielder of the Light to use it is the belief that what they are doing is right and good. Doubt is what makes a wielder of the Light's power to falter and fade.

    Quote Originally Posted by LostAlgorithm View Post
    I haven't seen anything that says the Shadow is specifically "meant to hurt". Just because it does not heal doesn't mean it only has harmful applications. The Shadow isn't really any more specific than Fire or Ice arcane magic. Fire can be used to burn a man, ice to freeze him, but both also have practical, very peaceful uses. We typically only see the martial ones due to the nature of the gameplay. Shadow deals heavily with death, yes, but that can simply being a sort of spirit guide for those who linger in death or using magic to hide allies and innocents from their enemies.
    Shadow magic has no positive uses. Being the opposite of holy magic, which is primarily used to heal and to smite evil, it is only logical that shadow magic is used to destroy and to maim good. In terms of Unholy magic, which is an offshoot of shadow magic, it can heal the undead, but a draenei is hardly likely to do this, all things considered.

    Quote Originally Posted by LostAlgorithm View Post
    This gets into a whole new argument. It's -very- logical for a race devoted to stopping the Legion to take up the Fel, or a magic close to it. How can they expect to truly defeat the Legion without an intimate understanding of what they're really going up against? And what better way for a race such as Orcs, that have been enslaved by the Legion, to get back at them than to enslave the demons themselves?
    Understanding fel magic is completely separate from WIELDING it. The draenei, who arguably know more about fel magic than any other race on Azeroth, and the orcs both know that demonic taint is NOT something that they want. In this case, fighting fire with fire only leads to you getting burned, while the enemy keeps on coming, unabated.

    Fel magic is extremely addictive. Look to the Satyrs as a perfect example; the highborne who were so tainted by their lust for fel magic that they became part of the Legion. The draenei, who know this better than anyone, wouldn't merely ostracize a member of their race who wielded fel magic... they would execute them. Swiftly. Efficiently. Without remorse. Without any doubt whatsoever what what they were doing was right. They would put down their brother or sister like a rabid dog, lest he or she taints the rest of their society.

    Quote Originally Posted by LostAlgorithm View Post
    But the Shadow doesn't seem to be any closer to Fel than, say, Fire arcane magic is. To more directly answer your question, the necessary balance between the Light and Shadow has been stressed all throughout. Is it really that difficult to picture someone who tries to straddle that line, to embody that balance? Someone whose devotion to the Light calls them to understand it in all of it's facets, even when there is a void? Yes, a Naaru falling totally into the void is a "catastrophic loss", but that's not what we're talking about here. That's more akin to a Mage joining the Shadow Council. It's a possible result, but not the only one.
    Shadow magic is a twist of Light magic. A mockery of it; its mirror opposite. The idea of yin and yang is an interesting one, but shadow magic and light magic are inherently driven by opposite personality traits. Wielders of the Light use it to help people. They are selfless. Shadow magic is dark; twisted. Because it is the mirror opposite of Light magic, it is driven by personal motivations; one's desire to become stronger. It is a destructive power and therefore cannot directly be used to help others (save the undead, if one decided to go into the more corruptive unholy magics). To wield it selflessly would be difficult, at best.
    Last edited by The Mister Madgod; 2012-10-28 at 06:33 AM.

  6. #26
    Shadow magic has no positive uses. Being the opposite of holy magic, which is primarily used to heal and to smite evil, it is only logical that shadow magic is used to destroy and to maim good. In terms of Unholy magic, which is an offshoot of shadow magic, it can heal the undead, but a draenei is hardly likely to do this, all things considered.
    Opposite of holy magic? Gonna have to disagree, Fel magic is the opposite of Light, but Shadow is a byproduct of the light and they are very intersected.
    "I just wanted them to hand us our award! But they were just talk!, talk!, talk!......" - Wrathion

  7. #27
    Then run on an RP server....simple.....duh!
    In a world of deceit, open your eyes.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Landin55 View Post
    Opposite of holy magic? Gonna have to disagree, Fel magic is the opposite of Light, but Shadow is a byproduct of the light and they are very intersected.
    Fel magic is the extremely concentrated version of arcane magic, it is not the opposite, nor direct counter of light magic. It is the opposite in regards to it being mainly evil while light magic is good, but it's not the direct opposite.

    Shadow and light are intertwined, but they are direct opposites and they are counters to each other. "Every light has a shadow, but every shadow needs a light". It's not a byproduct.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    Fel magic is the extremely concentrated version of arcane magic, it is not the opposite, nor direct counter of light magic. It is the opposite in regards to it being mainly evil while light magic is good, but it's not the direct opposite.

    Shadow and light are intertwined, but they are direct opposites and they are counters. "Every light has a shadow, but every shadow needs a light". It's not a byproduct.
    I thought Fel magic was one of the "pure" magics, Nature, Fel, Light, Arcane. The rest of the schools are created from the others, like I believe Shadow magic is created from light magic.
    "I just wanted them to hand us our award! But they were just talk!, talk!, talk!......" - Wrathion

  10. #30
    Yeah. Auchindoin shadow priest of some sort. Look into mana tombs, auchindoin and all the other dungeons right there. The orcs blew up the necropolis summoning murmur, but there were Draenei priests around. You could probably work something out of that the best.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Landin55 View Post
    I thought Fel magic was one of the "pure" magics, Nature, Fel, Light, Arcane. The rest of the schools are created from the others, like I believe Shadow magic is created from light magic.
    Nope. There's two primary types of magic. Arcane and Divine. All types of magic within Warcraft can be defined by these two types. Light and nature magics (in the form of the druidic and shamanic arts) are divine, while fel and the elemental magics are arcane. Not one of the schools of magic is created from another. They are all separate in their creation and use, though the light and divine shadow schools are interconnected, as I have already stated.

    Quote Originally Posted by darqhur View Post
    Yeah. Auchindoin shadow priest of some sort. Look into mana tombs, auchindoin and all the other dungeons right there. The orcs blew up the necropolis summoning murmur, but there were Draenei priests around. You could probably work something out of that the best.
    They went insane due to the wakening of Murmur by the Twilight Council, not exactly an option for the OP.
    Last edited by The Mister Madgod; 2012-10-28 at 07:01 AM.

  12. #32
    Scarab Lord ViridianWRA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    They went insane due to the wakening of Murmur by the Twilight Council, not exactly an option for the OP.
    I'd not heard this before?

    I'm genuinely just interested. My understanding was that they were simply a fringe cult of Draenei society that practiced necromancy as a form of ancestor worship and took over the old crypts in Auchindoun?

    The closest thing I'd heard to that is that they may have been corrupted by the void naaru D'ore.

    I'm genuinely curious. I loooove Draenei lore.

  13. #33
    Role-player Nonfictionless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Landin55 View Post
    I thought Fel magic was one of the "pure" magics, Nature, Fel, Light, Arcane. The rest of the schools are created from the others, like I believe Shadow magic is created from light magic.
    Nope. Fel is corrupted Arcane magic. Arcane and Divine are the two main paths. Everything falls under them or just outside them. The specializations in-game are not technically schools of magic but actually sub-schools, aka specializations. The real schools are Abjuration, Conjuration, Divination, Necromancy, Enchantment, Transmutation, Evocation, and Illusion.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Validity View Post
    I'd not heard this before?

    I'm genuinely just interested. My understanding was that they were simply a fringe cult of Draenei society that practiced necromancy as a form of ancestor worship and took over the old crypts in Auchindoun?

    The closest thing I'd heard to that is that they may have been corrupted by the void naaru D'ore.

    I'm genuinely curious. I loooove Draenei lore.
    My recollection is a bit shaky, but if memory serves, the draenei there were mainly caretakers of the dead and their use of necromancy is only fairly recently with the whole deal with Murmur.

    It's possible that they went insane due to Murmur, by the energies of D'ore, or even possibly a combination of the two. I think a case can be said for either.

    From the wiki page:

    Quote Originally Posted by wowpedia
    For thousands of years, the draenei have been interring their dead in Auchindoun, their most sacred temple. However, it was infiltrated by agents of the Shadow Council bent on summoning a horrifying creature of immense evil. Their vile act of magic resulted in a massive explosion that blew the temple apart and reduced the surrounding area into a charred wasteland. The blast also caused a rift in the Nether itself, drawing the otherworldly Ethereals into Outland. The interred draenei now walk the ruins as restless spirits.
    This is what leads me to believe that it is Murmur that caused the stark change.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nonfictionless View Post
    Nope. Fel is corrupted Arcane magic. Arcane and Divine are the two main paths. Everything falls under them or just outside them. The specializations in-game are not technically schools of magic but actually sub-schools, aka specializations. The real schools are Abjuration, Conjuration, Divination, Necromancy, Enchantment, Transmutation, Evocation, and Illusion.
    Oooh, Mr Technical up in this thread!
    Last edited by The Mister Madgod; 2012-10-28 at 07:19 AM.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    In their eyes, they fight the Undead and non-believers of the Light so that others do not have to, and that is how they help them.

    Really, what allows a wielder of the Light to use it is the belief that what they are doing is right and good. Doubt is what makes a wielder of the Light's power to falter and fade.



    Shadow magic has no positive uses. Being the opposite of holy magic, which is primarily used to heal and to smite evil, it is only logical that shadow magic is used to destroy and to maim good. In terms of Unholy magic, which is an offshoot of shadow magic, it can heal the undead, but a draenei is hardly likely to do this, all things considered.



    Understanding fel magic is completely separate from WIELDING it. The draenei, who arguably know more about fel magic than any other race on Azeroth, and the orcs both know that demonic taint is NOT something that they want. In this case, fighting fire with fire only leads to you getting burned, while the enemy keeps on coming, unabated.

    Fel magic is extremely addictive. Look to the Satyrs as a perfect example; the highborne who were so tainted by their lust for fel magic that they became part of the Legion. The draenei, who know this better than anyone, wouldn't merely ostracize a member of their race who wielded fel magic... they would execute them. Swiftly. Efficiently. Without remorse. Without any doubt whatsoever what what they were doing was right. They would put down their brother or sister like a rabid dog, lest he or she taints the rest of their society.



    Shadow magic is a twist of Light magic. A mockery of it; its mirror opposite. The idea of yin and yang is an interesting one, but shadow magic and light magic are inherently driven by opposite personality traits. Wielders of the Light use it to help people. They are selfless. Shadow magic is dark; twisted. Because it is the mirror opposite of Light magic, it is driven by personal motivations; one's desire to become stronger. It is a destructive power and therefore cannot directly be used to help others (save the undead, if one decided to go into the more corruptive unholy magics). To wield it selflessly would be difficult, at best.
    what about mind soothe? and shadow protection? both classified within the school of shadow, and both have positive uses.

    also, keep in mind that shadow cannot exist without light.
    Last edited by angelx7x; 2012-10-28 at 07:40 AM.

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  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by angelx7x View Post
    what about mind soothe? and shadow protection? both classified within the school of shadow, and both have positive uses.

    also, keep in mind that shadow cannot exist without light.
    Shadow magic is powered by intrinsic motivation, of selfishness. Therefore, any magic of shadowy origin would then have to obviously be of some benefit to you, and that be the focus when casting. Shadow Protection grants reduced damage from shadow magic. That's pretty easy to see how it can be used to benefit the self. Mind Soothe is a form of mental manipulation, it's not a healing technique. Therefore, its uses are mainly to the benefit of the caster, not the recipient of the spell. Even if indirectly, the motivations behind the spells are all based on whether or not it would benefit you, the caster, in some fashion.

    I've mentioned countless times that the shadow and the light are connected, but that connection does not mean similarity. They are polar opposites of each other.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    Shadow magic is powered by intrinsic motivation, of selfishness. Therefore, any magic of shadowy origin would then have to obviously be of some benefit to you, and that be the focus when casting. Shadow Protection grants reduced damage from shadow magic. That's pretty easy to see how it can be used to benefit the self. Mind Soothe is a form of mental manipulation, it's not a healing technique. Therefore, its uses are mainly to the benefit of the caster, not the recipient of the spell. Even if indirectly, the motivations behind the spells are all based on whether or not it would benefit you, the caster, in some fashion.

    I've mentioned countless times that the shadow and the light are connected, but that connection does not mean similarity. They are polar opposites of each other.
    in game, mind soothe may only be used for that purpose, though by its name, it could probably be used on allies as well, to help alleviate mental distress.

    Shadow is not inherently evil, nor even bad for that matter.

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  18. #38
    Role-player Nonfictionless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by angelx7x View Post
    in game, mind soothe may only be used for that purpose, though by its name, it could probably be used on allies as well, to help alleviate mental distress.

    Shadow is not inherently evil, nor even bad for that matter.
    The inherent evil or badness of Shadow is not at question here. We are talking about how it is self serving at it's core. Even within the Cult of Forgotten Shadows they have a minority that follow an extra virtue past the main three called Compasion.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    Oooh, Mr Technical up in this thread!
    Quite Indeededly.

  19. #39
    I still disagree with the idea that we should use Cult of Forgotten Shadow practices to describe all Shadow use and worship, but lets go with it for a minute. I can see a Draenei respecting the tenets of the Cult, but I have trouble seeing one wanting to associate with the Forsaken or consider themselves a member of their Cult. Where would he or she pick up those tenets?

    Shadow may be self-serving, but the goal that the self practicing it is serving can be the betterment of the universe, can't it?

  20. #40
    Role-player Nonfictionless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LostAlgorithm View Post
    I still disagree with the idea that we should use Cult of Forgotten Shadow practices to describe all Shadow use and worship, but lets go with it for a minute. I can see a Draenei respecting the tenets of the Cult, but I have trouble seeing one wanting to associate with the Forsaken or consider themselves a member of their Cult. Where would he or she pick up those tenets?
    Assuming that he/she knows the virtues of the Light and that the Shadow is the absolute opposite of the Light, it wouldn't be unacceptable to come to the same virtues that the Cult teaches.


    Quote Originally Posted by LostAlgorithm View Post
    Shadow may be self-serving, but the goal that the self practicing it is serving can be the betterment of the universe, can't it?
    That is the point of the Shadow. By gaining your own personal strength, power, influence, ranking, followers, etc you will be able to use your will to change those around you and change the universe.

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