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  1. #21
    DPS increase from haste alone is linear, haste breakpoints increase DPCT.

  2. #22
    As you are clipping dots anyway, extra ticks are only an illusion. The dot will just keep running and haste will just affect the dot's dps linearly. Haste breakpoints will Only come into play when your dots are running out, which shouldnt happen. The only situations where haste breakpoints are usefull, are when you multidot/use a lot of SB:SoC. Because then a lot of your dots will run out.

    I plotted haste with the highest range possible and still didnt get any "breakpoints" in my dps. If its different with you, can you please post your data?

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Schaendwich View Post
    As you are clipping dots anyway, extra ticks are only an illusion. The dot will just keep running and haste will just affect the dot's dps linearly. Haste breakpoints will Only come into play when your dots are running out, which shouldnt happen. The only situations where haste breakpoints are usefull, are when you multidot/use a lot of SB:SoC. Because then a lot of your dots will run out.

    I plotted haste with the highest range possible and still didnt get any "breakpoints" in my dps. If its different with you, can you please post your data?
    Ah I see, then I got it completley wrong

  4. #24
    You don't "clip" DoTs in an old sense. With Pandemic you add your DoT duration (and through this its total damage) to already ticking one (unless you cast it way early) - that is how Pandemic works. And DoT's total damage has breakpoints. The only case when there are no breakpoints is when you refresh your DoT with another spell (like Fel Flame or old Haunt or old Hand of Gul'dan - they added constant duration to existing DoT effect). Ridcully has just written correct - through reaching breakpoints you increase DoT's DpET (or DpCT - choose what you like) which increases your overall damage.

    PS. Sorry, can't explain it better - English isn't the language that I know best.
    Last edited by andgeres; 2012-11-01 at 09:37 PM. Reason: Try to explain more clearly and grammar

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by andgeres View Post
    You don't "clip" DoTs in an old sense. With Pandemic you add your DoT duration (and through this its total damage) to already ticking one (unless you cast it way early) - that is how Pandemic works. And DoT's total damage has breakpoints. The only case when there are no breakpoints is when you refresh your DoT with another spell (like Fel Flame or old Haunt or old Hand of Gul'dan - they added constant duration to existing DoT effect). Ridcully has just written correct - through reaching breakpoints you increase DoT's DpET (or DpCT - chose what you like) which increases your overall damage.

    PS. Sorry, can't explain it better - English isn't the language that I know best.
    Think the easiest way to explain it is like this (unless I am way off in how it actually works, if so I apologize):

    UA does x damage over 15 secs with 0 haste. At 1000 haste, it still does x damage, but over 14 secs. At 2000 haste, it still does x damage, but over 13 secs. At 3000 haste, it does x+1 tick damage over 15 secs again because it gained a tick. A dot that ticks for 15 secs doesnt need recasting as often as a dot that ticks for 13 secs, and there is the gain in haste thresholds.

    The numbers in the example are obviously made up, but it should help in understanding why the thresholds still help even with even with Pandemic.

  6. #26
    And the best way to maximize the damage iiiiiis.... I dont know, actually Im thinking to reach the next breakpoint ( 4717 ) and then go Mastery. I'm 481 ilvl but I have not got 2 pieces of Tier.

    @Evrelia your oppinion would be appreciate

  7. #27
    I'm trying to sim reforge plots but it's taking hours for it to simulate... I certainly don't have a slow pc as I can run WoW on max settings on 60 fps.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Impzor View Post
    I'm trying to sim reforge plots but it's taking hours for it to simulate... I certainly don't have a slow pc as I can run WoW on max settings on 60 fps.
    Go to options and check how many threads you're using. Use as many threads as you have cpu cores.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Schaendwich View Post
    As you are clipping dots anyway, extra ticks are only an illusion. The dot will just keep running and haste will just affect the dot's dps linearly. Haste breakpoints will Only come into play when your dots are running out, which shouldnt happen. The only situations where haste breakpoints are usefull, are when you multidot/use a lot of SB:SoC. Because then a lot of your dots will run out.

    I plotted haste with the highest range possible and still didnt get any "breakpoints" in my dps. If its different with you, can you please post your data?
    This is a plot I posted a while back - 3 target, 3043 Haste, 467 ilvl, 3 targets:


    Here's another with my current gear, single target:
    Last edited by Rustjive; 2012-11-01 at 03:50 PM.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Fozuum View Post
    Go to options and check how many threads you're using. Use as many threads as you have cpu cores.
    Alright thanks, hope it goes a lot faster now!

  11. #31
    Saying haste is purely smooth function is misleading. Under synthetic conditions, where you never let a dot expire, it is a smooth function. However, any "breakpoint" that is a proc or lust based haste point is relevant, as are all other tick thresholds, as there are frequent single target situations where you're better off letting your (non-Agony) dot expire rather than refreshing it in it's pandemic window.
    Gamer, Nerd, Physicist. What more could you want?! Well fine, I have a youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/shaidyadvice and a stream: www.twitch.tv/shaidyadvice I'm currently spending my free time with the fine fellows and ladies over at Death and Taxes.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Fozuum View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong but haste breakpoints are pretty real. If you have more than 1783 haste rating you gain 1 more agony tick. If you have 5319 haste rating you still get only one extra tick. But if you have 5320 you get 2 extra ticks. So haste values between breakpoints should be avoided and reforged to mastery.

    When plotting haste make sure that you're plotting a big enough range to include the different breakpoints.

    Tonight I'm going with 6637 haste (3 extra agony ticks, 2 corruption ticks, 2 unstable affliction ticks). Wonder how this will work out
    Haste breakpoints are definitely real, but their importance has been vastly overblown by the majority of people on these forums. I don't think people really know why they're doing it - and before you parrot back "extra ticks," you must first understand how utterly small the impact of extra ticks is given the way affliction works.

    Overall, you're way better off just reforging based on your scale factors regardless of whatever "conventional wisdom" is being dispersed. Haste and mastery scale along with one-another and in conjunction with the amount of int on your gear, so going too far with any of those stats will result in an imbalance and probably a reduction in dps.

    Having said that, I've found that the 4717 breakpoint is worth going for as long as your mastery is also very close to that number. With my current setup, mastery is only about a 10th ahead of haste with 4820 mastery and 13283 int.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-01 at 11:08 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by CDShaidar View Post
    Saying haste is purely smooth function is misleading. Under synthetic conditions, where you never let a dot expire, it is a smooth function. However, any "breakpoint" that is a proc or lust based haste point is relevant, as are all other tick thresholds, as there are frequent single target situations where you're better off letting your (non-Agony) dot expire rather than refreshing it in it's pandemic window.
    You should never let any dot expire if you can avoid it, that is a DPS loss. The only exception to this is probably if you have a superbuffed set of dots up, but that is hardly the norm. Pandemic is your friend.
    Last edited by Bigtimmy; 2012-11-02 at 03:12 AM.
    “All statements within these quotation marks are untrue.”

  13. #33
    Yes, I am getting similar results to this, running just over the 6.6K haste "cap" (to try it out), with simcraft saying it is a 30 (xd) dps increase over 4717 haste cap then full mastery- my current stat weights with 6671 haste being here- 0DOTchart.apis.google.com/chart?chs=525x210&cht=bhg&chxs=0,ffffff|1,ffffff&chf=bg,s,333333&chd=t1:3.75,3.14,2.18,1.9 6,1.58,1.21|3.69,3.09,2.13,1.91,1.53,1.15|3.80,3.20,2.24,2.02,1.64,1.26&chds=0,7.49&chco=9 482C9&chm=E,FF0000,1:0,,1:20|t++++3.75++Int,9482C9,0,0,15,0.1|t++++3.14++SP,9482C9,0,1,15, 0.1|t++++2.18++Haste,9482C9,0,2,15,0.1|t++++1.96++Mastery,9482C9,0,3,15,0.1|t++++1.58++Hit ,9482C9,0,4,15,0.1|t++++1.21++Crit,9482C9,0,5,15,0.1&chtt=Jamandbread%20Scale%20Factors&ch ts=dddddd,18 - sorry for lack of link

  14. #34
    Regarding the 3 target sim: Of course here the haste thresholds come into play, because dots will run out. We were talking about single target all the way. Other than this I have one problem with simming my character atm. and maybe someone can help:

    When I simmed with even haste/mastery values simcraft told me that haste sims higher in dps than Mastery, so I reforged everything to haste. Then I simmed again and now I am told Mastery is the best 2nd stat. So I reforged back to 50/50 mastery/haste. Then I compared the dps of all the sims and am seeing that the one where I go for purely haste is the highest. How can this be? Because in this sim Mastery is put over haste, so reforging into some mastery should higher my dps, but it goes down instead. Im honestly confused.

    Also I see almost ALL Warlocks from good guilds gem with full mastery or hit/mastery gems and I am told by a lot of people that my int/2nd stat gems are wrong. But when I look at the calues Simcraft gives me the int gems actually give me more dps (none of the 2nd stats x2 gets above int x1). Also when I sim the OTHER warlocks I get these stat values. So am I doing sth wrong? Are all the other Warlocks doing sth. wrong? Is simcraft broken? Or am I just stupid?

    regards

  15. #35
    As a destruction lock, I'm a bit confused about my priorities.

    How does crit and mastery apply exactly for something like chaos bolt? is it going to be (base damage x crit bonus) x mastery or is it more a base damage x (crit bonus + mastery bonus) ? Are there mastery or crit breakpoints that i should be going for? I know i want my haste at 7% for the first immolate breakpoint, but my mastery seems so absurdly high in the mid 40%'s compared to my crit (around 12%) that im wondering if i should be changing the balance.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Schaendwich View Post
    Regarding the 3 target sim: Of course here the haste thresholds come into play, because dots will run out. We were talking about single target all the way. Other than this I have one problem with simming my character atm. and maybe someone can help:

    When I simmed with even haste/mastery values simcraft told me that haste sims higher in dps than Mastery, so I reforged everything to haste. Then I simmed again and now I am told Mastery is the best 2nd stat. So I reforged back to 50/50 mastery/haste. Then I compared the dps of all the sims and am seeing that the one where I go for purely haste is the highest. How can this be? Because in this sim Mastery is put over haste, so reforging into some mastery should higher my dps, but it goes down instead. Im honestly confused.

    Also I see almost ALL Warlocks from good guilds gem with full mastery or hit/mastery gems and I am told by a lot of people that my int/2nd stat gems are wrong. But when I look at the calues Simcraft gives me the int gems actually give me more dps (none of the 2nd stats x2 gets above int x1). Also when I sim the OTHER warlocks I get these stat values. So am I doing sth wrong? Are all the other Warlocks doing sth. wrong? Is simcraft broken? Or am I just stupid?

    regards
    I included a single target chart for just that reason.

    I'm sure this is covered in other places, but the way you are simming and reforging is the completely wrong way to go about it, and it shows a lack of understanding about how stats interact with each other. All your stats work in concert with one another. You need them to be balanced - INT and Crit are included in this. When stats are relatively close to each other in value, if you swing one stat by thousands of rating (or more than a few percentage points), the other one will naturally become worth more. If you have Mastery conferring a 50% damage bonus to DoTs and no haste, getting a 1% boost in damage will either require 1% more haste or 1.5% more mastery - since your Mastery works on the base value and obviously doesn't stack on top of Mastery boosted damage.

    As for your gems - those Warlocks are higher item level than you. Their stat weights are different. That's the long and short of it.
    Last edited by Rustjive; 2012-11-03 at 08:34 PM.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigtimmy View Post
    You should never let any dot expire if you can avoid it, that is a DPS loss. The only exception to this is probably if you have a superbuffed set of dots up, but that is hardly the norm. Pandemic is your friend.
    This just isn't the case, it's a good rule of thumb to give as basic advice but anytime you lose out on better ticks for worse ticks is a dps loss when normalized to any lost uptime.
    Gamer, Nerd, Physicist. What more could you want?! Well fine, I have a youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/shaidyadvice and a stream: www.twitch.tv/shaidyadvice I'm currently spending my free time with the fine fellows and ladies over at Death and Taxes.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigtimmy View Post
    Having said that, I've found that the 4717 breakpoint is worth going for as long as your mastery is also very close to that number. With my current setup, mastery is only about a 10th ahead of haste with 4820 mastery and 13283 int.
    Sorry for such a stupid question but when people say this does it mean 4717 raid buffed or unbuffed?

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomed View Post
    Sorry for such a stupid question but when people say this does it mean 4717 raid buffed or unbuffed?
    The 4717 is just from gear. With that number you'll get an extra corruption tick with just the spell haste buff you (should) have in your raid.

    It seems to be a somewhat worthwhile breakpoint to go for based on my own experience with my own gear and scale factors. Previously, I tried going for the extra tick under bloodlust only - which uses way less haste and way more mastery - and it was a significant dps loss.
    “All statements within these quotation marks are untrue.”

  20. #40
    Simc has been a little weird for me too,..I would think Haste's value would go down after I hit the 4717 thresthold and I would see a noticeable jump in DPS,....at the sacrifice of about 700 mastery I actually lost DPS (albeit it was only 10 lol) after hitting the threshold, 478 ilvl. I also tried getting mastery and haste within 400 of each other and the diff was negligible as well (around 100dps):

    haste 4812
    mastery 4163


    Scale Factors for Greyywarden Damage Per Second
    Int SP Hit Crit Haste Mastery
    Scale Factors 3.81 0.00 0.00 1.21 2.01 1.81
    Normalized 1.00 0.00 0.00 0.32 0.53 0.48
    Scale Deltas 1000 1000 -1000 1000 1000 1000
    Error 0.06 0.00 0.00 0.06 0.06 0.06
    Gear Ranking wowhead
    Optimizers wowreforge
    Ranking Int > Haste > Mastery > Crit

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