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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Nonfictionless View Post
    Assuming that he/she knows the virtues of the Light and that the Shadow is the absolute opposite of the Light, it wouldn't be unacceptable to come to the same virtues that the Cult teaches.

    That is the point of the Shadow. By gaining your own personal strength, power, influence, ranking, followers, etc you will be able to use your will to change those around you and change the universe.
    I don't really see the virtues as being absolute opposites in practice though. The main difference seems to be where you feel that power comes from. There's large elements of Humanism in Cult of the Forgotten Shadow practice. Holy Light users feel there is automatically a divine connection between the self and the universe where Forgotten Shadow users feel that connection is only forged through your own efforts.

    The problem is that -both- seem to be true in the Warcraft universe. Would it be possible for a Draenei to recognize this and feel that though there is a divine connection through the Light, one can also further affect the world personally and forge more connections through measured application of the Shadow? No one is -always- selfless, nor is anyone -always- self-serving. Is such a balance possible?

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by LostAlgorithm View Post
    I don't really see the virtues as being absolute opposites in practice though. The main difference seems to be where you feel that power comes from. There's large elements of Humanism in Cult of the Forgotten Shadow practice. Holy Light users feel there is automatically a divine connection between the self and the universe where Forgotten Shadow users feel that connection is only forged through your own efforts.

    The problem is that -both- seem to be true in the Warcraft universe. Would it be possible for a Draenei to recognize this and feel that though there is a divine connection through the Light, one can also further affect the world personally and forge more connections through measured application of the Shadow? No one is -always- selfless, nor is anyone -always- self-serving. Is such a balance possible?
    Nonfic has already said that it's possible for someone to use both, but he hasn't seen your personal reasoning for doing such.

    However, the issue with it is that unless someone has an excellent ability to objectively look at themselves, they would have a difficult time of validating their choice of using shadow magic and seeing how they can even possibly use the Light's polar opposite. The light draws on the selflessness within you, so the more selfless you are and the more you believe your cause is right and just, the better you can draw upon its power. The shadow draws upon one's selfishness, so the more powerful you are with shadow magic, the less powerful you are with light magic. Yin and yang. When one is stronger, the other is weaker. Because the draenei (basically any race who wields the Light, save the sin'dorei, who may or may not wield it more like arcane magic) hold the Light in such high standing and find shadow magic taboo, if a priest goes into both, there will ultimately be an inner conflict within him or her, and the stronger they get with shadow magic, the stronger that conflict will be.

    You also do forget that Shadow magic is enticing. It is addictive, Once you go down that path, it is extremely difficult to get off of it.

    So is it possible to be a draenei who wields shadow magic? Yes.

    Would you be an outcast because of it? Probably.

    Would you have a deep inner conflict? Yes.

    Would it be difficult for your character, due to their upbringing, to truly justify wielding shadow magic? Probably.

    Would your character find it very hard to keep wielding both types of magic, and not go down into the path of shadow to fully wield it? Yes,
    Last edited by The Madgod; 2012-10-28 at 05:12 PM.

  3. #43
    Madgod, it's interesting you bring up Yin and Yang. I actually really like the idea of one side being stronger than the other, even to the point where it affects the personality of the user in subtle ways. The idea of a character who tries to flow back and forth between the two without becoming consumed by either is a really interesting concept, I think. The character would recognize that sometimes you have to take a stand on your own, that the only way something will get done is if you do it yourself, but at other times they might see that those Divine bonds are necessary and powerful in their own way.

    As one Draenei says in the starting zone, "Many are the paths of the Light." They could still be a very devoted Holy Light follower, but one who places value in the passion and strength of the individual separate from their bond with the universe as well. Someone who sees the strength of both and realizes they each have practical applications in different times. "It's darkest beneath the Lighthouse. We must understand and control those shadows so that our enemies cannot."

    Shadow magic is enticing and addictive, but so is every type of Arcane. The Draenei are beings of immense willpower, willpower being one of the biggest traits needed to be a worthy Shadow Priest. If anyone could control and prevent themselves from falling to addiction, it would be a Draenei.

    I can see where there could be an inner conflict, but I don't think it's a necessary quality for such a character. At least no more so than a Draenei Mage fighting against normal Arcane corruption. The tension between them and the rest of their race would definitely be there, but it's, again, a more moderate one than Warlocks running around the Exodar with their demons out is.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by LostAlgorithm View Post
    Madgod, it's interesting you bring up Yin and Yang. I actually really like the idea of one side being stronger than the other, even to the point where it affects the personality of the user in subtle ways. The idea of a character who tries to flow back and forth between the two without becoming consumed by either is a really interesting concept, I think. The character would recognize that sometimes you have to take a stand on your own, that the only way something will get done is if you do it yourself, but at other times they might see that those Divine bonds are necessary and powerful in their own way.

    As one Draenei says in the starting zone, "Many are the paths of the Light." They could still be a very devoted Holy Light follower, but one who places value in the passion and strength of the individual separate from their bond with the universe as well. Someone who sees the strength of both and realizes they each have practical applications in different times. "It's darkest beneath the Lighthouse. We must understand and control those shadows so that our enemies cannot."
    You make it sound easy, though. In reality, it is not. It's an inner struggle that is less like trying to balance on the curb of the road, staying not on the sidewalk, but not going into the street, but more like trying to balance on a tightrope 100 feet in the air over a tank full of sharks, where a false move will cost you dearly.

    Quote Originally Posted by LostAlgorithm View Post
    Shadow magic is enticing and addictive, but so is every type of Arcane. The Draenei are beings of immense willpower, willpower being one of the biggest traits needed to be a worthy Shadow Priest. If anyone could control and prevent themselves from falling to addiction, it would be a Draenei.

    I can see where there could be an inner conflict, but I don't think it's a necessary quality for such a character. At least no more so than a Draenei Mage fighting against normal Arcane corruption. The tension between them and the rest of their race would definitely be there, but it's, again, a more moderate one than Warlocks running around the Exodar with their demons out is.
    You vastly underestimate the difference between the two. From the page on Shadow (as a religion)

    Quote Originally Posted by wowpedia
    Its worshippers warn against shadow priests embracing it's dark magic wholesale, for it is often too hard to find one's way back from the deepest reaches of the darkness.
    It is quite easy to fall beyond salvation, much more so than arcane magic.

    Nor is willpower even the major factor in keeping ones self from falling. Willpower, the strength of the mind, is only useful if you have the personal objectivity to realize you might be falling. More often than not, when you realize you're falling, it's almost always too late.

    And you say that there could be an inner conflict, but it isn't necessary for a draenei? You're saying that a being from a race which is the most devout race towards the Light wouldn't have any inner conflict when they know that their use of shadow magic is weakening their connection with the Light and the Naaru, the most. revered. aspect. of. their. culture. Ingrained into their very survival for the past twenty five thousand years. The thing that saved them from the corruption of Sargeras and gave them purpose in this universe. You're saying that it's not necessary and wouldn't be any more gnawing than a mage working the arcane, when they are two very separate things. One is an inner struggle, another is an inner struggle that is compounded by extremely strong societal beliefs and values. Essentially, in order for your character not to care about that, they'd have to be a sociopath, which meant they wouldn't really care about helping others and would be purely a shadow priest, but you wanted a fairly sane priest, so that's not happening.

    EDIT: and weren't you looking for advice on how this works, which implies you lack knowledge on the subject?
    Last edited by The Madgod; 2012-10-28 at 07:01 PM.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    You make it sound easy, though. In reality, it is not. It's an inner struggle that is less like trying to balance on the curb of the road, staying not on the sidewalk, but not going into the street, but more like trying to balance on a tightrope 100 feet in the air over a tank full of sharks, where a false move will cost you dearly.

    You vastly underestimate the difference between the two. From the page on Shadow (as a religion)

    It is quite easy to fall beyond salvation, much more so than arcane magic.
    I think you overestimate it, I see nothing that hasn't been said already for the other typical Arcane energies. Regular Mages hear the same warnings all the time. And no one is talking about "embracing it's dark magic wholesale". I'm not trying to create a zealot, simply someone who, similar to a Mage, sees value in multiple forms of magic for different purposes.

    Nor is willpower even the major factor in keeping ones self from falling. Willpower, the strength of the mind, is only useful if you have the personal objectivity to realize you might be falling. More often than not, when you realize you're falling, it's almost always too late.
    That's fine and all, but you almost make it sound like it's impossible to prevent falling to corruption and addiction. It's a possibility, sure, but there are characters who have shown that kind of objectivity and willpower is possible, such as Meryl Felstorm. His will did eventually fail, but only because he selflessly allowed himself to be possessed over another and took a demon into himself that was too powerful for him to contain as a result. The fact remains that for thousands of years he was able to use his willpower to hold back corruption and addiction.

    And you say that there could be an inner conflict, but it isn't necessary for a draenei? You're saying that a being from a race which is the most devout race towards the Light wouldn't have any inner conflict when they know that their use of shadow magic is weakening their connection with the Light and the Naaru, the most. revered. aspect. of. their. culture. Ingrained into their very survival for the past twenty five thousand years. You're saying that it's not necessary and wouldn't be any more gnawing than a mage working the arcane, when they are two very separate things. One is an inner struggle, another is an inner struggle that is compounded by very strong societal beliefs and values.
    Where we disagree is that I don't see it as a weakening of their connection with the Light or the Naaru. Again, "Many are the paths of the Light". I could definitely see a Draenei feeling as though they are serving the purposes of the Light and the Naaru by taking up the Shadow. Respect for the passion and ability of an individual to affect the universe is not a direct spit in the face of the Naaru. And the Light requires the Shadow, and the Shadow requires the Light, as even the Naaru admit. I think it more odd that there aren't -already- a number of sane Draenei interested in the Shadow, considering.

    EDIT: and weren't you looking for advice on how this works, which implies you lack knowledge on the subject?
    I am looking for advice on this, but I disagree with some of the statements based on my own understanding of the lore. I do lack knowledge, but I'm not completely ignorant and it's not that hard for me to look up where you're getting your information from and find pieces I think are contrary to what you're arguing. I think the best way to develop a concept of worth is to challenge it. I'm sorry if you haven't been enjoying this discussion as much as I have. I've gained quite a bit out of it.

  6. #46
    Role-player Nonfictionless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LostAlgorithm View Post
    Where we disagree is that I don't see it as a weakening of their connection with the Light or the Naaru. Again, "Many are the paths of the Light". I could definitely see a Draenei feeling as though they are serving the purposes of the Light and the Naaru by taking up the Shadow. Respect for the passion and ability of an individual to affect the universe is not a direct spit in the face of the Naaru. And the Light requires the Shadow, and the Shadow requires the Light, as even the Naaru admit. I think it more odd that there aren't -already- a number of sane Draenei interested in the Shadow, considering.
    The Naaru in their dark stage of their life cycle is them in the Shadow. It is a weakened state. If you think a Draenei would take up the Shadow and think it is helping the Light, then I am sorry but you are no longer sane. These are clear cut distinctions. The Shadow at it's core and it's majority is selfish. It is about helping yourself to influence the world for yourself. Now that is not to say there aren't outliers, which is why I see it possible to be a Shadow Priest as a Draenei. But their race as a whole doesn't tolerate the Shadow. It is parallel to the Legion in their eyes.

    This really isn't up for discussion. It is the core of Draenei lore. They are zealot warriors of the Light.

    Quote Originally Posted by LostAlgorithm View Post
    I think you overestimate it, I see nothing that hasn't been said already for the other typical Arcane energies. Regular Mages hear the same warnings all the time. And no one is talking about "embracing it's dark magic wholesale". I'm not trying to create a zealot, simply someone who, similar to a Mage, sees value in multiple forms of magic for different purposes.
    Magic is an Addiction.
    When one feels the power of an arcane spell coursing through one's body as it's being cast, resisting the urge to cast it again is difficult. Frequent use leads to a desire for more and, eventually, to a desire for the evil fel energy.
    One of the four laws of magic in WoW. I just don't think you are considering what the Shadow really is. You are trying to fit a form for your character that you obviously already want. You are ignoring so much of Draenei, Shadow, and Light Lore.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by LostAlgorithm View Post
    I think you overestimate it, I see nothing that hasn't been said already for the other typical Arcane energies. Regular Mages hear the same warnings all the time. And no one is talking about "embracing it's dark magic wholesale". I'm not trying to create a zealot, simply someone who, similar to a Mage, sees value in multiple forms of magic for different purposes.
    Just because both get warnings does not mean that they are equal. Arcane magic is not manipulative, it simply corrupts. Shadow magic IS manipulative. It is tricksy; complex. If you want to be a tightrope walker, that's your perogative, but the balance between light and shadow is far more complex than you have been describing, especially for the draenei.

    Quote Originally Posted by LostAlgorithm View Post
    That's fine and all, but you almost make it sound like it's impossible to prevent falling to corruption and addiction. It's a possibility, sure, but there are characters who have shown that kind of objectivity and willpower is possible, such as Meryl Felstorm. His will did eventually fail, but only because he selflessly allowed himself to be possessed over another and took a demon into himself that was too powerful for him to contain as a result. The fact remains that for thousands of years he was able to use his willpower to hold back corruption and addiction.
    And he is one of how many?

    The fact remains that, while there are certainly cases of people being able to stop such self corruption, they are but a pebble in a lake. Using outliers to prove that something is possible does not make it so for the vast majority of priests and casters in general. Both the Church of the Holy Light and the draenei preach against the corruptive influence of the shadow. They don't do that simply because it's the opposite of the Light, they do it because it IS a powerful corruptive influence. The light is a pure, simple power. Ask, and you shall receive, as long as you feel you are just. If the shadow is a mirror of the light, then it is complex and manipulative. If you seek to control it, more often than not, it will control you. It feeds off of that pride, the thought that you can control it.

    Quote Originally Posted by LostAlgorithm View Post
    Where we disagree is that I don't see it as a weakening of their connection with the Light or the Naaru. Again, "Many are the paths of the Light". I could definitely see a Draenei feeling as though they are serving the purposes of the Light and the Naaru by taking up the Shadow. Respect for the passion and ability of an individual to affect the universe is not a direct spit in the face of the Naaru. And the Light requires the Shadow, and the Shadow requires the Light, as even the Naaru admit. I think it more odd that there aren't -already- a number of sane Draenei interested in the Shadow, considering.
    If there are none, then it's rather obvious that the belief that wielding the shadow to forward the cause of the Naaru is not one that is prevalent enough to even have a splinter group of priests who believe thus. That lack of substance proves that the idea that the draenei would want to use the shadow is not a solid one. And once again, shadow is a mirror of light. If one grows stronger within a person, the other grows weaker. The more one uses shadow magic, the more they WANT to use shadow magic, thus their connection to the Light, and therefore the Naaru, dims. You said you enjoyed my concept of yin and yang, it's the exact same thing here.

    Quote Originally Posted by LostAlgorithm View Post
    I am looking for advice on this, but I disagree with some of the statements based on my own understanding of the lore. I do lack knowledge, but I'm not completely ignorant and it's not that hard for me to look up where you're getting your information from and find pieces I think are contrary to what you're arguing. I think the best way to develop a concept of worth is to challenge it. I'm sorry if you haven't been enjoying this discussion as much as I have. I've gained quite a bit out of it.
    The issue here is that the things you bring up don't really contradict the points Nonfiction and I have brought up. The big one is you don't understand the EXTENT to which practitioners of the Light preach against the shadow and vilify it. Humanity is already pretty against it. Shadow priests have to hide and practice in secret, lest they are found out. Draenei are MUCH more strict in terms of that. They have an innate distrust of the shadow. Really, only Forsaken priests actively preach a balance of both. Alliance wielders of the Light very much take an "all or nothing" stance, especially the draenei, due to their history.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Nonfictionless View Post
    The Naaru in their dark stage of their life cycle is them in the Shadow. It is a weakened state. If you think a Draenei would take up the Shadow and think it is helping the Light, then I am sorry but you are no longer sane. These are clear cut distinctions. The Shadow at it's core and it's majority is selfish. It is about helping yourself to influence the world for yourself. Now that is not to say there aren't outliers, which is why I see it possible to be a Shadow Priest as a Draenei. But their race as a whole doesn't tolerate the Shadow. It is parallel to the Legion in their eyes.
    I'd be happy to see you put forth an idea for a Draenei Shadow Priest then.

    [quote]This really isn't up for discussion. It is the core of Draenei lore. They are zealot warriors of the Light.

    Except for that whole Shamanism thing, right? And the fact they let Warlocks run around their city. And regularly accept their aid. You're going to tell me Velen doesn't know he's dealing with extremely powerful warlocks on a regular basis? If they're strictly zealots, they sure aren't very zealoty.

    One of the four laws of magic in WoW. I just don't think you are considering what the Shadow really is. You are trying to fit a form for your character that you obviously already want. You are ignoring so much of Draenei, Shadow, and Light Lore.
    Like ignoring the fact they have Mages who already deal with that sort of issue? I've seen nothing to suggest Shadow is more addictive than any other form of Arcane. If Draenei Mages are acceptable and a fairly regular occurrence, then I fail to see why you're on such a kick about the addiction aspect.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by LostAlgorithm View Post
    I'd be happy to see you put forth an idea for a Draenei Shadow Priest then.

    Except for that whole Shamanism thing, right? And the fact they let Warlocks run around their city. And regularly accept their aid. You're going to tell me Velen doesn't know he's dealing with extremely powerful warlocks on a regular basis? If they're strictly zealots, they sure aren't very zealoty.
    Draenei shaman are still ardent believers in the Light and the Naaru. The belief in the Light is not based upon one's class... its based around one's culture.

    What you are describing is gameplay mechanics. The draenei would never allow a warlock to help them if they knew that that person was a warlock. As well, it's not as though you can necessarily tell a warlock is among you. Warlocks have to disguise themselves and refrain from using their powers nearby others. That's why warlocks in the Alliance train within inn cellars. A warlock who is open about such in the middle of the Exodar is at best banished from all of the draenei's territory, or at worst, a dead man, with the latter potentially being more likely. The exact same thing can be said for basically ANY city of the Alliance.

    Nonfiction is right. This is not up for discussion. You need to learn the difference between lore and gameplay and you need to learn about the draenei culture.

    Quote Originally Posted by LostAlgorithm View Post
    Like ignoring the fact they have Mages who already deal with that sort of issue? I've seen nothing to suggest Shadow is more addictive than any other form of Arcane. If Draenei Mages are acceptable and a fairly regular occurrence, then I fail to see why you're on such a kick about the addiction aspect.
    Shadow magic is FORBIDDEN by the majority of light-based cultures, the draenei included. They preach against it, they vilify it. Mages are simply warned about the dangers of magic, but priests are actively discouraged from even attempting to step down that path, and once again, they do it not only because it's the opposite of the light. If that's not enough to say that you WILL have inner conflict and WILL have a harder time balancing the light and the shadow than a mage who tries to resist the corruption of magic, then this discussion is done, as we're not getting anywhere here.

    I hate to seem elitist, but all of this Nonfic and I are saying is basically common knowledge among roleplayers and loremasters. There's no discussion on these topics. It is not up for debate.
    Last edited by The Madgod; 2012-10-28 at 08:06 PM.

  10. #50
    Role-player Nonfictionless's Avatar
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    Look I'm not going to repeat myself again. I don't think Madgod should have to repeat himself again. You are simply refusing to accept lore. In-game mechanics, such as warlocks in the Exodar or Stormwind for that matter don't really apply in this case. Warlocks hide their demons. They hide in a basement under the strict supervision of the King. They are already outcasts of society and only allowed in because of the need for them against the Horde. You are using small thing that Blizzard won't enforce in game to justify your character against a long list of lore against it.

    You came here for advice. We have given a literal ton of it to help you and now we are going back and forth for no other reason than your refusal to accept established lore. I have given you reasons how you can achieve a shadow draenei priest, but this now is just trying to go to far.

    I really hate to pull the "I'm right, your wrong" card here, but I feel like it has come to that.
    Last edited by Nonfictionless; 2012-10-28 at 08:10 PM.

  11. #51
    The Lightbringer Ermahgerd's Avatar
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    When it comes to lore I always think its bogus. Especially for some races.

    I mean, I'm an Undead, serving Dark Lady Windrunner, yet the inhibitants of Pandaria allow me to raise my own cloud serpent. They also treat me like I'm the nicest guy in the world... >.<

  12. #52
    I think it's unfortunate that this has become more about trying to prove yourselves right than seeing what kind of interesting and new directions the lore can possibly be taken in and interpreted to allow. I don't want a typical, cookie cutter Draenei. I find new ideas interesting, even if they push boundaries. Those boundaries are what I'm trying to examine. Instead of take the opportunity to have some fun with it, you've simply stuck to convention, even when I've shown convention -can- be stretched with examples like Felstorm.

    And I find it interesting that in another topic one of you said a Kirin Tor Mage would obviously be able to pick out a Warlock student, but you don't seem to think Velen would instantly recognize that a Warlock stepped into the Exodar the second they did. Even saying Warlocks and other dark magic users are completely banned from the Exodar in lore, you cannot say that Velen hasn't accepted their help in the lore. Draenei are not uber-zealots on the whole, especially not their highest of leadership.

    Thank you for your help, I just wish you had tried to have more fun with it.

  13. #53
    Role-player Nonfictionless's Avatar
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    Velen never has worked with a Warlock in lore. I can say that because it is true. We have given you points where you can push the boundries in lore and it still be acceptable. I am saying that this has come to a point where you refuse to accept that you can not push it further. They are "uber-zealots", and honestly I am starting to suspect you have not read as much as you can about them. I would suggest doing so if you plan to continue with your Draenei Shadow Priest.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Nonfictionless View Post
    Velen never has worked with a Warlock in lore. I can say that because it is true. We have given you points where you can push the boundries in lore and it still be acceptable. I am saying that this has come to a point where you refuse to accept that you can not push it further. They are "uber-zealots", and honestly I am starting to suspect you have not read as much as you can about them. I would suggest doing so if you plan to continue with your Draenei Shadow Priest.
    I'm sorry, but that's nonsense. You're saying the quests where Warlocks have directly interacted with Velen are all completely non-canon? Where is there a dev. stating as such? Or are you simply applying your own interpretation of the lore now as well?

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by LostAlgorithm View Post
    I think it's unfortunate that this has become more about trying to prove yourselves right than seeing what kind of interesting and new directions the lore can possibly be taken in and interpreted to allow. I don't want a typical, cookie cutter Draenei. I find new ideas interesting, even if they push boundaries. Those boundaries are what I'm trying to examine. Instead of take the opportunity to have some fun with it, you've simply stuck to convention, even when I've shown convention -can- be stretched with examples like Felstorm.

    And I find it interesting that in another topic one of you said a Kirin Tor Mages would obviously be able to pick out a Warlock student, but you don't seem to think Velen would instantly recognize that a Warlock stepped into the Exodar. Even saying Warlocks and other dark magic users are completely banned from the Exodar in lore, you cannot say that Velen hasn't accepted their help in the lore. Draenei are not uber-zealots on the whole, especially not their highest of leadership.

    Thank you for your help, I just wish you had tried to have more fun with it.
    No, it's not about stretching the lore, it is imparting the facts of the culture onto you. We have constantly been telling you that your concept can work, but you vastly underestimate the effect your culture will have on your character's choice and the significance and the danger of the inner struggle you wish to have. We aren't saying that your concept won't work. We haven't said that. The concept of a shadow-wielding draenei is POSSIBLE. It's UNLIKELY, it would be DIFFICULT to roleplay, but it is POSSIBLE. It is you who ignores what we are saying.

    We do not inhibit new ideas and going away from convention, but we understand the effects that cultures have on the people within them and if you want to stretch convention, you have to take that into account.

    As well, Felstorm is one in hundreds of thousands of magi. That's a terrible example. You have to make an absurdly gigantic leap in logic in order to justify a player character being able to do anything near what he did.

    Nor can you say Velen HAS willingly taken help from warlocks in lore. There's literally no mention of such. At all. And yes, draenei are quite zealous. It's their thing.

    And the quote you're referring to is:

    Quote Originally Posted by Nonfictionless View Post
    It would be very RP'able. Sounds like an interesting character. Essentially a warlock is a mage so you won't have problems.

    I would however like to make a point about Fel Corruption. Like the arcane it will take it's toll on your body and, well, corrupt it only much faster and in a much more demonic way. (Think fel green eyes of the Blood Elves) So depending on how long and how often you consort with demons and channel Fel magics, soon it would be unavoidable to not be seen as a warlock. So this would cause a problem with him being in the Kirin Tor, because frankly while he is learning and discovers Fel he will be found out. Simply because his teachers would be Archmagi and much more skilled and knowledgeable than him. But after being found out don't forget about the Slaughtered Lamb!

    Also in my opinion not mary sue-ish at all.
    Don't twist words. He said due to the corruptive aspects of demonic magic, it would become increasingly hard to hide a warlock's identity. The exact same thing applies in this case.

    If you can't back up what you say with actual facts and lore, and then play the victim when we come in and say you're wrong, that's your problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by LostAlgorithm View Post
    I'm sorry, but that's nonsense. You're saying the quests where Warlocks have directly interacted with Velen are all completely non-canon? Where is there a dev. stating as such? Or are you simply applying your own interpretation of the lore now as well?
    Yes, they are. At least in terms of the person interacting with Velen being a warlock, or any specific class, really. Nothing we do as players is canon in terms of US. The players, in lore, are NEVER the people who directly play a part within the story.

    The canon version of events is always a random, unnamed adventurer, or a random group of unnamed adventurers. This is accepted as fact among any legitimate roleplaying or lore community.

    Understanding this, and the fact that draenei have an extreme hatred and distrust of fel magic, they never would let a warlock help them if they knew that he or she was actually a warlock and they would ESPECIALLY not let him or her near their beloved Prophet, thus, it is easy and quite logical to assume that Velen has not been directly helped by a warlock, at least to his knowledge.

    Arguing against this philosophy allows for every single person in Azeroth who has killed a named NPC to claim that they did so in LORE. How many people have killed the Lich King in-game, and how many people, in-lore do you think could stand on his platform? This leads to what we tend to call "shitty immersion", and therefore, all legitimate roleplayers and loremasters say no player character can have a direct part in lore. The quests we do, we always play the hero. We can't all be the hero, so none of us are.
    Last edited by The Madgod; 2012-10-28 at 09:08 PM.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    Yes, they are. Nothing we do as players is canon in terms of US. The players, in lore, are NEVER the people who directly play a part within the story.

    The canon version of events is always a random, unnamed adventurer, or a random group of unnamed adventurers. This is accepted as fact among any legitimate roleplaying community.

    Understanding this, and the fact that draenei have an extreme hatred and distrust of fel magic, they never would let a warlock help them if they knew that he or she was actually a warlock and they would ESPECIALLY not let him or her near their beloved Prophet.
    I have to disagree again. They keep the terms ambiguous in lore so that players can plug their characters into the canon without having to create multiple versions of canon for each class. Considering this, the only logical assumption then is to assume that -all- of the options are canon, it simply depends on the perspective of the player which applies to them. Thus, Velen -has- accepted the help of player Warlocks within the lore until a developer specifically says otherwise.

    And Velen's a big boy, I'm sure he can handle himself around some player Warlocks.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-28 at 09:14 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    Arguing against this philosophy allows for every single person in Azeroth who has killed a named NPC to claim that they did so in LORE. How many people have killed the Lich King in-game, and how many people, in-lore do you think could stand on his platform? This leads to what we tend to call "shitty immersion", and therefore, all legitimate roleplayers and loremasters say no player character can have a direct part in lore. The quests we do, we always play the hero. We can't all be the hero, so none of us are.
    The devs don't make the lore to cater to roleplayers. Whatever rules you make for yourselves don't matter to the canon. For those of us who don't roleplay, such as myself, our character absolutely was the "nameless adventurer" who was there to take down such and such huge figure. I can understand how it gets tricky for roleplaying having everyone be the hero, but all of that doesn't matter to the story Blizz is writing.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by LostAlgorithm View Post
    I have to disagree again. They keep the terms ambiguous in lore so that players can plug their characters into the canon without having to create multiple versions of canon for each class. Considering this, the only logical assumption then is to assume that -all- of the options are canon, it simply depends on the perspective of the player which applies to them. Thus, Velen -has- accepted the help of player Warlocks within the lore until a developer specifically says otherwise.

    And Velen's a big boy, I'm sure he can handle himself around some player Warlocks.
    Your "logic" and process of thought would lead to unparalleled inconsistency within the canon lore. You're basically saying that EVERYONE who has done a quest for velen - the exact same quest - can say that they did it in LORE. How is that realistic, let alone possible? The exact same quest. Hundreds of thousands, if not millions of times done exactly the same each time. It's all or nothing, and any partially respected person who understands this paradox would easily say "Nobody can claim it". The more logical way to look at this is Velen has NOT accepted the help of a warlock within the lore until a developer specifically says otherwise.

    Players. Do. Not. Count.

    The ONLY reason they have that ambiguousness in the quests is so that we can participate within the story. Our participation in the story and the canon version of those events are two separate entities. Nobody would want to play the game if they couldn't help spearhead the fight against the Forsaken in Gilneas or become the one chosen mortal of Aessina and help reclaim and heal Hyjal from the forces of Ragnaros and the Twilight's Hammer. But just because our characters did it does NOT mean it is or even should be considered canon.

    It doesn't matter whether or not he can handle himself, it's about how warlocks are perceived by a culture and that culture's reverence and dedication to protect their leader and the Light. You have no grasp on this.
    Last edited by The Madgod; 2012-10-28 at 09:20 PM.

  18. #58
    Unless you're roleplaying, which again Blizz does not cater the lore to roleplayers, it doesn't matter if everyone is the hero. The only hero who matters in any individual person's story is their own. There is no paradox. Other people's characters do not matter unless you decide to plug them into your "story" as well.

    I understand why you feel the way you do as a roleplayer, which is part of the reason I don't roleplay. There absolutely is an inconsistency when you care about other player's character's stories beyond your own. But when the only one you care about is yours? There is no such issue.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by LostAlgorithm View Post
    Unless you're roleplaying, which again Blizz does not cater the lore to roleplayers, it doesn't matter if everyone is the hero. The only hero who matters in any individual person's story is their own. There is no paradox. Other people's characters do not matter unless you decide to plug them into your "story" as well.

    I understand why you feel the way you do as a roleplayer, which is part of the reason I don't roleplay. There absolutely is an inconsistency when you care about other player's character's stories beyond your own. But when the only one you care about is yours? There is no such issue.
    Quote Originally Posted by LostAlgorithm View Post
    The devs don't make the lore to cater to roleplayers. Whatever rules you make for yourselves don't matter to the canon. For those of us who don't roleplay, such as myself, our character absolutely was the "nameless adventurer" who was there to take down such and such huge figure. I can understand how it gets tricky for roleplaying having everyone be the hero, but all of that doesn't matter to the story Blizz is writing.
    They don't make lore to cater to anyone. The fact remains that you want paradoxes and a story that makes no sense. I am telling you right now, point blank, that the players do not have any part in the legitimate canon of the story. We are merely a device within it that allows us to participate within it in a meaningful exciting way, but not truly be a part of it. There is no canon saying Kuangshen the brewmaster monk defeated the forces of Ragnaros at Hyjal and helped heal the land.

    Even blizzard developers go with the "random adventurers" plot device when discussing memorable events in the past unless its a point where player involvement is able to be considered as a single part of a group effort, such as the death knight starting zone.

    At this point, you're basically saying that none of what we say matters, despite the facts and the backing of the logic of both the lore and roleplaying communities, since your story is just for you. For all you care, your priest can have flamethrowers for arms and is twenty feet tall, and it would still be okay, because "hey, it's just for me! Who cares if it's right?" You can have your story, but you should know that it is not canon. Canon is no player character being directly named as a person who did something to forward the plotline. Characters controlled by players are part of the story, sure, but they are never explicitly named and placing your character in that pedestal automatically makes it non canon, as Blizzard has not stated who specifically did these things.

    Why even ask us for our opinions and our criticism if you just ignore it all?
    Last edited by The Madgod; 2012-10-28 at 10:08 PM.

  20. #60
    They don't make lore to cater to anyone. The fact remains that you want paradoxes and a story that makes no sense. I am telling you right now, point blank, that the players do not have any part in the legitimate canon of the story. We are merely a device within it that allows us to participate within it in a meaningful exciting way, but not truly be a part of it. There is no canon saying Kuangshen the brewmaster monk defeated the forces of Ragnaros at Hyjal and helped heal the land.
    There are no paradoxes unless you roleplay. Player characters, meaning each individual's personal character, are a part of the canon unless they roleplay. There is nothing in the canon that speaks against this. If they didn't want player characters to be part of the canon, it wouldn't be "nameless adventurers" doing things. You'd instead see more occasions such as where they retconned it to have Varian be the one to slayed Onyxia.

    At this point, you're basically saying that none of what we say matters, despite the facts and the backing of the logic of both the lore and roleplaying communities, since your story is just for you. For all you care, your priest can have flamethrowers for arms and is twenty feet tall, and it would still be okay, because "hey, it's just for me! Who cares if it's right?" You can have your story, but you should know that it is not canon. Canon is no player character being directly named as a person who did something to forward the plotline. Characters controlled by players are part of the story, sure, but they are never explicitly named and placing your character in that pedestal automatically makes it non canon, as Blizzard has not stated who specifically did these things.

    Why even ask us for our opinions and our criticism if you just ignore it all?
    I'm sorry, I thought we were having a discussion. If you wanted someone who only agrees with you maybe you should have stuck to talking to yourself in the mirror. I think I've remained very civil despite our disagreements, nowhere did I say your opinion doesn't matter. I very much value your opinion, I simply have different ones and enjoy challenging them. I apologize if it has been taken as anything more than wanting a discussion.

    I feel that player characters are placed on that pedestal by Blizzard's storyline design choices. There is no paradox unless you try to include all of the other player characters, which is unnecessary. I'm not trying to break lore, I just feel you're too stuck on convention. I don't mean any insult by that, simply that we have differing opinions on a number of fairly ambiguous parts of the lore. I also don't mean to seem like I'm ignoring your opinions or criticisms, I just see very little value in not trying to challenge them. If everyone agreed all the time the world would be a very boring place.
    Last edited by Dalkailus; 2012-10-28 at 11:05 PM.

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