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  1. #121
    Bloodsail Admiral nerdjames's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    Burst is a major problem. PvP gear only makes it worse.

    Contrary to popular belief, more PvP gear does not address the burst issue. In fact, it exacerbates it further due to there being more PvP power on gear than PvP resilience. As such, a full PvP geared player will do more damage to another fully PvP geared player than they would without any PvP gear at all. In fact, as it is right now the difference between a fresh PvP player and someone decked out is more massive than ever before.

    Thus, I propose that with the advent of baseline PvP resilience, we should consider telling Blizzard to remove PvP stats from PvP gear.

    To address ilvl issues, I'd say that random battlegrounds should necessitate a slightly greater grind and provide LFR quality loot. Malevolent gladiator gear should be about equal to normal mode gear but I'd say should be gated behind ratings once again; nothing substantial, just something like a min 1600 requirement for a pvp weapon (recall it used to be 1800). Elite gear should once again provide greater stats equivalent to heroic raid gear. The gating involved in PvP already ensures that high ranked players will not get their gear before heroic raiders; this will just make sure that the vice versa is true as well.

    I also think ilvl squish should have happened because the difference between a full dreadful geared player with a 463 weapon against a full malevolent geared player with any slight non-pvp weapon upgrade is huge. But that's a different topic.

    Good point treelife. I think removal of PvP power would fix this though (if hasn't stopped effecting healing already that is). Heals all around do need a nerf on top of the removal of PvP power though. That's an issue that wouldn't really be effected positively nor negatively with my proposed change.

    Burst largely isn't a problem. Stampede is broken, stacked warrior CDs are too good if you can't avoid them, and deep freeze is still pretty scary. Aside from that, it's possible to keep yourself alive through a 20 second chain of instant CCs on your healer. Far from broken burst.

    You also can't get rid of PvP stats because you disagree with their tuning. The whole point of PvP power, resilience, and baseline resilience is that they can drastically scale any factor in PvP without it affecting the rest of the game. If burst was too high across the board, resilience would get a buff. They could also nerf PvP power, but then real stats might come out better and I don't think they want that.

    The "ilvl squish" was a proposed solution to large item level jumps between expansions. It has nothing to do with the gap between two ilvl tiers (which hasn't changed, btw). Furthermore, the difference between ungeared and geared players is much much smaller than in the past due to baseline resilience. Any gear difference will always be a huge disadvantage in PvP--that's just the nature of it--but an ungeared player can put up a better fight than ever before.

    Healers don't need a nerf either, or at least not to their throughput. Since you didn't specify, I'm assuming that's what you're talking about. What should probably drop is mana regen. As crappy as it feels to win just from ooming the other team's healer, games can be so long that I'd rather that be the case. Removing drinking would be a good start (or maybe enough). It doesn't show skill or poor strategy when you can drink; it's just the nature of the game that you'll be able to do it now.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Johnkie View Post
    Tbh that would be bloody retarded... Who would want to do pve to get pvp gear? and visa versa... TBH this is not a good suggestion.
    Rather tweak pvp power / pvp resilience to a prober level. Currently PVP power is the best stat, aka it needs nerf... Which it will i think.
    Bad suggestion is bad. nerfing pvp power will make the best pve gear more potent, buffing pvp resilence will fix it, along with some serious heal nerfs in RBG's where it is a problem with the cummulative healing, cc chains are required but so many healers can cast instants now and get away with it. Making those heals more expensive in pvp zones is a good idea too.
    Thats said i think heals should be treated differently in arenas and rbgs.

  3. #123
    The Lightbringer shise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Romeo83x View Post
    You can't kill fully PvP geared healers as it is already. If you made damage output even weaker healers would become even more immortal than they are now.
    As long as it's not a resto druid you can kill any healer.
    ------------------------

    However and to be honest, if my class was going aroud 1 shotting people I'd quit it or change spec... in arena the other day, full resi, a hunter ate me in 3 seconds, just as it sounds, and a warlock hotted me by 170k, followed by 60k+40k.... that's not even fun to play

  4. #124
    Mechagnome Shifthappens's Avatar
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    I like the way gear is now, if you want to raid use raiding gear if you want to PVP use pvp gear, i dont EVER wanna raid again for months without a drop to get weapons and trinkets just so i can performa tiny bit better in Arena.

    PS: you are NOT ment to be able to solo healers, what would be the point of teamwork? and thats what they balance it on
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  5. #125
    This thread should be locked, "Remove PvP Stats from PvP Gear" is basicaly stupid statement.

  6. #126
    They need to leave the PvP stats alone on PvP gear however, they should lower the primary stat on them - INT, STR, etc.
    I do not suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.

  7. #127
    PvP stats aren't there for balance. It's for gating.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by aastarius View Post
    They need to leave the PvP stats alone on PvP gear however, they should lower the primary stat on them - INT, STR, etc.
    Simpler just to increase the amount of resil on the gear if one truly wanted to lower the damage done in pvp settings.

    Reason being; no one wants to feel over-gimped wearing it in pve.

    Suggesting that the removal of PVP power from pvp gear would yield anything but disappointing results and an influx of pve gear yet again into arena settings is silly.

    One thing i do agree with; rating requirements for individual items.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shahada View Post
    The devs aren't stupid.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Chaozu View Post
    If you're reffering to me on the second one, 6 item level difference is not enough to justify "well PvP gear has lower item lvl in comparison" when PvP gear also has PvP Power and PvP resilience.
    This is factually untrue. 'Normal Raid Gear' is not mogushan vaults. Normal raid gear is the gear dropping from Heart of Fear and Terrace. Those instances drop ilvl 496, and the tier gear is ilvl 496. It's a full tier lower than normal gear, and there's no heroic version of it, where there is heroic pve gear. If it was changed in such a way that PvP gear is only slightly better than PvE gear for PvP, then Heroic gear would overshadow PvP gear entirely. Blizzard said that they wanted it to be less of a huge deal to bring pvp gear into pve, and vice versa. If PvP gear is currently just slightly suboptimal compared to normal PvE gear, I'd say things are probably exactly where they should be in that department. Clearly the problem is that PvE gear needs to be more competitive in PvP, perhaps in such a way that heroic PvE gear is just below Malevolent gear in effectiveness. But then again, no one has full heroic gear, so maybe that's already the case. But regardless, there is no reason for PvP gear to be nerfed just because it's better than heroic 5man gear, when it's clearly supposed to be.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by StationaryHawk View Post
    I'm not sure PvPers would want PvE gear to be effective (maybe even more effective) in PvP, and vice versa.
    This is the exact issue i have with pvp gear, It splits the game into 2 groups.
    Now we World of warcraft + pvp. When i think world of warcraft, I think about epic dungeons
    To me, it would feel far more rewarding to kill a gigantic monster, Receive epic gear and later kick players ass with my hard earned reward.
    Because of pvp gear, I have to do this boring route, collecting points.
    I like both pvp and pve. It sux the game forces me to choose either one if i want to go for top gearing.

  11. #131
    Healer nerf is 30% from battle fatigue now + whatever kind of "mortal strike" kind of debuff will be applied to a target and you are telling me you still cannot burst down a healer with full pvp gear + weapon? That sounds like a different issue entirely, not healing absurdity.

    1v1 doesn't count, most of the times neither does 2v1. Remember, healers have cooldowns too. You cannot expect to destroy a healer right away (especially if its only 1v1). It shouldn't ever be that way in pvp unless the healer is extremely undergeared.

    Damage burst, on the other hand, is what's really out of control.
    Last edited by Theholypally; 2013-01-01 at 11:17 AM.

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  12. #132
    Moderator Nicola's Avatar
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    Remove PvP power and the next thing you'll see are people with heroic PvE weapons and trinkets that faceroll to the top...
    I reached 3k rating last season on my warlock and 2.7k on my rogue because of legendaries and hc trinkets, dropping people in the opener because of overpowered PvE gear wasn't fun. Because of PvP power, you likely won't use PvE gear in PvP anymore unless the PvE gear becomes stupidly overpowered of course so lets not remove it >.>

  13. #133
    If they remove PvP stats then we would be back to the classic days when PvE players were owning the PvP players because raiding gear was better and more accessible than marshal/warlord gear.

    Instead of removing PvP stats, I think they should just make resilience better than it already is.

  14. #134
    The Lightbringer Ermahgerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jnax View Post
    This is the exact issue i have with pvp gear, It splits the game into 2 groups.
    Now we World of warcraft + pvp. When i think world of warcraft, I think about epic dungeons
    To me, it would feel far more rewarding to kill a gigantic monster, Receive epic gear and later kick players ass with my hard earned reward.
    Because of pvp gear, I have to do this boring route, collecting points.
    I like both pvp and pve. It sux the game forces me to choose either one if i want to go for top gearing.
    Except the PvP community is a lot different than the PvE community. We PvP players don't do PvE regularly because we PvP more. If we have to do PvE too, to be able to be viable in PvP that means we have to do BOTH PvE AND PvP to enjoy what we enjoy. If you're a general PvE player and want to PvP properly then you have to gear up for PvP too. If I want to be viable in PvE, I also have to gear for PvE seperately else people won't even take me into a group.

    Besides, I've been PvPing as boomkin in FULL PvE gear (ilvl 469) and I've been doing just fine actually. Just saying.

  15. #135
    Hell to the no.

    this would simply take us back several expansions to where pve heroes with no pvp skill can dominate through high level PVE gear. absolutely not.

  16. #136
    Bloodsail Admiral nerdjames's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jnax View Post
    This is the exact issue i have with pvp gear, It splits the game into 2 groups.
    Now we World of warcraft + pvp. When i think world of warcraft, I think about epic dungeons
    To me, it would feel far more rewarding to kill a gigantic monster, Receive epic gear and later kick players ass with my hard earned reward.
    Because of pvp gear, I have to do this boring route, collecting points.
    I like both pvp and pve. It sux the game forces me to choose either one if i want to go for top gearing.
    I agree it would be cool from an accessibility perspective if the game just had one type of gear, but there's no way to implement that without upsetting someone. In your current predicament, the solution is to PvP more. You'll get honor or conquest points and be able to collect PvP gear with it. You claim you like PvP, so that shouldn't really be a huge inconvenience. The other solutions are less elegant. Either PvP rewards inferior, incomplete, or no gear and PvPers are forced to PvE just to gear for PvP, or PvP gear is so good that PvEers are forced to arena just to collect top-tier equipment for their PvE while they work through hardmodes.

    If you like PvE and PvP, do both and get rewarded with gear for both. Unless your idea of PvP is just ganking people while they're trying to level, there are avenues in place to get you your equipment. I understand there can be a pretty large time investment if you want to grind out honor gear, but you could also just skip that and cap conquest in low-mmr 2v2 until you have a fair bit of arena gear.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    A 15%+ reduction in damage/healing from removal of pvp power would alone nerf burst in cooldowns by a very large amount for both damage and healing.
    and then you would see pvp'rs having to pve to pvp yet again, that is why pvp power was added, its the only "correct" thing blizz has done for pvp as whole in a very long time.

    As for complaining about healers is just a bad joke now a days with every class being designed around near instant gib cd usage and the problem in current pvp format is cd stacking outside overall lack of spec being remotely balanced.

    although I would suggest a healer mana regen reduction in some format on pvp gear
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  18. #138
    Why not remove PvP power, keep resilience, and make PvE gear Ilvl scale when in ranked matches? That way you'll almost never have any PvE gear that's superior to PvP since the former would always be toned down to a certain threshold. And as I recall, people were able to kill healers before MoP, when PvP power didn't exist.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nivrax View Post
    You may be on to something here... GC claimed Ret Paladins killed his parents. Could it be that Warlocks drained Celas' dog soul?

  19. #139
    Could everyone just do themselves a favour and read this?

  20. #140
    Resillence stat is in itself better per point compared to PvP power. PvP Power and Resillence are not accounted for in the iLvl budget, if they were a T2 PvP weapon would be equivalent to about 510 iLvl.

    My monk is currently sitting at 67% Resil and 64% PvP Power T2 weapons. During my damage test in random BGs if someone without resillence comes to me I can pretty much Rising Sun Kick, Tiger Palm to a Fist of Fury kill them. Fresh 90s just die from one Fist of Fury. I could push my PvP power up to 72-74% if I wanted too but I'd prefer having more survivability.

    Problem with PvP now is Power scaling off Main stat, and Skill coefficient being out of whack. Healers being immortal cause they benefit from Resillence, Main Stat AND PvP Power and partly cause there is really no point in juking now cause it's risky and you'd take so little damage stacking resillence its better to let them interrupt and free cast when their interrupts are down. Most easy kills on healers now are those who still juke.

    Oh and 220k Rising Sun CriKicks on fresh 90s is sorta... interesting is how I would put it. Fist of Fury ticking for 90-110k Crits. So I'd expect similar level geared warlock Chaos Bolt would just be nighty time for those poor saps.

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