Just me, or are Shamans not 'Airy' enough?

[Juicebox]

This thread made me want a class that use electricity to fight. Not a shaman, a pure electricity class/spec. Like a fire mage.

[DieFichte]

why cant trolls be paladins on that matter? Anyways, I'd rather they keep a clean rift between shamans/druids. If the borders between classes keep getting blurred, where is the individuality of each class going to?

Because Trolls have a different culture of using divine magic, but if there would be a Loa that grants the troll Light magic...well there would be holy trolls. (It's the same with shamanism, until the darkspear "real" shamans were not really there for trolls, as they don't need the elements when they have their Loa for zeh powerz!)

[Deleted]

Because Trolls have a different culture of using divine magic, but if there would be a Loa that grants the troll Light magic...well there would be holy trolls. (It's the same with shamanism, until the darkspear "real" shamans were not really there for trolls, as they don't need the elements when they have their Loa for zeh powerz!)

They did have shaman, but they were relatively few (especially compared to the priesthood) and very... intertwined with their other casters (loa priests, shadow hunters, witch doctors) - to the point that it's hard to say when a troll was a priest, mage (primal, elementalist type) or shaman.

[Omanley]

Because Trolls have a different culture of using divine magic, but if there would be a Loa that grants the troll Light magic...well there would be holy trolls. (It's the same with shamanism, until the darkspear "real" shamans were not really there for trolls, as they don't need the elements when they have their Loa for zeh powerz!)

Like lokann (and me) said, trolls have priests, and therefor can wield light magic. A paladin is basically a warrior wielding light magic. Trolls can be warriors, they can be priests, they should be able to be paladins also.

The order of the silver hand (the first paladins) were created first as bodyguards for the vulnerable priests. Soon they realised those defenders were spreading the word of the church better, they teached their bodyguards the way of the light, and thus paladins were born. A follower of whichever loa grants light magic actually learning melee combat and wearing plate? Not a far stretch. Less than troll warlocks and druids tbh.

[Auxis]

Also why can druids use wind powers?Druids represent nature. And wind is natural, so some druids can use some wind powers. There are many different druid sects which each represent an animal or a different part of nature. Like for instance Druid of the Fang or the Druid of the Talon.

Yes. And Earth, Water, and Fire is natural too. So by rights, druids should be able to set things on fire, collapse the rock under a town, and summon a tsunami.

[shammypie]

TBH, I've been watching Avatar: Last Airbender recently. And yes, the benders in there can control sub-elements of their primaries (Earth=Metal, Fire=Lava and Lightning).

And it got me wondering. Resto uses Water and Earth, and Enhancement and Elemental use both Earth and Fire (Earthquake, Earth Shock, Lava Lash/Burst, Flame Shock and Fire Nova), yet Shamans use Lightning, which is seen in Air elementals. Yet, shamans only have 2 proper Air spells (Wind Shock or whatever its called, and Windfury).

Now, I'm no genius, but I'm pretty sure that Electricity is formed by heat, unless someone can prove me otherwise.

Just confuses me as to why we have only 2 Air spells, not including Ascendance.

Resto is almost pure water with an earth shield and earth elemental mixed in


Lightning is formed by massive Electrostatic charge build up in the clouds that becomes big enough for it to jump through air to the ground. This sparking is due to air acting as an insulator. This charge occurs when clouds rub together causing loss of electrons in the outer shells. The primary reason clouds and air currents form is due to pressure differentials in the atmosphere and the property of dispersion. These pressure differentials are caused by radiation from the sun as well as other sources of energy. While the source cause of lightning may be heat due to the above process, electricity on the other hand is not. Electricity like that in your house is from both AC/DC sources. These sources are generated numerous ways with the primary one in the united states coming from burning coal. This moves a motor that then moves other parts in magnetic fields to create electricity. However it does not need to be coal as solar cells actually use the energy from photons to excite electric current.

In summary "Wind" is a product from heat so if your saying Shamans aren't "airy" enough you are saying they lack heat. If you want to go into more generic and traditional ways of looking at things, then you will see all lightning and electricity related spells come from the use of Air Elemental Magic.


Fyi, Avatar is not a good source material for arguments in a debate.

[Lavindar]

Yes. And Earth, Water, and Fire is natural too. So by rights, druids should be able to set things on fire, collapse the rock under a town, and summon a tsunami.

As was said early in the topic, druids are a very specialized type of shamanism, We have to remember that the true power of a shaman is to commune with spirits, it so happens that communing with elemental spirits give you the ability to wield elemental powers, an a druid specialize in communing with the spirits of nature, like the ancients and thus wield more "living" powers;
There's actually a quest in Vash'jr that a shaman explains about the wild shamanism, when he uses it's power to commune with the spirit of a living creature.

Resto is almost pure water with an earth shield and earth elemental mixed in


Lightning is formed by massive Electrostatic charge build up in the clouds that becomes big enough for it to jump through air to the ground. This sparking is due to air acting as an insulator. This charge occurs when clouds rub together causing loss of electrons in the outer shells. The primary reason clouds and air currents form is due to pressure differentials in the atmosphere and the property of dispersion. These pressure differentials are caused by radiation from the sun as well as other sources of energy. While the source cause of lightning may be heat due to the above process, electricity on the other hand is not. Electricity like that in your house is from both AC/DC sources. These sources are generated numerous ways with the primary one in the united states coming from burning coal. This moves a motor that then moves other parts in magnetic fields to create electricity. However it does not need to be coal as solar cells actually use the energy from photons to excite electric current.

In summary "Wind" is a product from heat so if your saying Shamans aren't "airy" enough you are saying they lack heat. If you want to go into more generic and traditional ways of looking at things, then you will see all lightning and electricity related spells come from the use of Air Elemental Magic.


Fyi, Avatar is not a good source material for arguments in a debate.

But he was saying Air powers, not wind powers, and in a fictional world, like WoW there be ways of creating wind without the need of heat, like how air elementals work, and by this the power of shamas over wind/air would not necessary to be through heat.

-- --

As wind/air is actually my favorite element (and by this I love to play enhancement), I do miss more wind/air spells, I feel jealous every time I see a druid casting those cool wind spells.

Would be cool if we get some form of slow fall, something like channeling air currents.

[Auxis]

I just used the 4 air totems i have access to, and while the Capacitor totem's stun looks rather neat, the the Grounding shows nothing, the Stormlash makes your hands glow and makes the enemy be blasted by what looks like your earth shock spell, and the Windwalks looks neatish, giving you a gust underneath your feet. But this still doesn't shake off the feeling that they aren't as 'common' as your other spells, and it still makes Air feel pulled under.

[Endus]

It's difficult to discuss some of this stuff, because people are acting as if Shamanism were a coherent, unique, exclusive "thing". It's not. Nor is druidism, or priesting, or magery, or what have you. They all follow the same pattern, and in many cases tap into the same forces. Nor are the player classes the ONLY paths that are possible; they're just the ones common enough among the Alliance and Horde to be used by the elite footsoldiers (which is what we are; player characters are more like an elite mercenary/special forces group than named heroes; think Seal Team Six, not James Bond).

That's why you've got druids in Wailing caverns with different animal forms than "standard" druids. Why plenty of groups seem to have "classes" that combine several of our classes. Etc. Because none of this is hard-defined; there are shades of gray between everything, and often, it's the difference between a meatloaf or a pot roast; it's still beef, but it looks and tastes pretty different.

The Elemental Forces are, so far as we know (lore's really, really scant about it; it may be that nobody truly knows) extraplanar representations of natural forces. Shaman tapped into what they saw as "natural" forces under the standard earth/water/fire/air paradigm, but there's a growing suspicion (not among players, I'm referring to in-lore discussions by NPCs) that the Light and Shadow aren't much different, and that the Wild/Nature/Dream that the Druids tap into is also related.

And then you've got the ancestral spirits thing, which is tied in with the loa and such as well, but is fairly unrelated; Shaman supposedly started with the spiritual stuff and then figured out how to tap into the Elemental forces.

Last I heard, An'she (since it got brought up) is just considered to be another name for the Light, so Sunwalkers really are Paladins by a different name. Elune isn't really a "lunar" deity; they've basically confirmed in-game that she is (or at least, was) a Naaru. Ties right in with the Light that they embody, explains why Night Elf eyes glow as they do (and the same is true of the other race we know are Naaru-touched; the Draenei), etc. She may have "ascended" to a different noncorporeal form that's stronger than most Naaru, but still, same origin.

The main source for that theory lies here, at KnowYourLore; http://wow.joystiq.com/2010/05/01/kn...ne-is-a-naaru/

It was written back in 2010, and since that was written, we've had it confirmed as fact that the Night Elves were trolls, changed by Elune through the Well of Eternity. We've also had Velen chatting up Tyrande and saying how much Elune sounds like a Naaru. So there's even more in-game confirmation on that today than when it was written. An'she could also have been another Naary who came with her, but that's basically utter conjecture at this point.


So basically, we've got extraplanar forces you can tap into, and a host of different ways to do that. There's Earth, Air, Fire, Water, Light, Shadow, "Nature/Dream", and arguably Fel. And there may be others.


Also; Ragnaros and his buddies aren't the Kings of the Elements. They're the Lieutenants of the Old Gods. They don't rule the Elemental Planes, they're just really powerful Elementals, strong enough to force lesser elementals to their will and thus command armies. They sided with the Old Gods and ran amok over Azeroth, and the Titans locked them away in their prison plane; the Firelands, Deepholm, the Abyssal Maw, and Skywall are the regions of this place, for each type. These are not the extraplanar home of these Elementals; they were not banished to their home plane, but locked away in a prison. Shaman don't tap into fire elementals from the Firelands; if they did, then when we fight Ragnaros he'd just say "you guys, my side, now" and they'd go. That they don't makes it pretty clear they're from somewhere else entirely, their original home. The Twilight Hammer are likely drawing directly from the prison planes, though.


And that's way more of a loredump than I was ready to write at 2am.

[Flatspriest]

If you don't think that Shaman's are "airy" enough, try standing behind one after they have eaten a bunch of beans. It may not kill you, but you'll wish you were dead...lol.

[medievalman1]

4th shammy spec, tank spec, primarily based on air... >_>

[tvk1207]

need more air for sure

[Aquinan]

Now, I'm no genius, but I'm pretty sure that Electricity is formed by heat, unless someone can prove me otherwise.

\

Electricity is energy in the form of electrons, a negatively charged particle. It can be static: the accumulation of charges (think wearing wool socks, walking on carpet and zapping people) or dynamic: a current (i.e any electric device, batteries etc)

your possibly thinking of friction, which is heat generated by anything rubbing against anything else

[Ascendant]

Wind/Air Elemental totem KGO

This I honestly wouldn't mind. Make Primal Elementalist buff it too.

[Omanley]

Well, if the elemental forces in a greater sense are nothing more than natural powers, it would also work the other way around, allowing shamans, by the manipulation of the elements a plant needs to grow, to use druidism.

It's not that simple though. The specifics of shamanism are granted through the deities which are worshipped. As far as classes go, blizz made it so that different divine figures of different races grant the exact same powers so that there's no difference between races of one and the same class. That means however that we should stick to that.

The power of manipulating wind is granted by elemental powers only. Elune is no wind spirit, but the moon goddess. The arcane aspect comes from her. The plant/animal aspect, I dont know if it comes through honoring nature directly, or through elune as well (I suspect the former).
Just because the different types of magic can be related in some form or another, doesn't mean you can simply cross over.

The wailing cavern druids are snakey, because their druidism god corrupted by an old god, changing their shape-shifting to something more sinister, old-god-like (because snakes are evil, duh :P ). That's more of a style difference though, nothing else (like troll shamans turning into a ghost wind serpent instead of a wolf or something).

As far as Elemental Lords/Old Gods go: I think they got corrupted by the old gods back then. When the titans sealed the old gods, the elementals became free of their corruption (though they were banished). Ragnaros was fighting for an old god back then, but isn't now. He has his own agenda. Even if DW, who got corrupted by an old god, freed him, he himself is free to do what he likes (although the destruction of the world just so happens to align with DW's master's goal. An elemental lord is the King of his/her respective plane. He cant directly control all elementals, but elementals, just like humanoids, follow those with the most power. I am not entirely sure how a shaman using fire to fight against ragnaros works though (aside from logical imunity issues). I think there are fire elementals not serving in Ragnaros' army (rebels), which are the ones serving the "good" shamans, whereas the evil ones serve the elemental lords directly.

[Deleted]

And then you've got the ancestral spirits thing, which is tied in with the loa and such as well, but is fairly unrelated; Shaman supposedly started with the spiritual stuff and then figured out how to tap into the Elemental forces.

Most shaman RPers seem to agree from a web of hints formed from Lord of the Clans, Nobundo's short story, The Shattering and Thrall: Twilight of the Aspects that the Wilds are the... 'basic' Spirit, from which all life stems. In accordance to the mantra that "everything that is, is alive", it's believed that the Wilds are what tauren revere as the Earthmother (the elements are seen as her 'children' by tauren shaman) and that the four elements are its aspects.

The first shaman would by this theory have found a way to commune with the Spirit of the Wilds and discovered that the elements themselves are alive and thus can be bargained with.

[shammypie]

As was said early in the topic, druids are a very specialized type of shamanism, We have to remember that the true power of a shaman is to commune with spirits, it so happens that communing with elemental spirits give you the ability to wield elemental powers, an a druid specialize in communing with the spirits of nature, like the ancients and thus wield more "living" powers;
There's actually a quest in Vash'jr that a shaman explains about the wild shamanism, when he uses it's power to commune with the spirit of a living creature.



But he was saying Air powers, not wind powers, and in a fictional world, like WoW there be ways of creating wind without the need of heat, like how air elementals work, and by this the power of shamas over wind/air would not necessary to be through heat.

-- --

As wind/air is actually my favorite element (and by this I love to play enhancement), I do miss more wind/air spells, I feel jealous every time I see a druid casting those cool wind spells.

Would be cool if we get some form of slow fall, something like channeling air currents.

You realize that air and wind powers are one int he same. In fact the wind is made from air. I was explaining to the person above how heat factors into wind and lightning to keep him from confusing the two. Furthermore i was trying to say that all electricity spells are a type of Air/Wind magic. Please don't start a potato potato argument.

Furtermore druid and shaman spells are very closely tide together and that is why we both use the nature school quite a bit.


Finally your class is a style of magic. IF you think of it that all azerothians are able to use to all types of magic at birth. We then go to "school" and learn from a teach how to use a certain style of magic. Ex priests and shamans. Priests learn to commune with holy light and use different types of holy magic. shamans do their thing with elements and spirits. Very powerful (lore wise) users are able to put the theories into practice in new combos and thus you see thrall and Benedictus pulling out spells from their buts when they fight. However the average user (you) can only use the spells taught by their teachers because they are unable to craft spells from theory.

I try to envision abilities in the game like a mix of martial arts and science with a magic theme.

[Aquinan]

I am not entirely sure how a shaman using fire to fight against ragnaros works though (aside from logical imunity issues).

Speaking from purely raid experience, MC40 fire immune mobs were a bitch, RP/Lorejunkie wise yea fine it makes no sense to use fire on the firelord, but gameplay wise, much less of a pain in the ass.

[Deleted]

Speaking from purely raid experience, MC40 fire immune mobs were a bitch, RP/Lorejunkie wise yea fine it makes no sense to use fire on the firelord, but gameplay wise, much less of a pain in the ass.

It's a case of using the hurt and vengeful Spirit of Fire against one of its chief traitors, so I guess it would work to some extent.

[Endus]

Well, if the elemental forces in a greater sense are nothing more than natural powers, it would also work the other way around, allowing shamans, by the manipulation of the elements a plant needs to grow, to use druidism.

This is kind of like saying "oh, if we're just talking martial arts, then a guy who's a black belt in Karate totally knows Kung Fu, too." The end goal is the same, some of the base principles are the same, but the style and ethic are completely different. In short; Shaman don't tap into the Wild/Nature/whatever because we're Shaman. And because player characters choose one path; we're not supposed to be unique and special in and of ourselves.

The power of manipulating wind is granted by elemental powers only. Elune is no wind spirit, but the moon goddess. The arcane aspect comes from her. The plant/animal aspect, I dont know if it comes through honoring nature directly, or through elune as well (I suspect the former).
Just because the different types of magic can be related in some form or another, doesn't mean you can simply cross over.

Elune's powers are Light-based; she's the source of the Night Elf priesthood. She has nothing to do with Arcane magic, really.

The wailing cavern druids are snakey, because their druidism god corrupted by an old god, changing their shape-shifting to something more sinister, old-god-like (because snakes are evil, duh :P ). That's more of a style difference though, nothing else (like troll shamans turning into a ghost wind serpent instead of a wolf or something).

Uhhh, no. They're snakey because their master, Naralex, is stuck in the Emerald Dream and his nightmares are affecting the Caverns as a whole. That's sort of the entire point of the instance. There's a very tenuous connection to the Old Gods, in that the Nightmare is supposedly Old-God in origin, but there's no direct or deliberate Old God influence, there.

As a complete aside; there's only one culture that sees snakes as "evil" in the real world; Christian-based cultures (due to the Adam and Eve story, of course). Pretty close to every other culture that uses snake symbolism attaches fairly positive characteristics to them. That's why the medical caduceus is a staff with twin snakes, for instance; the culture it originated in used snakes as symbols of wisdom.

As far as Elemental Lords/Old Gods go: I think they got corrupted by the old gods back then.

We know this isn't true for a host of reasons. Most critically, that the Titans locked them all away in a prison, rather than trying to free them. The Elemental forces are not inherently "good". The Elemental Spirits work to better the balance, not the victory of the Light. The Elementals themselves (not the same thing as the Spirits) are violently destructive beings; the root of their pacts with Shaman is that we bring to them a sense of order that they crave, and which they are unable to effect themselves.

Ragnaros was fighting for an old god back then, but isn't now. He has his own agenda.

That much is true; I don't think I ever claimed they were still working for the Old Gods, just that they had, originally.

Which is yet more proof that they AREN'T corrupted, since they still have their own agendas.

I am not entirely sure how a shaman using fire to fight against ragnaros works though (aside from logical imunity issues).

Ragnaros is made of fire. You're made of meat and bones. So's a bull. And that bull will totally wreck you. Being made of X does not mean you're immune to X.