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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by ati87 View Post
    Whatever the case as a raider your first priority needs to be to remove any uncertainty.
    You should remove all your crit rating too. And probably remove its effect from your Intellect comparisons.

    Also remove all your haste in short burn phases because you are only gambling against the clock, where the target might die in the middle of your ticks and spells and all your haste over previous events was useless.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-30 at 05:52 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by evralia View Post
    This is false. Your dps will simulate SLIGHTLY higher without hit cap, but in practice it would barely increase at all and will vary considerably.
    This is false. Our dps would be SLIGHTLY higher in practice, as there is no reason why simc would not potray reality within slight accuracy.

    If below hit cap our practical dps varies "considerably"

    then following is true:

    Below hit cap our simulated dps varies "considerably".
    At 15 % hit our simulated dps varies "considerably".
    At 15 % hit our practical dps varies "considerably".
    Last edited by Symer; 2012-10-30 at 03:48 PM.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Symer View Post
    [/COLOR]

    This is false. Our dps would be SLIGHTLY higher in practice, as there is no reason why simc would not potray reality within slight accuracy.

    If below hit cap our practical dps varies "considerably"

    then following is true:

    Below hit cap our simulated dps varies "considerably".
    At 15 % hit our simulated dps varies "considerably".
    At 15 % hit our practical dps varies "considerably".
    Your logic is.. baffling.
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  3. #23
    Only stepping from simc to practice condition now works by logic since you don't contest them being equal? To know something about hit % conditions is easy to witness in simc, and in raid unless you blame the raid/yourself instead of knowing there's randomness.

    ---

    Quote Originally Posted by ati87
    Missing haunt or SB: Soulswap as affliction warlock or missing chaos bolt as destro is a huge dps lose and can fuck up your rotation. Back in tbc you could mess up your dps as a destro lock by missing shadowbolt (and thus not applying the 20% debuff) while their are other warlocks in the raid that uses Shadowbolt (other shadow attacks would use up a charge).
    Speaking about affliction alone, it does not change your rotation whether the Haunt misses or not. Next spell should just be MG.

    In this T14H result

    simulationcraft . org/505/Warlock . html

    I think casting a Haunt results in 450k average damage, if MG would be up for the whole of its duration. If there are 5 casts in a minute, with 5 % hit, it is likely to miss once every 2 minutes. This is loosing 3.75k dps over the entire fight. There are 3400 rating points and scaling of those points would have to be ~1.10 to get 3.75k dps.

    In my link 3400 mastery could be worth up to 9.3k dps. Also note that missing with Haunt alone, or 1.10, does not make the bulk of building up the scale factor of hit rating, so we should not even mention this one spell alone when discussing hit vs. mastery.

  4. #24
    Dreadlord Junblat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gobuchul View Post
    Why does everybody bring up Elegon in this context? The energy charges are level 90.
    THEY are, but elegon isnt, so if are going to SB:seed the boss and miss...
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  5. #25
    From what I've seen from sims and similar tools, going for hit cap is something you absolutely want to do with Demo and Destro, I don't think this should realy be a talking point at the moment.

    But for affliction it's definitely up for discussion.

    So to approach this for my character I use askmrrobot, they used to have one gearing strategy, full mastery and I was curious why and this post in the forum from I think one of robot's developers (Revulva) makes sense, quite an interesting read...

    http://forums.askmrrobot.com/index.php?topic=4232.0

    Anyway, now they have two gearing strategies...

    PvE: Default Build => Mastery > Haste > Hit > Crit
    PvE: Hit Cap Build => Hit > Mastery > Haste > Crit

    So I select one of those strategies and optimise...it will do reforges/gems for that strategy and creates a profile that I can export and sim

    So these are the two profiles I sim

    Mastery simcraft profile - Simmed - 84258 DPS
    Code:
    warlock=bhutunga_mastery_build
    origin="http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear"
    level=90
    race=orc
    role=spell
    spec=affliction
    professions=Enchanting=600/Engineering=600
    talents=000030
    glyphs=siphon_life/soul_shards/burning_embers
    
    head=lightweight_retinal_armor,id=77533,stats=1733armor_855int_1522sta,gems=burning_primal_600haste_600mastery_180int
    trinket1=relic_of_yulon,id=79331,stats=956int
    off_hand=inscribed_jade_fan,id=79334,stats=377hit_566int_377mastery_849sta,enchant=165int,reforge=hit_haste
    chest=spelltwisters_grand_robe,id=82437,stats=2133armor_686haste_855int_474mastery_1523sta,gems=320mastery_160hit_160mastery_120int,enchant=80all
    wrists=deadwalker_bracers,id=82825,stats=891armor_301crit_354hit_501int_752sta,enchant=170int,reforge=crit_mastery
    main_hand=necromantic_wand,id=82826,stats=238haste_385int_268mastery_5152sp_578sta,enchant=jade_spirit
    legs=leggings_of_unleashed_anguish,id=82854,stats=1782armor_636crit_429haste_819int_1349sta,gems=80int_160mastery_60crit,enchant=285int_165crit,reforge=crit_mastery
    back=malevolent_gladiators_drape_of_prowess,id=84803,stats=1092armor_353haste_604int_432mastery_906sta,enchant=180int
    hands=undying_shadow_grips,id=86128,stats=1393armor_536haste_771int_513mastery_1277sta,gems=160hit_160mastery_60haste,enchant=170mastery,addon=synapse_springs_mark_ii
    waist=orbital_belt,id=86139,stats=1254armor_488haste_691int_488mastery_1277sta,gems=320mastery_160hit_160mastery_320mastery_120haste
    trinket2=light_of_the_cosmos,id=86792,stats=956haste,reforge=haste_mastery
    neck=amulet_of_seven_curses,id=87028,stats=445crit_502hit_720int_1081sta,reforge=crit_mastery
    finger2=the_horsemans_ring,id=88169,stats=382haste_313hit_535int_802sta,enchant=160int,reforge=hit_mastery
    finger1=simple_harmonius_ring,id=89072,stats=415haste_432hit_638int_958sta,enchant=160int,reforge=hit_mastery
    shoulders=mantle_of_the_golden_sun,id=89340,stats=1672armor_431crit_585hit_771int_1277sta,gems=320mastery_60int,enchant=200int_100crit,reforge=crit_mastery
    feet=sandals_of_the_shadow,id=90913,stats=1466armor_518haste_478hit_754int_1131sta,enchant=140mastery,reforge=hit_mastery
    
    default_pet=felhunter
    Hit simcraft profile - Simmed - 83852 dps
    Code:
    warlock=bhutunga_hit_build
    origin="http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear"
    level=90
    race=orc
    role=spell
    spec=affliction
    professions=Enchanting=600/Engineering=600
    talents=000030
    glyphs=siphon_life/soul_shards/burning_embers
    
    head=lightweight_retinal_armor,id=77533,stats=1733armor_855int_1522sta,gems=burning_primal_600haste_600mastery_180int
    trinket1=relic_of_yulon,id=79331,stats=956int
    off_hand=inscribed_jade_fan,id=79334,stats=377hit_566int_377mastery_849sta,enchant=165int
    chest=spelltwisters_grand_robe,id=82437,stats=2133armor_686haste_855int_474mastery_1523sta,gems=320mastery_160hit_160mastery_120int,enchant=80all
    wrists=deadwalker_bracers,id=82825,stats=891armor_301crit_354hit_501int_752sta,enchant=170int,reforge=crit_mastery
    main_hand=necromantic_wand,id=82826,stats=238haste_385int_268mastery_5152sp_578sta,enchant=jade_spirit,reforge=haste_hit
    legs=leggings_of_unleashed_anguish,id=82854,stats=1782armor_636crit_429haste_819int_1349sta,gems=80int_160mastery_60crit,enchant=285int_165crit,reforge=crit_hit
    back=malevolent_gladiators_drape_of_prowess,id=84803,stats=1092armor_353haste_604int_432mastery_906sta,enchant=180int,reforge=haste_hit
    hands=undying_shadow_grips,id=86128,stats=1393armor_536haste_771int_513mastery_1277sta,gems=160hit_160mastery_60haste,enchant=170mastery,addon=synapse_springs_mark_ii
    waist=orbital_belt,id=86139,stats=1254armor_488haste_691int_488mastery_1277sta,gems=320mastery_160hit_160mastery_320mastery_120haste
    trinket2=light_of_the_cosmos,id=86792,stats=956haste,reforge=haste_hit
    neck=amulet_of_seven_curses,id=87028,stats=445crit_502hit_720int_1081sta,reforge=crit_exp
    finger2=the_horsemans_ring,id=88169,stats=382haste_313hit_535int_802sta,enchant=160int,reforge=haste_mastery
    finger1=simple_harmonius_ring,id=89072,stats=415haste_432hit_638int_958sta,enchant=160int,reforge=haste_mastery
    shoulders=mantle_of_the_golden_sun,id=89340,stats=1672armor_431crit_585hit_771int_1277sta,gems=320mastery_60int,enchant=200int_100crit,reforge=crit_exp
    feet=sandals_of_the_shadow,id=90913,stats=1466armor_518haste_478hit_754int_1131sta,enchant=140mastery,reforge=haste_mastery
    
    default_pet=felhunter
    This is my DPS distribution for 10000 sims...

    So you can see from MY sims it's possible to reach same DPS in either specs, but on AVERAGE mastery build will give higher DPS

    (NB the scales can be a little misleading)

    Mastery




    Hit




    Now, I'm not one of these elitist jerks guys that are amazing at simcrafting, I just use the tools that are about and make a call...prior to this post I was a full mastery guy, the playstyle is doable but I find it kind of annoying and actually not very enjoyable when you do miss.

    When I was at lower gear levels Robot suggested to regem and reforge...massive ballache...but now it turns out my gear is at a good enough level where my gemming can favour mastery and I can just reforge few pieces of gear for hit...I think this is what I'll do from now on.

    I guess you just need to sim your char, figure out how much the DPS differs and if it's by a good amount decide whether to go with it but be prepared for a different (IMO more taxing) play style.

    Sorry for wall!

    ...runs home to reforge to hit
    Last edited by bhutunga; 2012-10-30 at 06:10 PM.

  6. #26
    Mechagnome Kildragon's Avatar
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    You should remove all your crit rating too. And probably remove its effect from your Intellect comparisons.

    Also remove all your haste in short burn phases because you are only gambling against the clock, where the target might die in the middle of your ticks and spells and all your haste over previous events was useless.
    Way to go over the top and completely take what he said out of context. The quote you were responding to is correct, you should remove that uncertainty, to a reasonable degree. Plus, comparing hit to either haste or crit is just pointless as they are completely different stats. The main difference is that hit has a very easily accessible cap, after which it becomes far less valuable as a stat. Simply by going for this cap, you negate any and all possible negative effects from not having cap.

    Crit cap isn't reachable at all though, so there's no sense in even trying. Once you acknowledge that crit cap isn't feasible it becomes far less valuable because that uncertainty will always be there. Removing crit from gear and int is an asinine idea that doesn't follow the logic of the argument. Crit is always valuable and there is no point at which having more crit will make you perform worse than when you had less crit (This assumes that having more crit DOESN'T mean you have less of another stat). I do have to agree though that crit can be an annoying stat, which is the reason so many fire mages hated life last tier.

    I won't even touch your haste argument because as evralia said earlier, your logic is baffling.

    This is false. Our dps would be SLIGHTLY higher in practice, as there is no reason why simc would not potray reality within slight accuracy.

    If below hit cap our practical dps varies "considerably"

    then following is true:

    Below hit cap our simulated dps varies "considerably".
    At 15 % hit our simulated dps varies "considerably".
    At 15 % hit our practical dps varies "considerably".
    I'm still trying to wrap my head around your logic, but here goes.

    Let me explain simulations to you.

    The standard simulation runs at least 10000 iterations on 6-8 minute fights. It then calculates based on your stats, what your expected DPS outcome would be. The final number that you see on the sims is the average of these 10000 runs. Being hit capped reduces uncertainty and makes your overall numbers more reliable, while going the mastery build has the potential for higher DPS at the cost of more variation. If you just look at the poster above me, he posted the DPS distribution from his sims with both builds. Looking at the hit build you see the expected DPS variation with most numbers being clumped in the middle. Now look at the mastery build, where you have far more outliers in both the top and bottom ranges.

    While both of these profiles show only a difference of 406 DPS on average, with the mastery profile you will have some attempts where you top the meters and some attempts where you are absolute bottom. These differences do happen with the hit build as well, but at a far less frequent rate.

    So yes, below hit cap your practical DPS will vary considerably. At hit cap, your practical DPS will vary as well, just not nearly as much.

    These sims are sims, they aren't perfect and they certainly don't account for player error, encounter design, player responsibilities or the fact that you will most likely never even have 10000 encounter attempts within a given expansion. That theoretical higher average of 406 DPS won't mean jack shit to your raid leader when you try to explain to him while you failed your job in an encounter or are continuously low on DPS due to bad luck with hitting.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Kildragon
    The quote you were responding to is correct, you should remove that uncertainty, to a reasonable degree.
    If someone told you there is a better action list that gives more dps but makes the distribution more flat, would you not change your gaming because you fear being at the lower edge all the time? If you do change to it, then you don't only have a double standard with your stats, but other parts of the game as well.

    I simmed myself at the cap and around 7.5 %:

    // img404.imageshack. us/img404/4494/5thpercentile .png

    There is an actual number to describe the bad luck situation and one is the 5th percentile. Five percent of simulated oucomes were below this amount of dps. Both gears are below their 5th percentiles just as often. When it is your bad day as a mastery or hit warlock you would see a value under this dps. It is affected by the strength of that tail behind most results, like it was said. But looking at the picture even you might not see how much mastery has shifted the whole distribution towards positive.

    not capped: 80518.05

    hit capped: 80514.60

    Then the number such as (mean - standard deviation) is greater when you are below cap (81755 is better than 81526), showing that even if the distribution has a great deviation, the biggest amount of those deviated results are still good.

    Togethter theese statistics point to that if mastery-lock had bad luck he would have beatten the hit-lock who had the same bad luck, probability wise. And it will happen always with the probable amounts of luck, until something under 1st percentile, most likely.

    Overal the hit-lock gets yelled at more often. Definetly if the difficulty point under which you get yelled at is anywhere higher than 5th percentile.

    When it is said that in practice there is alot of variance, you should not use max-min, or anything way under 1st percentile, since you would not be refering to practical situation but to the huge amount of runs that produce those values. Therefore you probably mean numbers such as the standard deviation. If this is "considerable" at 2144, I consider 1797 as of same proportion, when it is in relation to the total dps. Otherwise we should call the average dps increase we get in mastery gear as "really fantastic" or similar.

  8. #28
    Bloodsail Admiral Voidgazer's Avatar
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    I don't really care if I'd lose a couple of hundred points in DPS, but I go for the hit cap just because losing stacks on Agony would be really frustrating for me.
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rustjive View Post
    As others have mentioned in other threads, the reason for this is the level of adds - all the adds on Will (Rage, Strength, Courage) and the Protector on Elegon are level 92, resulting in you only being .17% under cap, and all the other adds on Elegon (Energy Charges, Empyreal Focus, Cosmic Spark) are level 90, so you're capped against those.
    you sir are correct.

    i'll re-post with some proper 93+ fights, like stoneguard, feng, etc., where no adds of lower level are involved.

  10. #30
    Herald of the Titans Jigain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ati87 View Post
    Missing haunt or SB: Soulswap as affliction
    Just as a pointer, SB:SS doesn't miss per se. Rather, each component of SB:SS has the potential to miss. Thus, you can cast SB:SS and miss with Agony, but UA and Corr will still apply. Or Corr and UA might miss, and Agony is applied. For all three to miss, you can count yourself pretty darn unlucky even if you go out of your way to reforge away from hit.

  11. #31
    I have 1.42% chance to miss on a boss. I missed chaos bolt twice last night on a boss. That's 600,000 less damage I put on that boss. We wiped twice with him at less than 1,000,000hp. (it was the third boss in MSV.)

    So yes being hit capped is a big deal

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by edave22 View Post
    I have 1.42% chance to miss on a boss. I missed chaos bolt twice last night on a boss. That's 600,000 less damage I put on that boss. We wiped twice with him at less than 1,000,000hp. (it was the third boss in MSV.)

    So yes being hit capped is a big deal
    It's flawed logic as if you had been hit capped you'd have done 600,000 less damage overall anyway due to getting rid of some other secondary stat. I know it's not exact numbers but you can't just presume you've lost 600k without factoring in the alternative.

  13. #33
    Consistent dps > Simcraft.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by edave22 View Post
    I have 1.42% chance to miss on a boss. I missed chaos bolt twice last night on a boss. That's 600,000 less damage I put on that boss. We wiped twice with him at less than 1,000,000hp. (it was the third boss in MSV.)

    So yes being hit capped is a big deal
    Why were you not hit capped as Destruction?

    The only time anyone's ever been talking about not being hitcapped is for Affliction.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-31 at 12:34 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Teye View Post
    Consistent dps > Simcraft.
    The variability in DPS is nowhere near where you and others seem to think it is. Over the course of a fight the misses you incur have nowhere near as large an effect as the way you play. Also, the only thing, as affliction, that you ever need to worry about missing is Haunt, your first SB:SS and your first MG cast after casting haunt. Every other situation you can refresh DoTs earlier to give you more time to catch misses, you can cast MG halfway through it's cast so that if you miss the first refresh your second still hits before the original cast is over.


    Also, look at simulationcraft's variability reports when comparing hit-cap to not hit-cap. The bottom-end (which is an incredibily small proportion of the iterations), is only down by about 2k, while by the same token the top end is up by about the same amount. For every fight that you do slightly worse on (maybe bottom on meters if you're already close to everyone else), you'll also be on top by that much more. Because the overall average went up you'll, on average do more damage. (gasp)


    On fights where people comment about missing key damage, those mobs are not, if ever, boss level. They're usually lower level and thus you don't even need the 15% hit to begin with and you'll be down only 3% less than you'd previously thought you were.

  15. #35
    I was very hesitant about going below hitcap myself (you can search my post history) ...

    But, I tried it, and my dps went up enough for me to notice. It sucks when I miss a Haunt, or when I SB:SS and not all of my dots apply, or when I miss my initial cast of DS on Feng before he starts to channel Epicenter, or when my Agony falls off ... but altogether those are relatively rare events.

    Now, since I went below hit I've gotten quite a few gear upgrades, so I might wind up trying out hitcap again to see if I'm in the same ballpark, but ... being below hitcap hasn't proven to be a problem yet, despite my deep reservations.
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  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Count Zero View Post
    I was very hesitant about going below hitcap myself (you can search my post history) ...

    But, I tried it, and my dps went up enough for me to notice. It sucks when I miss a Haunt, or when I SB:SS and not all of my dots apply, or when I miss my initial cast of DS on Feng before he starts to channel Epicenter, or when my Agony falls off ... but altogether those are relatively rare events.

    Now, since I went below hit I've gotten quite a few gear upgrades, so I might wind up trying out hitcap again to see if I'm in the same ballpark, but ... being below hitcap hasn't proven to be a problem yet, despite my deep reservations.

    My hit is almost even with haste in simcraft weights (and well behind mastery) so I'm considering prioritizing mastery > hit > haste to see how it goes.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Herrenos View Post
    My hit is almost even with haste in simcraft weights (and well behind mastery) so I'm considering prioritizing mastery > hit > haste to see how it goes.
    It's been a bit since I simmed, but last time I did it was haste>hit>mastery for me. Dunno what that was about, but I did add hit since then, while trying to keep haste and mastery close but with haste higher, and my dps has climbed higher and higher.

    Just wish chardev importing into simcraft wasn't broken (tried helping a pally guildie figure out some stuff the other day). I'll try the latest version of simc and see if it's working ...
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  18. #38
    everyone who can NOT react fast enough to reapply a dot after a miss: go hitcap.
    everyone who finds it easy enough to react to misses in the timeframe of a global cooldown: fuck hit.

    yes, reforging out of hit will give you some dps swings. but those even out over a long fight and are compensated by the fact that overall dps will be higher w/o hitcap.

  19. #39
    The Lightbringer nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    The variability in DPS is nowhere near where you and others seem to think it is. Over the course of a fight the misses you incur have nowhere near as large an effect as the way you play. Also, the only thing, as affliction, that you ever need to worry about missing is Haunt, your first SB:SS and your first MG cast after casting haunt. Every other situation you can refresh DoTs earlier to give you more time to catch misses, you can cast MG halfway through it's cast so that if you miss the first refresh your second still hits before the original cast is over.
    That's the thing though, you have to catch misses. In other words, perfect play became harder. And considering that nobody plays perfectly and playing poorly has a much larger decrease in DPS than a few hundred average (over 10,000+ iterations) of DPS points, making perfect play harder is a pretty big deal with progression.

    It's a personal thing, and IMO not a really good debate to have. Just do what you want, makes sure to do it right though.
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2012-11-01 at 07:02 AM.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rustjive View Post
    As others have mentioned in other threads, the reason for this is the level of adds - all the adds on Will (Rage, Strength, Courage) and the Protector on Elegon are level 92, resulting in you only being .17% under cap, and all the other adds on Elegon (Energy Charges, Empyreal Focus, Cosmic Spark) are level 90, so you're capped against those.
    As promised, i have risen from the dead with new info ( fights with no adds involved)

    On 18 fights in HoF last night ( 11 Zor'Lok + 7 Ta'yak), from a total of 5143 casts i missed 58 => (58/5143)*100 = 1,1277% = roughly 1.13% misses. Considering i was still at 11.83% hit for these tries ( got the VP bracers after this raid which took me to 12.63% hit), 15-11.83 = 3.17% chance to miss. Considering 3.17% miss chance VS 1.13% actual misses in a raid, the extra 2.04% of hit i could've gotten was put into mastery for more deeps.

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