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  1. #61
    Moderator Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    On the topic of "pvp gear should be better for pvp and pve gear should be better for pve". There's no reason whatsoever for this to be the case when we can instead have a system where gear is equivalent for both allowing for seamless transition between the two sides of the game.

    Heroic raiders wiping the floor with mediocre players is a problem with how much gear effects damage output which is why I suggested the ilvl squish. A heroic raider who knows how to PvP but is unable to put time into rated matches should easily be able to put up a fight or beat a 2.2k+ rated PvP'er.

    I have outlined the issue with the current system to the best of my ability. If people are unable to grasp what I'm trying to get at then I don't know what to say.
    Well, if he doesn't put time into RBG or Arenas, then no gear, no gear means he can be bait. There shouldn't be able to be a line across from pve to pvp. If that is how I read it. If a heroic raider wants to pvp, well, get in the queue for BG's and Arenas and get some gear.
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  2. #62
    Moderator Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    The reason those PvE items were mandatory was because they provided benefits that weren't flat stats like any trinket nowadays. Which is why there's no QQ about pve gear in pvp right now. And why there wasn't QQ about pve gear in pvp in s5, s6, s7, s9 or s10.

    The trinkets available from PvP right now are equivalent to those available from PvE. If they continue to not add gimmicky PvE items it'll be fine.

    One way or another, if pvp stats were completely removed, we could actually see an influx of those types of items through pvp instead of blizzard wants.
    Reason for not much QQ about PvE gear in PvP is basic. If you wear PvE gear, then you do a ton of damage, but you will also be the most squishy one on the field. Hence we laugh and pop a cooldown, nuke the PvE geared and go back to the real fight.
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  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by mmmmmmmBacon View Post
    So you're saying that PvE players, who in some cases can clear a heroic raid within weeks of it being released, should be allowed to go into Arena or Rated Battlegrounds with their heroic ilvl gear which is then transmuted into high-tier pvp gear against players who normally have to pvp for months before finishing their sets? Effectively making it pointless to aim for pvp gear at all?

    And vice-versa, if a group of low-skill pvpers who have finished their sets of gear after taking months to acquire it, walks into a raid and has their gear turned into heroic tier gear, and doesn't have to deal with weeks of farming the gear and is able to complete the raid after getting mechanics down?

    No.
    This has been the case for literally every season ever. PvE gear is ALWAYS available before PvP gear. Even with the current system this is the case so your argument is completely invalid. This is an issue with PvP gear gating.

    The current system makes it so that the heroic alternatives are baseline stronger than tier 2 weapons. The suggestion I made would make it so that PvP gear would not be forced to be a lower ilvl. And so a tier 1 malevolent weapon could compete with normal mode HEART OF FEAR weapons (as in ilvl 496) and tier 2 would be ilvl 509. This would make mogu'shan palace gear obsolete but that's just how all over the place current pve tiers are. I'd say that mogu'shan palace should be brought up to the other two raids' ilvl.
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  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Reason for not much QQ about PvE gear in PvP is basic. If you wear PvE gear, then you do a ton of damage, but you will also be the most squishy one on the field. Hence we laugh and pop a cooldown, nuke the PvE geared and go back to the real fight.
    That's NOT how it works though. Because a PvP geared player has greater defense against the PvE geared player AND deals more damage to them too. The separation and gear gap between pve and pvp is bigger than ever when blizzard's stated goal was to make the two more equal.
    Quote Originally Posted by High Overlord Saurfang
    "I am he who watches they. I am the fist of retribution. That which does quell the recalcitrant. Dare you defy the Warchief? Dare you face my merciless judgement?"
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  5. #65
    Moderator Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    This has been the case for literally every season ever. PvE gear is ALWAYS available before PvP gear. Even with the current system this is the case so your argument is completely invalid. This is an issue with PvP gear gating.

    The current system makes it so that the heroic alternatives are baseline stronger than tier 2 weapons. The suggestion I made would make it so that PvP gear would not be forced to be a lower ilvl. And so a tier 1 malevolent weapon could compete with normal mode HEART OF FEAR weapons (as in ilvl 496) and tier 2 would be ilvl 509. This would make mogu'shan palace gear obsolete but that's just how all over the place current pve tiers are. I'd say that mogu'shan palace should be brought up to the other two raids' ilvl.
    But, it's PvP gear, ilvl doens't matter. It's the stats. It's only for PvE that you have the whole ilvl problem. And yes, PvE gear can appear as more tempting, but there's bad results to the so called good choices.
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  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Well, if he doesn't put time into RBG or Arenas, then no gear, no gear means he can be bait. There shouldn't be able to be a line across from pve to pvp. If that is how I read it. If a heroic raider wants to pvp, well, get in the queue for BG's and Arenas and get some gear.
    WHY should this be the case? Why shouldn't an exceptional PvP'er be able to jump right into a heroic raid if he's good enough? Why shouldn't a heroic raider be able to jump onto a 2.2k rbg team if he's good enough?
    Quote Originally Posted by High Overlord Saurfang
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  7. #67
    Moderator Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    That's NOT how it works though. Because a PvP geared player has greater defense against the PvE geared player AND deals more damage to them too. The separation and gear gap between pve and pvp is bigger than ever when blizzard's stated goal was to make the two more equal.
    But they shouldn't be equal. They shouldn't even be compared within the same field. It's PvP and PvE. The gear has bonuses for their field. And blizzard never said that they would make it equal. They said that they would give you a base stat of resilience so all may have a chance for surviving a bit longer in PvP
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  8. #68
    Can't help myself even if I get banned. This is the most retarded thread I have ever seen, and people like you are what's wrong with this game.
    All I can say is you severely need to LEARN TO PLAY. Healers at the moment are nowhere near immortal status, but given they might need some tweaks all around to the CD"s they have or another 5% ( ?! ) blanket nerf, and this should only happen once priests are brought in line with the others.
    Furthermore to people complaining about pvp gear having better stats than heroic dungeons, you must be the ones that were dropped as kids. What you are comparing is Heroic Dungeon gear to Normal Raid gear and saying why does it have better stats. Just mind you're own God damn business in your LFR / Raids and stay out of pvp. You can get 1 offpiece item / week by just getting the cap which you should instantly replace if you are able to clear anything on normal.
    The current pvp items have the potential to make this expac the best so far, but there are classes that first need to be addressed ( BM, Warrs, Spriest, Disc - they need buffs unlike the first 3 ).

  9. #69
    Moderator Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    WHY should this be the case? Why shouldn't an exceptional PvP'er be able to jump right into a heroic raid if he's good enough? Why shouldn't a heroic raider be able to jump onto a 2.2k rbg team if he's good enough?
    If they are good enough, then they should have the gear. Sorry, but it's an ancient discussion, it's been for every expansion almost. And it would still not go.
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  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    But, it's PvP gear, ilvl doens't matter. It's the stats. It's only for PvE that you have the whole ilvl problem. And yes, PvE gear can appear as more tempting, but there's bad results to the so called good choices.
    The raid weapons are undeniably better than the pvp alternatives. There's no question about it. Tier 1 pvp weapons are comparable to LFR weapons. Tier 2 pvp weapons are comparable to normal mode loot (the comparisons being made here are with terrace of endless spring and heart of fear loot, not with mogu'shan palace because by the time most pvp'ers end up getting their weapons those raids will be on farm).
    Quote Originally Posted by High Overlord Saurfang
    "I am he who watches they. I am the fist of retribution. That which does quell the recalcitrant. Dare you defy the Warchief? Dare you face my merciless judgement?"
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  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    If they are good enough, then they should have the gear. Sorry, but it's an ancient discussion, it's been for every expansion almost. And it would still not go.
    Wait what? The entire "I log on to raid but want to get into competitive pvp now" argument seems to fall on deaf ears. Regardless, we're derailing the point of the thread.

    Which is that removal of pvp stats would make PVP MORE BALANCED.
    Quote Originally Posted by High Overlord Saurfang
    "I am he who watches they. I am the fist of retribution. That which does quell the recalcitrant. Dare you defy the Warchief? Dare you face my merciless judgement?"
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  12. #72
    Where did they say they want it to be more equal? They said they will make it not as bad by giving everyone a 40% baseline res, so you don't get one shot. If you get two or three shot then thats ok in their eyes it is pvp. The rest is how the classes are designed, I can still get killed in full pvp by pve players if I am constant CC by casters or kited. Why don't they just bring back pvp gear before bc where there were no res and pvp stats then what will people say? I don't want to pve, it feels nice to pvp against pve players on a pvp server who bring pve gear that they are doing it wrong.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    The reason those PvE items were mandatory was because they provided benefits that weren't flat stats like any trinket nowadays. Which is why there's no QQ about pve gear in pvp right now. And why there wasn't QQ about pve gear in pvp in s5, s6, s7, s9 or s10.

    The trinkets available from PvP right now are equivalent to those available from PvE. If they continue to not add gimmicky PvE items it'll be fine.

    One way or another, if pvp stats were completely removed, we could actually see an influx of those types of items through pvp instead of blizzard wants.
    No qq about pve gear in pvp during s6/s7? PvE gear in arena was a problem that was rampant during the entirety of Wrath of the Lich King.

    http://www.wowhead.com/item=47059

    Back then, Solace gave mp5, and back then you could stack both the normal version and heroic version of the trinket. Human priests when that was released were a nightmare to fight against, because their mana pool was limitless. You could then pair them with a holy paladin (who could also have double solace) and a warrior stacking as much armor pen through pve gear where he could and rule the 3s bracket with an iron fist.

    A mage in an RMP could destroy people in a shatter combo with http://www.wowhead.com/item=47316 without any assistance from the mage at all.

    There is no issue currently about pve gear in pvp because right now pvp gear is tuned to a point where it is better than pve gear in the options of putting out damage and healing, along with reducing damage from other players, instead of it only being a survivability issue, and you could choose to wear pve gear for more damage only sacrificing damage reduction against players.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by mmmmmmmBacon View Post
    No qq about pve gear in pvp during s6/s7? PvE gear in arena was a problem that was rampant during the entirety of Wrath of the Lich King.

    http://www.wowhead.com/item=47059

    Back then, Solace gave mp5, and back then you could stack both the normal version and heroic version of the trinket. Human priests when that was released were a nightmare to fight against, because their mana pool was limitless. You could then pair them with a holy paladin (who could also have double solace) and a warrior stacking as much armor pen through pve gear where he could and rule the 3s bracket with an iron fist.

    A mage in an RMP could destroy people in a shatter combo with http://www.wowhead.com/item=47316 without any assistance from the mage at all.

    There is no issue currently about pve gear in pvp because right now pvp gear is tuned to a point where it is better than pve gear in the options of putting out damage and healing, along with reducing damage from other players, instead of it only being a survivability issue, and you could choose to wear pve gear for more damage only sacrificing damage reduction against players.
    I'll admit I was wrong on the no qq about pve gear in pvp in s6/s7 but everything you just said proved the rest of my post about gimmicky pve items and lack of pvp alternatives being the problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by High Overlord Saurfang
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  15. #75
    Moderator Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    Wait what? The entire "I log on to raid but want to get into competitive pvp now" argument seems to fall on deaf ears. Regardless, we're derailing the point of the thread.

    Which is that removal of pvp stats would make PVP MORE BALANCED.
    But it wouldn't make it balance as I said a few posts back, then people with PvE gear can just wander in and rough up and act like they were geared for it all along. PvP stats are there for a reason, make it competitive and also make a gap between pve and pvp. No matter what. And it's almost balanced as we speak. There are some classes that needs tweaks here and there, but all can be killed.
    Last edited by Gehco; 2012-10-28 at 09:01 AM.
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  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Romeo83x View Post
    You can't kill fully PvP geared healers as it is already. If you made damage output even weaker healers would become even more immortal than they are now.
    Sure you can, just roll a Destro lock.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    I am not at all convinced that this current system is even better than the Cataclysm one. I'd argue it's the worst PvP gearing system we've seen to date with how majorly it exacerbates the burst healing and damage problems DESPITE it being lower ilvl than the PvE counterparts.

    We are now working with end game pvp maximum of 20% damage reduction through resilience (the lowest it's literally ever been in the history of this game) along with healers obtaining benefits that they absolutely do not need from PvP power.
    It's better 'cause no one liked the PvE gear stacking in PvP.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    But it wouldn't make it balance as I said a few posts back, then people with PvE gear can just wander in and rough up and act like they were geared for it all along. PvP stats are there for a reason, make it competitive and also make a gap between pve and pvp. No matter what. And it's almost balance as we speak. There are some classes that needs tweaks here and there, but all can be killed.
    PvE geared players can come in and beat the PvP geared players if they're any good. There's no reason that a PvE player who is skilled in PvP should lose to a mediocre PvP player based 100% on gear which is how it is right now; so much so in fact that the discrepancy has never been greater. Even in cataclysm a pve geared player would have stood a better chance against a pvp geared opponent.

    On the "pvp gear shouldn't have ilvl". Realize that the stat point allotment on an item is based on it's ilvl. Which is why pvp gear having equivalent ilvl to pve gear would equalize the playing field.

    The only thing that would cause a potential problem is ease of access. If gear is easier to get from raiding then pvp would be hurting. But the fact of the matter is that it isn't. Normal mode raids are just as prestigious and provide gear at a similar pace to arenas done for points. The same is true for lfr and battlegrounds and the same is true for heroic raiding and 2.2k+ rated play. IF there are any discrepancies in the rate at which gear is obtained through either, changes can be made to point caps so that gear can be accessed faster or slower. The difference would lie in the fact that pvp is a more reliable way to obtain gear whereas raids are reliant on luck which is why as of right now raids provide gear slightly faster than pvp.
    Quote Originally Posted by High Overlord Saurfang
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  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    As such, a full PvP geared player will do more damage to another fully PvP geared player than they would without any PvP gear at all.
    Grats on skipping math at school.
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  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Chaozu View Post
    It isn't lower level though, the items I compared has the exact same item lvl.

    Malovent is 483, normal raiding gear is 489, hardly enough to compensate for the fact that PvP gear also has PvP power and resilience.
    and why exactly do you want them to be "useless" in pve?
    also, pvp items are lower item level than it's pve counterpart, compare dreadful to 463 heroics.
    (random bg = random heroic for pvp/pve)

    edit: so you're basically saying you want the items to be as they were in cata?
    'cause that didn't work out too well with pve items being best in pvp and all.
    Last edited by Woop Woop; 2012-10-28 at 09:16 AM.

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