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  1. #81
    Moderator Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    PvE geared players can come in and beat the PvP geared players if they're any good. There's no reason that a PvE player who is skilled in PvP should lose to a mediocre PvP player based 100% on gear which is how it is right now; so much so in fact that the discrepancy has never been greater. Even in cataclysm a pve geared player would have stood a better chance against a pvp geared opponent.

    On the "pvp gear shouldn't have ilvl". Realize that the stat point allotment on an item is based on it's ilvl. Which is why pvp gear having equivalent ilvl to pve gear would equalize the playing field.

    The only thing that would cause a potential problem is ease of access. If gear is easier to get from raiding then pvp would be hurting. But the fact of the matter is that it isn't. Normal mode raids are just as prestigious and provide gear at a similar pace to arenas done for points. The same is true for lfr and battlegrounds and the same is true for heroic raiding and 2.2k+ rated play. IF there are any discrepancies in the rate at which gear is obtained through either, changes can be made to point caps so that gear can be accessed faster or slower. The difference would lie in the fact that pvp is a more reliable way to obtain gear whereas raids are reliant on luck which is why as of right now raids provide gear slightly faster than pvp.
    But why shouldn't a medicore PvP'er be able to beat a PvE'er? The PvE'er is bringing the wrong equipment to an obvious fight. So if he's skilled in PvP, then he should know that there's advantages with PvP gear and should use that advantage instead of being the hard hitting marshmellow. You can easily obtain a full set of honor pvp gear within 1-2 days if you want to. And PvE gear is rewarded through team work in raids.

    I can't see why a gap should be filled just so a (sorry to say) lazy person can go from PvE and directly into high PvP. If you want a slice of the pie, get in queue and change your knife for a spoon.

    Blizzard gave you the gift of changing valor to conquest in Cataclysm, they have removed it for now in Mists of Pandaria, but it'll surely return as it helped the PvE'ers into PvP by allowing them to trade points. If that returns, then I don't mind if they trade points to get gear.

    And the reason PvE gear players many times stood better chances against PvP geared is because of the greater damage done, but you would still be an easy target and therefor taking down first. It's all about appearing in the right outfit.
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  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    PvE geared players can come in and beat the PvP geared players if they're any good. There's no reason that a PvE player who is skilled in PvP should lose to a mediocre PvP player based 100% on gear which is how it is right now; so much so in fact that the discrepancy has never been greater. Even in cataclysm a pve geared player would have stood a better chance against a pvp geared opponent.
    Only partial truth here. You take any 2800+ player in equal-tier pve gear fighting an 1800 player in pvp gear, and the 2800 player will mop the floor with the other. Problem being when you take that it's not a 1v1 all the time, and throw in the imbalances that warriors, hunters, mages, and others have with the amount of damage they can dish out in a single global cooldown; but that's another beast in it's own.

    And it really is no real issue for high end pvpers to not have the pvp gear they need. Grinding out battlegrounds for the low-tier gear can take at most a week, and less than 2 days for a determined player who can carry his team when he needs to. About the same rate a PvE player can get his starter gear from heroic dungeons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    The only thing that would cause a potential problem is ease of access. If gear is easier to get from raiding then pvp would be hurting. But the fact of the matter is that it isn't. Normal mode raids are just as prestigious and provide gear at a similar pace to arenas done for points. The same is true for lfr and battlegrounds and the same is true for heroic raiding and 2.2k+ rated play. IF there are any discrepancies in the rate at which gear is obtained through either, changes can be made to point caps so that gear can be accessed faster or slower. The difference would lie in the fact that pvp is a more reliable way to obtain gear whereas raids are reliant on luck which is why as of right now raids provide gear slightly faster than pvp.
    The bit about how normal mode raids are as prestigious to arenas and whatnot: not true for all servers.

    PvPers should be left to getting their pvp gear from pvp, and PvE players their pve gear from pve, and have their respective gear be the best option for progressing in them.
    Last edited by mmmmmmmBacon; 2012-10-28 at 09:21 AM.

  3. #83
    Or you know they could just make a default set of baseline stats that are forced onto everyone in bg's/arena and make all the item sets for Vanity only.

    You know, to help keep the playing field leveled to the point that skill>gear

  4. #84
    Removing PvP stats from PvP gear is a bad idea. PvP resilience and PvP power are easy ways for Blizzard to tune the damage/healing in PvP environment. Sure, they could increase/decrease the effectiveness of these stats. But removing them, no, bad idea.

  5. #85
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    The only thing flawed about the current design is that healers both benefit from healing power and damage reduction.

    Lets assume a current example of a well geared PvP player who stacks PvP power (I've taken this example from my own armory):

    59% resilience
    39% PvP power

    Assuming I am attacking someone who has the exact same stats as me, I will recieve 0,41*1,39=0,63 of his damage, or a damage reduction of 37%.
    So we can see there is a small bias towards taking extra damage, because both of us decided to stack PvP power (through gemming), because by only wearing PvE gear we would both be having a 40% baseline damage reduction (40%>37%).


    Now lets take an example of a healer. Assuming the same amount of stats he would still be having a 37% damage reduction against me. But since he is a healer, his heals are suddenly 39% as powerful as well (from PvP power). Since my spells only deals 63% damage, but his healing spells heals for 139%, my spells are suddenly 0,63/139 = 45% as effective as his (whereas before we had a 1/1 ratio in a dps vs dps scenario). From his point of view his spells are 120% stronger than mine (139/63=220).

    Assuming only PvE gear with a baseline of 40% resilience my spells would be 60% effective and his healing spells 100% effective, meaning a 0,60 ratio. From his point of view his spells are 66% stronger than mine (100/60=166).


    So lets take a look back on everything:

    His healing spells went from 166% to 220%. That is a 32,5% increase.

    My damage spells went from being 60% to 63%. That is a 5% increase.

    So obviously healing scales much much quicker than damage in this scenario. And this should be one of the very reasons why healers are currently so strong.


    Correct me if there's anything wrong about my post.

    ------------

    Edit: And obviously the 15% healing nerf doesn't change anything about the current scaling issue. It's only a fix in the short run, but once players upgrade their gear from blue to epic quality, or even worse, once a new season arrives, this scaling issue will appear even more flawed.

    Assuming 15% healing the stats would still be the same.

    166%*0,85 = 141%, 220%*0,85=187%, (187/141-1)*100 = 32,5% - nothing changed when it comes to scaling.
    Last edited by Funkthepunk; 2012-10-28 at 07:52 PM.

  6. #86
    If I remember right, PvP Power is half as effective for it's healing, and there is also the 30% reduction to all healing done in PvP zones, arenas and battlegrounds.

  7. #87
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmmmmmmBacon View Post
    If I remember right, PvP Power is half as effective for it's healing, and there is also the 30% reduction to all healing done in PvP zones, arenas and battlegrounds.
    Sorry, but according to this thread you are wrong: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6490579264 -
    PVP Power's returns are perfectly linear, you gain 1% damage/healing for every 265 PVP Power
    And if you check my post again you would notice that I in the end include the 15% healing nerf in my calculations, which infact doesn't change scaling at all.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Funkthepunk View Post
    Sorry, but according to this thread you are wrong: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6490579264 -

    And if you check my post again you would notice that I in the end include the 15% healing nerf in my calculations, which infact doesn't change scaling at all.
    The main posts in that thread have not been updated since the 14th of september. I'm not exactly positive on PvP power being half value, but there is certainly a nerf to healing at the least, otherwise my heals would be a deal stronger, where instead they break even.

  9. #89
    I call bull on the op's statement. Ilvl 483 is better than HC dungeon gear, yes, but worse than raid finder gear in PvE.

    so for pve: ilvl 463 hc gear - ilvl 483 pvp gear - ilvl 476+ pve gear

    that is because, even though the main stats (haste, crit, mastery) is lower on pvp gear than pve, to compensate for the pvp power and resillience, 20 ilvl means a lot, where as the 7 ilvl from raidfinder to Malevolant is so small, that the main stats (except stamina in some cases) and secondary stats is higher on the raidfinder gear.

    there is a few exception i have seen, with a few neck and so, where the pvp gear was still better than raidfinder, but i currently use pvp chest and shoulder, but i will change that out as soon as i get a ilvl 476 pve of them, because they are better.

  10. #90
    The Lightbringer vian's Avatar
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    Remove all the stats! Make gear visual only!
    Quote Originally Posted by bizzy View Post
    yeh but lava is just very hot water

  11. #91
    It's not the gear that's the problem, it's the cooldowns. Burst is FAR too high during them and too low outside of them.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Kejinx View Post
    It's not the gear that's the problem, it's the cooldowns. Burst is FAR too high during them and too low outside of them.
    A 15%+ reduction in damage/healing from removal of pvp power would alone nerf burst in cooldowns by a very large amount for both damage and healing.
    Quote Originally Posted by High Overlord Saurfang
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  13. #93
    do what guild wars 1 did. make all pvp gear equal.
    Quote Originally Posted by inboundpaper View Post
    The short answer is nope, the long answer is noooooooooooooooope.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaozu View Post
    Yet PvP gear has 6 stats, all the stats PvE gear has PLUS two more:
    Dreadful Gladiator's Drape of Prowess, item level 458:
    717 stamina
    478 Intellect
    280 Haste
    342 Mastery
    220 PvP Power
    220 PvP resilience

    VS Cloak of Ancient Curses, item level 458:
    717 Stamina
    478 Intellect
    346 Haste
    272 Hit

    How come PvP gear has everything PvE gear has, and more? I have had to replace several of my heroic dungeon items because the Malevolent gear was better on all fronts, it was a complete upgrade in all stats, which is just bullshit.

    Either remove 1-2 stats from PvP gear, or add PvE power and PvE resilience to make PvP gear worthless in PvE. Or just let the gear be the same...
    You're comparing standard pvp gear with CRAP PvE gear? Compare it with raid gear and then compare the best PvP gear with heroic gear.
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  15. #95
    Epic! Demetrion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaozu View Post
    I'm not, but I am wearing two pieces of PvP gear in my PvE set because they were a lot better on all fronts than the respective PvE pieces I had.

    The main issue I feel is that, say that you have a full set of PvP gear and enter PvE. You will not be missing out on any stats at all, have everything that a raid set would give you, except it's item level is slightly lower. Unnoticable unless you are progressing on a boss and only getting it to 1 %.

    Comparing this scenario to a person entering PvP in full raid gear, he will get slaughtered because he has no resilience and power.

    Have I made myself clear enough now? Or do I have to attempt to simplify it even more?
    On the set issues in PVE/PVP, I have to disagree with you, and here's why:

    PVP gear lacks hit, lots of it. There is no way for a PVP guy to reach 15% hit cap as a caster or the hit/expertise cap as a DPS, which will result in massive DPS loss no matter how skilled player is.

    PVP gear has PVP oriented socket bonuses which mainly grants more PVP resilience or PVP power, where PVE gear tends to give you almost best stats for your class (primary stat or some very good secondary).

    PVP set bonuses aren't good for PVP. Some classes however have very good bonuses (Holy Paladin for example), but rest are complete garbage (resilience for 4 seconds after shielding the target as Discipline). PVE set bonuses will always be better for almost every class and will always outperform PVP.

    If you have full set of PVP gear you will want to gem it for PVP. For most classes gems with PVP power/resilience will always be better than other stats (for most DPS classes PVP power gems are far superior than pure DPS stats as agy, str, int).

    This comparison looks almost equal on paper. If you put the right gems the difference between haste/mastery/intellect will be a few points in PVE legs favor. But if you have full PVP set you will want it to be as possibly effective in PVP, so you will gem it with proper gems which have PVP power and resilience, effectively cutting you more DPS stats.

    All in all person which enters PVE in full PVP gear (properly gemmed and enchanted) will feel exactly poor as it would be the case with PVE geared player in PVP.
    The difference in stat which wasn't that big at first, is now huge and the person will under perform and drag a group down in it's progress on same way the PVE geared player would drag a group down from winning an arena/battlegroun.

    However, myself have always bought that one piece of gear from PVP which never would drop in PVE for me to fill the gap, the same way I'm wearing PVE item until I get PVP one.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Chaozu View Post
    Yet PvP gear has 6 stats, all the stats PvE gear has PLUS two more:
    Dreadful Gladiator's Drape of Prowess, item level 458:
    717 stamina
    478 Intellect
    280 Haste
    342 Mastery
    220 PvP Power
    220 PvP resilience

    VS Cloak of Ancient Curses, item level 458:
    717 Stamina
    478 Intellect
    346 Haste
    272 Hit

    How come PvP gear has everything PvE gear has, and more? I have had to replace several of my heroic dungeon items because the Malevolent gear was better on all fronts, it was a complete upgrade in all stats, which is just bullshit.

    Either remove 1-2 stats from PvP gear, or add PvE power and PvE resilience to make PvP gear worthless in PvE. Or just let the gear be the same...
    You mean, 458 honor PVP gear vs 464 heroic dungeon gear.
    483 malevolent gear vs 489-512 ilvl raid gear/heroic raid gear.
    yes pvp gears have way lower ilvl.

    Pvp gears are only useful in pve at the entry level (hence the start of every new expansion/tier. Once you start getting raid gear, they're totally garbadge. This is just what the developers want, easy entrance in PVE for PVPers and vice versa (with the build in damage reduction)
    Last edited by hplaner; 2012-10-28 at 06:42 PM.

  17. #97
    Guys, stop the PvE vs. PvP debate. The aim of this thread is to see constructive ideas on how to balance PvP be it through gearing, tweaking of current stats or changing abilities.
    Quote Originally Posted by High Overlord Saurfang
    "I am he who watches they. I am the fist of retribution. That which does quell the recalcitrant. Dare you defy the Warchief? Dare you face my merciless judgement?"
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  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Chaozu View Post
    "It's not our option of first resort because it's not intuitive for players and it means anytime we want to make balance adjustments, we must change two sets of numbers."
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...1500?page=2#22

    Ghostcrawler's response to that, I really disagree with him because it feels natural to let an ability, say Shadow Bolt, deal different base damages depending on if the target is a player or an NPC, and if anything it would be a LOT easier to balance the game if you worked with two numbers, not harder. Then you could nerf a class/spec for PvE purposes without it affecting PvP, and the other way around.
    I find it hard to believe this is truely their "last resort" as they have done it already to one warrior ability, and now are about to do it to two with the glyph of gag order change. I also agree that seperating damage coefficiencts depending on whether you are facing and NPC or a player is the easiest and most logical solution to the issues. They have obviously not come up with a better idea. Honestly, I don't think they are even trying that hard at this point. The outcrys from the community about this extreme imbalances leading to a broken pvp experience is all but ignored. Over a month in and they are making little changes here and there that utimately never address the true issues.

    And the excuse of "two numbers" is just disguisting. Yeah... it's very difficult I'm sure... /rollseyes

    Guess we should just wait for 5.1... but fuck that, I've been "waiting" per request of Blizzard defenders.

    "Wait for 85 we are balanced for cata... wait til the first content patch they will be balanced then.... wait til MoP beta to complain thats where they do their testing it will be balanced... its just beta wait til its live before you complain... its just 90 talents at 85 we arent balance for 85 just wait til 90... just wait til 5.1..."

    I've heard/read all this crap every time there is a discussion about balance and what, if anything, Blizzard will do about it. They usually choose to not do anything, and ignore blatant imbalances.

    This is a scary trend, IMO.


    P.S. Haven't actually read every post, but I felt like responding to the quoted portion, as I believe that it is the best way to approach this.

  19. #99
    I know that there has to be some reward for pvpers - some goal, in this case getting gear. But, I've always found it funny that Blizz gated their pvp gear so that anyone "fresh" or new or just not all that great at pvp was not only handicapped by their skill level, but fucking Blizzard handicaps them even more by giving high quality pvp gear only to those that don't need it.
    I would hate to be anyone new in WoW pvp ...

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by salamala View Post
    I know that there has to be some reward for pvpers - some goal, in this case getting gear. But, I've always found it funny that Blizz gated their pvp gear so that anyone "fresh" or new or just not all that great at pvp was not only handicapped by their skill level, but fucking Blizzard handicaps them even more by giving high quality pvp gear only to those that don't need it.
    I would hate to be anyone new in WoW pvp ...
    Why? If you're new to PVP you're unlikely to face anyone with T2 weapons cause of MMR - on the off chance that you do (boosting etc) you wouldn't stand a chance of winning anyway so it doesn't matter what gear they have. WoW PVP is very beginner friendly - MMR is a great way of putting beginners into matches that they stand some chance of winning.

    On topic, hell no - the concept of PVP stats is fine. I don't want to have to PVE at all and making the gear comparable would force me to raid so I could gear up quicker. I'd sooner wowquit than PVE, it was bad enough farming weapons for the start of the season.
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