Thoughts on Guild Dungeon Group Encounters from the "Other Guys" (or Girls)

[Behrthravn]

There have been too many times where I have encountered guild groups in the Dungeon Finder and been subject to the humiliation of their control. Often the guild group will take advantage of the fact that they have the three votes it takes to vote any one group member out. Not only this, but they will also take advantage of the extra loot rolls they have in order to roll for items that are not useful to them, but are useful to their guildmates, effectively doubling their guildmate's chance at winning the loot over you. I really love this game and I have been playing since Burning Crusade. However, this guild control over the dungeon finder is proving to be too stressful for a video game environment, which I believe should (ideally) be a time that you can unwind and relax a bit. Time and time again, these encounters have broken my spirit, as well as for other players that I know.

My constructive suggestion to combat the overwhelming power and influence guild groups get to vote other members of the group out is to require a group of three guildies to require one extra vote in the kicking process. I do not have a solution for a guild group of four, but if anyone can think of something, please post your ideas! As for needing on gear you don't need in order to trade to a guildy... I think that the new raid finder loot system is most effective in stopping that sort of shenanigans. I'm sure there are some that prefer the old system, but I believe this new system to be more foolproof, and I hope that this is Blizzard's thought as well.

I encourage anyone else to respectfully comment and post evidence of their stresses regarding this matter as well. I will be posting my evidence from my most recent issue as well as any in the future as soon as my forum account can access that feature. Hopefully someone of influence will read this thread and bring these problems to the forefront so that they can be tackled accordingly. Thank you for your time and patience reading this.

[Editos]

There have been too many times where I have encountered guild groups in the Dungeon Finder and been subject to the humiliation of their control. Often the guild group will take advantage of the fact that they have the three votes it takes to vote any one group member out. Not only this, but they will also take advantage of the extra loot rolls they have in order to roll for items that are not useful to them, but are useful to their guildmates, effectively doubling their guildmate's chance at winning the loot over you. I really love this game and I have been playing since Burning Crusade. However, this guild control over the dungeon finder is proving to be too stressful for a video game environment, which I believe should (ideally) be a time that you can unwind and relax a bit. Time and time again, these encounters have broken my spirit, as well as for other players that I know.

My constructive suggestion to combat the overwhelming power and influence guild groups get to vote other members of the group out is to require a group of three guildies to require one extra vote in the kicking process. I do not have a solution for a guild group of four, but if anyone can think of something, please post your ideas! As for needing on gear you don't need in order to trade to a guildy... I think that the new raid finder loot system is most effective in stopping that sort of shenanigans. I'm sure there are some that prefer the old system, but I believe this new system to be more foolproof, and I hope that this is Blizzard's thought as well.

I encourage anyone else to respectfully comment and post evidence of their stresses regarding this matter as well. I will be posting my evidence from my most recent issue as well as any in the future as soon as my forum account can access that feature. Hopefully someone of influence will read this thread and bring these problems to the forefront so that they can be tackled accordingly. Thank you for your time and patience reading this.

a group with 3 guild members currently need a fourth vote to kick the one group member

[Summer]

From the guild's point of view, if a new alt gets to max level or a friend needs a boost, I might well go boost them through a dungeon (and others will do the same for me). I won't need any gear from there for myself, but can help them win it. Why not? I'm putting in the same time and effort as everyone else, even if I'm not looking to get the gear for myself, and making the run substantially easier and faster for everyone too In theory, your chances of winning loot shouldn't be any smaller than if you were running with 5 ungeared randoms compared to a guild group where only one person needs the loot. Although of course if he happens to need the exact same loot as you do it's a bit of a bummer, however, you can always drop the group if you feel the loot RNG won't be favorable :P

As for the vote kicks, you already do need that extra vote. Dunno how much vote kick gets abused but haven't seen even one incidence in MoP yet.

[cFortyfive]

Well there are certainly two sides to this. Although I know which kind of guilds are running around there I certainly see no obvious solution to that as the problem might be just as well caused by the "randoms" in the group.

[kouby]

Play with your friends and guildmates.

I'd rather stay afk in orgrimmar than run dungeons with guildmates/alts and see the gear go to some guy who probably can't dps.

[Xene]

continue running with them after the dungeons over?
no doubt the runs are faster than 4 other complete randoms, plus if you come across the same dungeon the items probably wont be rolled on again by them.

[Thundertom]

This almost never happens to me. I must be lucky.

[Behrthravn]

From the guild's point of view, if a new alt gets to max level or a friend needs a boost, I might well go boost them through a dungeon (and others will do the same for me). I won't need any gear from there for myself, but can help them win it. Why not? I'm putting in the same time and effort as everyone else, even if I'm not looking to get the gear for myself, and making the run substantially easier and faster for everyone too

I don't believe that a requirement of the game to yield extra dungeon rewards should be to have a winning personality such that others are so willing to spend their valuable time simply to get them more stuff at the expense of others. Also, theoretically, you're wrong. My chances would not be the same considering all members of a group can roll need on any item that is even slightly useful to their class (ex. shamans able to roll on str shields, trinkets, rings, etc.). For each extra rolling member, my probability of receiving that item is reduced. I also may have failed to mention that the item most recently taken from me was an Agi wrist from a spellcaster. When I asked if I could have it for my main spec, they never even replied. The guild group simply made a movement to kick me from the group, which passed. I had not communicated or had any altercation with them previous to that moment.

As for the vote kicks, you already do need that extra vote. Dunno how much vote kick gets abused but haven't seen even one incidence in MoP yet.

My mistake. People must really be bitter and twisted to add a fourth vote for no apparent reason.

[Cyner]

Our guild is actually the opposite, We do LFR as a guild group 10+ people usually on Tuesday's. We know there will be multiple AFK'rs, don't care just here for looters. But it is very few and far between that we will actually vote to kick someone just out of spite or because we can. We generally try to give quick instructions to fights while they are going on IE "watch out the floor is falling" ect. to help people out, because we understand that not everyone has raiding experience.
It's sad to see that there are alot of people who prefer to troll when they are in guild groups in LFR. Really it just makes their guild look bad. Shame on them.

[draykorinee]

I don't believe that a requirement of the game to yield extra dungeon rewards should be to have a winning personality such that others are so willing to spend their valuable time simply to get them more stuff at the expense of others. Also, theoretically, you're wrong. My chances would not be the same considering all members of a group can roll need on any item that is even slightly useful to their class (ex. shamans able to roll on str shields, trinkets, rings, etc.). For each extra rolling member, my probability of receiving that item is reduced. I also may have failed to mention that the item most recently taken from me was an Agi wrist from a spellcaster. When I asked if I could have it for my main spec, they never even replied. The guild group simply made a movement to kick me from the group, which passed. I had not communicated or had any altercation with them previous to that moment.



My mistake. People must really be bitter and twisted to add a fourth vote for no apparent reason.

I tend to just click it without a thought its never something I pay much attention to, as a healer I tend not to get booted.

[Ferocity]

Double/Triple roll for helping get gear for guildie is light form of grief, though it is still grief. But blame lottery system of rewards and shared drops (shared even by multiple roles). When you run some dungeon for XXth time to finally see the item you are after to drop, you will want to use all advantages you can get as you might never see this drop for XX times more, and rate of ninjaing in dungeons is very high, so you will want minimum amount of risk involved in rolling.

Having said this, I don't feel remorse in helping my guildies to gear up by double-triple rolls. However we found ways to not grief any pug either and same time completely removing any factor of possible ninjaing. My friends and me 2-3 men instances when can't get full non-pug run going (which is hard nowadays as people are busy doing dailies...), as pugs are horrible anyway. MoP hcs are very easy even with only 3 people.

So don't blame guild groups, blame lottery system with shared rolls and junk which is JP gear. This system should be changed long time ago, especially with introduction of LFD tool. "Need" is new "Greed", you can't fight this, you either join this or never run with pugs.

[Jeremypwnz]

Sometimes my guildies do something similar to what you are saying. We run dungeons in 2-5 people most of the time, if we need gear for offspec, we need on it without hesitation. If we win the roll and the other person who needed it doesn't complain, we see no reason to give it to him/her as it might be for their offspec as well. We don't inspect everyone we group with.

If the person who we supposedly ninja'd from comes forth and mentions he actually needs the gear for their current/main spec, we have no problem giving them the piece. But if they are just being a complete ass 5-10 minutes after it happened, no way in hell would I ever consider giving the gear to them assuming I actually needed gear for an offspec, lol, Hunters.

If we run in a full guild run, I ninja everything because why not? I stole quite a few Heroic Spine trinkets and a Heroic Gurth or two when we went 10m, we just group loot that difficulty.

If there is a pug/s, we don't combine our need rolls together to hoard loot for our guildy.

[Xargoth6634]

Even as someone who chronically gears alts and runs a lot of heroics on various toons, I have a hard time feeling too sympathetic for those who complain about gearing in heroics. At the end of the day it's 5 man loot, and I say that not as some kind of elitist since I've gone super casual and currently only plan to do LFR raiding this xpac. (A far cry from my SRS BSNS tendencies of the past.) My guild consists of 3 active players, and we pretty much just run our 7 weekly dungeons for guild xp/cash and make sure we run on the same type of character to maximize the chance we'll end up with the loot, which might be an approach you want to look into even though you're deriding it here. For what it's worth though, we don't grief people with votekicks (unless they're both awful and unwilling to try, or just assholes in an unfunny way and are griefing whoever the 5th player is.) or need for disenchant/offspec rolls. In fact, on a couple occasions we all rolled for someone we just met in the run, when the 5th person was being a douchebag.

In Cata LFR I would never run on a toon I needed gear on without taking 5+ people who could roll on the item(s) I need along...I have an extensive friends list. I don't mind losing an item 1v1 but when people are needing just to be dicks or they have half their guild rolling for them, you kind of have to bring your own people to even the odds.