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  1. #61
    High Overlord
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    I stated that as a fact because it is a fact.
    1
    : a thing done: as
    a obsolete : feat
    b : crime <accessory after the fact>
    c archaic : action
    2
    archaic : performance, doing
    3
    : the quality of being actual : actuality <a question of fact hinges on evidence>
    4
    a : something that has actual existence <space exploration is now a fact>
    b : an actual occurrence <prove the fact of damage>
    5
    : a piece of information presented as having objective reality
    — in fact
    : in truth


    Bolded the important part for you bro. Your opinion != fact, no matter how many anecdotes you have (Not that you are sharing any specific examples or anything)

  2. #62
    Legendary! Holo's Avatar
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    You overlooked the fact that my opinion wasn't an opinion but a fact. And therefore stated as such.

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  3. #63
    You say rogues do not need more damage and/or utility. Why is this a fact? It is what YOU think and that is and will always be an opinion, not a fact.

  4. #64
    Legendary! Holo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baharroth View Post
    You say rogues do not need more damage and/or utility. Why is this a fact? It is what YOU think and that is and will always be an opinion, not a fact.
    I was speaking as a fact of the mobility only, i do think the damage might be a discussion point. Although i do not see it as a primary concern at all.

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  5. #65
    let me see

    sprint -1min cd, easily can be countered.
    shadowstep -24 sec cd without breaking roots. easily can be countered.
    burst of speed- seems best choice. would be useful, if it werent goddamn 60/50 energy. even with that energy usage, it wont give full speed while rooted.

    I just had a look at your posts holo and as far as I ve seen, no explanation. I respect your opinion but still wondering why you re thinking that rogue mob is fine.

  6. #66
    Legendary! Holo's Avatar
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    I'll show you, going to try and see if i can record some gameplay and show you guys how you get around as a Rogue theise days.
    Give me a day or 3 though, just ordered Need for Speed digitally on Origin and intend to play it today :X

    You should remember that when your enemy is not mobile, you can (ab)use that oppertunity to get around where you need to be.

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  7. #67
    Mister Halo , I somewhat agree with you , from what it looks like our damage if fine(*asuming you set up everything perfectly, and even then its mediocre at best*) I think what everyone else is banging their head against the wall for is that other classes press like 1 button and everything dies , dont think I need to give out any examples so far , and also whlist you may be superior to most of the rogues in here I do not think you should fly around and telling everyone rogues are fine , because YOU think so.
    ps : What it feels like right now is like....before everyone was complaining about rogue stuns n slow and whatever crap rogues used in the past, now everyone has a upgraded/better version of the rogue abilities , I`ll be damned if they dont give smokebomb to everyone aswell soon enough
    ps2: being at work sucks thought of making this super long post to pass the time and like 2 mins passed , bad ideea i guess back to watching tv shows!

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Holo View Post
    I'll show you, going to try and see if i can record some gameplay and show you guys how you get around as a Rogue theise days.
    Give me a day or 3 though, just ordered Need for Speed digitally on Origin and intend to play it today :X

    You should remember that when your enemy is not mobile, you can (ab)use that oppertunity to get around where you need to be.
    Do so. I want to see why other top rogues have mobility issues but you don't. I'm not trying to provoke you, just being real. In some arena games I'm dealing so little damage because I spend all the time running back or rooted.
    Shadow Walk : Significantly increases Stealth effectiveness for 6 sec, but causes Stealth to be nerfed to justify its usage. In addition, it uses old Enveloping Shadows icon and has no sound, animation or spell effect to show that the skill is actually doing something.

  9. #69
    Last warning: stop the "Holo VS All" thing otherwise i'll lock and infract.

    And i'm really curious in looking Holo video tbh. As i said, i find perfectly reasonable that people can find rogues in current situation fine and fun to play. Otherwise i wouldn't be playing my rogue (even if i'd like a bit more dmg and surv since doing dailies takes sooooo loooong when i'm alone - in party they go fast as a breeze).

  10. #70
    Legendary! Holo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sendai View Post
    Do so. I want to see why other top rogues have mobility issues but you don't. I'm not trying to provoke you, just being real. In some arena games I'm dealing so little damage because I spend all the time running back or rooted.
    Sometimes going for a very mobile target is not an option. But that is just tactical play anyway. Because even trying would be a waste. No other melee can really catch up with those either anyways.

    And i get that people are frustrated with other classes having it so easy. The thing is, you shouldn't want that kind of power. It makes you play absolutely dull and you're not really earning any of the kills you make. Having a bigger than average challenge is what makes the PvP scene fun. Not walshing over people like a retard.

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  11. #71
    Legendary! Holo's Avatar
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    As promised, i've got some material coming up right now.

    Don't expect anything fancy though, my video editting skill is not very high and i did not bother to add voice or commentary.
    You can discuss the contents of the video with me here once it's done uploading and processing.

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  12. #72
    I am Murloc! Tomatketchup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anguished View Post
    Damn, that's pretty depressing too see how the feedback on Rogues has been pretty much completely neglected =/ Yes, we're playing Rogues, but I want it too feel like Cata did with Rogues, it was so fun. Hopefully this will get the attention that it deserves, especially after all the effort was put in.
    I honestly prefered the WotLK rogues, at least combat. Something about Cata combat rogues just felt bland. Probably the extreme amount of white damage and the uninteractable aspect of it (weapon specializations).

    But seriously, I quit my subscription after that blue post just saying "Rogues are fine". Way to ignore all the beta feedback that existed for over a half year, you idiot.
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  13. #73
    Legendary! Holo's Avatar
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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhLz1lEY6jw

    Here you go. Now i'm genuinely curious to hear how you think that mobility is bad.

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  14. #74
    Hrm. I'm still convinced our mobility sucks.

    First fight, the DK attacks you. I don't see him trying to escape, so mobility isn't much of an issue. Your health spikes very low, as does his, so he's not trying to go anywhere. A bit before the kill, you and he are both around 15% life, so he's not even TRYING to kite. After that you LOS and correctly play defensively while your lock peels and does damage to ensure a victory. If you were a warrior, the fight would have gone very similarly. If you were a DK, or windwalker, etc- your mobility isn't a factor.

    In the second, the mage is instapeeled by the lock, and doesn't help do anything to defend his monk- I don't even think he leaves invis until the monk is mostly dead. You also burst him like crazy with your lock, which is great, but doesn't matter much when we are talking about mobility. In 3s, monks can get away from me. If you tell me I should kill a monk within seven seconds of the open routinely in 3s, I gotta ask- seriously? And my next question would be, are all the high rated rogues just getting gibs off of the opener, aka, does that technique scale on up?

    The third fight features another DK who toe-to-toes you. Rogues don't have mobility issues versus opponents who WANT to be in melee range with them!

    But more importantly- your ability to wail kills out doesn't say ANYTHING about mobility. Our burst is great, but so is a warrior's. The warrior has game when the enemy is 8 yards away though, and we don't.

    Also note, that most of your "tricky stuff" is occurring after your team is already locked in position.

    Not every team will have a target that wants to be in melee with your, or that gets pushed over fast enough that their arsenal of escape tools don't come in to play.


    The final difference here is that you are demonstrating in 2s, and against an inordinate number of melee players. Maybe you are doing great in 3s as well, but I think there are substantial differences that we aren't seeing.


    Things I see in game that don't happen in your video:

    1)- Hammer the rogue, freedom the target- this happens way more often than you can get rid of the hammer, and even if your allies peel the freedom, the gap is still there.
    2)- DK chains, runs away. Repeat until this functions. Given the number of DKs your fought, I'm sort of surprised it didn't come up.
    3)- Throw CC at the rogue (instead of try for kill on rogue).

    I have difficulty chasing the following if they don't want to be on me:
    Mage, Warlock, Anything with a symbiosis mobility effect, any druid, Warriors, Hunters, Mistweavers (maybe Windwalker, but I've seen as many of those as I see rogues), holy paladins.
    Other paladins and DKs can get away with minimal help from their allies.


    Thanks for the video, but all it does is reinforce my existing opinions- rogues don't need damage buffs in pvp, rogues definitely need mobility buffs.

  15. #75
    The Lightbringer ViridianWRA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holo View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhLz1lEY6jw

    Here you go. Now i'm genuinely curious to hear how you think that mobility is bad.
    Bad players don't indicate that they're fighting a good class. Also, never get to see a rating, do ya?


    So as far as anyone here knows, you're fighting in the 200 ratings.

    You mean I have room for text now?

  16. #76
    Legendary! Holo's Avatar
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    Alright so here goes. If the dk would actually start peeling me when i'm at 15% health, i wouldn't even bother trying to catch up. The best thing to do in that scenario is to run the fuck away and reset. That is also why it wasn't the best option for him to do. His chances to kill me were far bigger than my chances to kill him. So he handled correctly. Either way if he was to try and kite me, there is a simple shiv to prevent him from doing that. Those 4 seconds are pretty much enough to allow me or my partner to make sure the loss of uptime will be very minimal.

    As of the second fight, it really depends on oppertunity. He basically gave us an opener like that, allowing to do what we did. That happens in 3v3 aswell, though less at higher ratings. Either way, there was little he could do apart from instantly trinketing and using karma. In which case blind reset repeat would have delayed but done the job anyway.

    Overall and in general, keeping up on targets isn't any worse than it was before. And right where it should be. Getting kited and stuff like that is normal. I would be stupid if you could stop every single enemy attempt of getting away.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-04 at 05:47 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Validity View Post
    Bad players don't indicate that they're fighting a good class. Also, never get to see a rating, do ya?


    So as far as anyone here knows, you're fighting in the 200 ratings.
    Rating you fight at doesn't really matter for general mobility demonstration. But thanks for your input.

    And if you so desire to know, the matches were recorded at a rate of 1650 ish. As i said, not that it matters. But i have nothing to hide.
    Last edited by Holo; 2012-11-04 at 04:49 PM.

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  17. #77
    I'm not saying your opponents played incorrectly. I'm only looking at your video from the perspective that you posted it- that you think our mobility is ok. You aren't demonstrating either mobility or the ability to get back to an opponent who escapes, because the samples you show are the set of fights where your opponents are up in YOUR face. That's not a mobility issue!

    Additionally, you freely admit that you have less target options than other specs. That's a pretty serious issue, especially for a whole class to have!

  18. #78
    Legendary! Holo's Avatar
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    I just posted this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Holo View Post
    Well, it depends on how you look at it. I have to admit to you, i don't even consider any alternatives to shadowstep. Shadowstep is simply mandatory. Without it, yes our mobility IS garbage.

    But since i consider it a standard, as i guess i maybe should be careful with, there is no problem with mobility.

    And maybe, the same goes for shuriken. I consider it standard as it is mandatory against players that can get away from you.
    Elsewhere. We might be on the same line afterall.

    Although i don't want to get Preparation back, adjustments could either be done taking my spec as absolute, or fuzzling around with the talents. Which wouldn't be a bad idea per se either.

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  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Holo View Post
    Although i don't want to get Preparation back, adjustments could either be done taking my spec as absolute, or fuzzling around with the talents. Which wouldn't be a bad idea per se either.
    People begging for Prep to be spec wide forget that all we did was complain that our mobility and defensive cooldowns were leashed because it existed. Then in Cata with recup all we did was complain that we had to be sub because of prep even after we got an additional line in our survivability. Prep is NOT the answer.

    If anything, I still feel a lot of the complaints from everyone still grow from the opinion that we have been ignored for development cycles and any new ability we have gotten was simply rushed to say we got something, instead of adding to the class. If that is the true problem, I think the bean-counters win that argument and rogues need to either reroll or quit because the population is not large enough to worry about losing subs to.

  20. #80
    The Lightbringer ViridianWRA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holo View Post
    Rating you fight at doesn't really matter for general mobility demonstration. But thanks for your input.

    And if you so desire to know, the matches were recorded at a rate of 1650 ish. As i said, not that it matters. But i have nothing to hide.
    Higher quality opponents will be more effective at playing and controlling the Rogue. While the Rogue's own mobility won't change depending on rating, the ability for other players to inhibit it will. Effectively, the Rogue's mobility will get worse as the players get better. Our only snare removal or suppression affect takes over 50% of our main resource. Now imagine if Death's Advance required an Unholy, Frost and Blood rune to activate.
    Last edited by ViridianWRA; 2012-11-05 at 09:50 PM.

    You mean I have room for text now?

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