1. #1221
    Quote Originally Posted by Crakkerz View Post
    People complained that in CATA, everything was just handed to people and it was easy mode. People complained that world PvP was dead and that nobody had any reason to leave ORG/SW. The world was so disjointed that players didn't feel immersed in the zones, stories, or content.

    Blizzard makes changes to address the complaints.

    People complain that they have to actual work towards building reputation and quest instead. Why can't I fly...this sucks....I don't want to be forced to WPvP or "enjoy" the content. Why can't I just grind rep through dungeon queue's with a tabard? I don't want to be forced to leave my capitals.

    What have we learned? WoW players are NEVER satisfied and have no idea what they want, aside from wanting something to bitch about.
    I've also seen complaints about why they should even have to level any alts after seeing the content once. The particular complaint cited they had 20 alts and didn't want to level all of them.

    It's true, the player base will always complain. If one group likes it, another group won't. I think it will blow over with 5.1 somewhat. The anti-daily folks will be able to do more with their gear and valor without doing dailies with that patch.
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  2. #1222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    That sounds familiar...

    Oh, it sounds like WoW, TBC, and Wrath of the Lich King raiding model.
    Not really. Lots of gear outside the raid in the wrath model. Especially towards the end. It's like none of you have ever played these expansions before. This system is more like the vanilla model. You are much closer to getting every piece of gear from the raid. That's it. Cataclysm was possible the extreme of the tbc and wotlk models of getting gear through a point/badge system outside of the raid. At this point I would welcome it over mists. Cataclysm had alot of shit wrong with it, the reward system wasn't one of the problems

    As for rep I didn't touch a single daily in cataclysm and still got rep. I'd love to be able to not touch a single daily and get rep in Mists. Not so much. And actually the way to grind rep in BC was to run dungeons. If you wanted ogrila and shatari you did dailies but I didn't touch those, they didn't have any gear or progression upgrades on them. In fact double dipping has been a part of this game longer than dailies. Did any of you actually play bc? BC didn't even have rep tabards....
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2012-11-02 at 09:48 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  3. #1223
    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    Not really. Lots of gear outside the raid in the wrath model. Especially towards the end. It's like none of you have ever played these expansions before. This system is more like the vanilla model. You are much closer to getting every piece of gear from the raid. That's it. Cataclysm was possible the extreme of the tbc and wotlk models of getting gear through a point/badge system outside of the raid. At this point I would welcome it over mists. Cataclysm had alot of shit wrong with it, the reward system wasn't one of the problem.

    As for rep I didn't touch a single daily in cataclysm and still got rep. I'd love to be able to not touch a single daily and get rep in Mists. Not so much. And actually the way to grind rep in BC was to run dungeons. If you wanted ogrila and shatari you did dailies but I didn't touch those, they didn't have any gear or progression upgrades on them. In fact double dipping has been a part of this game longer than dailies. Did any of you actually play bc? BC didn't even have rep tabards....
    Lots who played BC don't remember it.....get it lol

    Also i agree with you 100%
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  4. #1224
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crakkerz View Post
    People complained that in CATA, everything was just handed to people and it was easy mode. People complained that world PvP was dead and that nobody had any reason to leave ORG/SW. The world was so disjointed that players didn't feel immersed in the zones, stories, or content.

    Blizzard makes changes to address the complaints.

    People complain that they have to actual work towards building reputation and quest instead. Why can't I fly...this sucks....I don't want to be forced to WPvP or "enjoy" the content. Why can't I just grind rep through dungeon queue's with a tabard? I don't want to be forced to leave my capitals.

    What have we learned? WoW players are NEVER satisfied and have no idea what they want, aside from wanting something to bitch about.
    Dailies don't actually make things harder to get. Their just a contrivance to get people out of Org. World PVP is still dead because dailies don't actually promote that system. Most people just want to get the whole thing over with and not deal with fucking allies or horde so they don't fuck with allies or horde.

    Dailies do not address these problems in the slightest. In fact many of the changes they made don't address these problems at all. I'm still not even remotely immersed. Immersion is dead in this game and has been for awhile primarily because you can see so much of whats going on behind the game that you don't get lost in it like you used to. Need to figure out a spec? Elitist jerks? need to see where the mobs you need are? built in quest finder need any information about the game at all? wowhead. No discovery and no immersion there. It's not skyrim and it's not a sandbox game.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-02 at 09:49 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    I've also seen complaints about why they should even have to level any alts after seeing the content once. The particular complaint cited they had 20 alts and didn't want to level all of them.

    It's true, the player base will always complain. If one group likes it, another group won't. I think it will blow over with 5.1 somewhat. The anti-daily folks will be able to do more with their gear and valor without doing dailies with that patch.
    I don't recall anyone complaining that the game had a stunning lack of dailies and yet here we are...
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  5. #1225
    My personal opinion on the way it should have been done:

    1. Introduce many new reputations that can be advanced through dailies.

    2. Introduce an armor vendor who you have to earn a certain reputation with. ((I know the intent was to limit the amount of 'free gear' from just farming heroics, but what blizz doesn't get is that most people LOVE to farm heroics.)) Grinding ANY heroic dungeon will grant reputaion with this armor vendor and he/she will have items/gear at all levels. ((Obv. exalted would have best around 460-465 illv))

    3. Give each reputation vendor epic gear ((470+)) to entice people to do the dailies. This would allow most people to just farm heroics and be able to enter LFR while the more dedicated players could max all reps and have an edge going into normal/heroic raids.

    I know the argument around is you are not forced to grind dailies to be able to play, but until you do you are wasting JP/VP. Grinding faction rep has always been a fun thing ((starting to decline in WotLK)) that would takes weeks/MONTHS to complete. I have yet to Get exalted with Hydraxian Waterlords being as casual a player as I have been since I started at BC launch date. Now reputations are almost meaningless it seems.

    Being 'exalted' with a MOP rep is like having an 'epic' weapon... who gives a shit?
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  6. #1226
    You're right, towards the end of Wrath. I think Blizzard introduced a little too much and it got out of control. They're closing Pandora's Box now and people are fighting that. When Wrath launched you were still gated by the daily heroic lockout. MoP is more like the vanilla model and that's intentional, but here's the prime difference: LFR.

    You'll get your gear primarily from raiding, but LFR makes raiding extremely accessible. We'll see if new heroics are introduced alongside raid patches, but with LFR meant to be its own progression path for the masses who can't do normal raiding (due to schedule, lack of interest, etc) while raiding is the main path for raiders. The leg up will be upgrading gear with valor points. I honestly think Blizz should have just pulled that trigger at launch instead of waiting for 5.1 to put it in.

    Yes, you could run dungeons for rep just to get into heroics. Then you'd run heroics to get gear. And by the time most folks I knew were in Karazhan they still hadn't capped off their rep in heroics. And those factions rewarded you with epics that were lower ilvl than Karazhan. Ogri'la and Skyguard gave a couple epics...also lower than Karazhan.

    But we didn't have LFR then either.

    Had Blizzard implemented LFR going into Wrath, the scope would have been ENTIRELY different. I don't think it's necessary to remove valor gear from rep vendors; it gives non-raiders something they can do working through dailies to progress. With 5.1 we'll be focusing on dungeons/heroics as our progression paths, which is probably how it would have remained through previous expansions had LFR been an option.

    But really, with 5.1 implementing the upgrade, and people who hate dailies no longer needing to do dailies for gear, won't that solve a lot of the disagreement?
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  7. #1227
    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    No not really. It's not massively small as you say it's pretty much everyone who likes to get rewards outside of the raid. That's alot of people. It isn't about the gear itself, you keep getting fixated on that for no reason. It's about the sense of reward you get from the game being far less than it has at any point in the games history save vanilla.
    Yes but the people who want gear outside of raids who

    a) Don't raid
    b) Don't PvP and
    c) Don't enjoy dailies

    ...is pretty small. Because most of the people I know who fitted all 3 of those things, also didn't give a fuck about having pimp gear. So no, I'd say the majoirty of people complaining are being dumb because theres no NEED to do any dailies whatsoever. And I get fixated on the gear only becuase its the reason people give for HAVING to do these dailies...
    While Diogenes was relaxing in the sunlight in the morning, Alexander, thrilled to meet the famous philosopher, asked if there was any favour he might do for him. Diogenes replied, "Yes, stand out of my sunlight". Alexander then declared, "If I were not Alexander, then I should wish to be Diogenes", to which Diogenes replied, "If I were not Diogenes, I should also wish to be Diogenes."

  8. #1228
    I hate dailies. I am required to do them to get some mediocre gear so I can feel good about myself. I will then complain about being required to do dailies.

    After having to suffer through the month of required dailies, I will then sit in a major faction city of my choice and complain that I have nothing to do.

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    Last edited by Marema; 2012-11-02 at 10:03 PM.

  9. #1229
    Quote Originally Posted by dangelo37 View Post

    I know the argument around is you are not forced to grind dailies to be able to play, but until you do you are wasting JP/VP.
    JP aren't useful for anything at the moment, that much I'll grant you, is broken. Give us a JP trade goods vendor please (and an honor one too please).

    VP aren't useful for anything at the moment, except to the non raider to get the best gear they can attain. Making getting the best gear you can attain take 3-4 weeks is not a BAD model at all, yes its stretched things out a bit, but seeing as they don't actually need that gear for anything other than having it (they don't raid) theres plenty else to do in the game still (which presumably they *are* interested in, as they are still playing).

    Roll on 5.1

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-02 at 10:05 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by dangelo37 View Post
    My personal opinion on the way it should have been done:

    1. Introduce many new reputations that can be advanced through dailies.

    2. Introduce an armor vendor who you have to earn a certain reputation with. ((I know the intent was to limit the amount of 'free gear' from just farming heroics, but what blizz doesn't get is that most people LOVE to farm heroics.)) Grinding ANY heroic dungeon will grant reputaion with this armor vendor and he/she will have items/gear at all levels. ((Obv. exalted would have best around 460-465 illv))

    3. Give each reputation vendor epic gear ((470+)) to entice people to do the dailies. This would allow most people to just farm heroics and be able to enter LFR while the more dedicated players could max all reps and have an edge going into normal/heroic raids.

    I know the argument around is you are not forced to grind dailies to be able to play, but until you do you are wasting JP/VP. Grinding faction rep has always been a fun thing ((starting to decline in WotLK)) that would takes weeks/MONTHS to complete. I have yet to Get exalted with Hydraxian Waterlords being as casual a player as I have been since I started at BC launch date. Now reputations are almost meaningless it seems.

    Being 'exalted' with a MOP rep is like having an 'epic' weapon... who gives a shit?
    Apart from the armour vendor giving out 463 lvl gear which you can only access by grinding heroics for rep, (which in itself just seems obsolete, you're grinding heroics already because you love it, just use the drops from that surely) is that not EXACTLY the model they've got now...
    While Diogenes was relaxing in the sunlight in the morning, Alexander, thrilled to meet the famous philosopher, asked if there was any favour he might do for him. Diogenes replied, "Yes, stand out of my sunlight". Alexander then declared, "If I were not Alexander, then I should wish to be Diogenes", to which Diogenes replied, "If I were not Diogenes, I should also wish to be Diogenes."

  10. #1230
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    JP aren't useful for anything at the moment, that much I'll grant you, is broken. Give us a JP trade goods vendor please (and an honor one too please).

    VP aren't useful for anything at the moment, except to the non raider to get the best gear they can attain. Making getting the best gear you can attain take 3-4 weeks is not a BAD model at all, yes its stretched things out a bit, but seeing as they don't actually need that gear for anything other than having it (they don't raid) theres plenty else to do in the game still (which presumably they *are* interested in, as they are still playing).

    Roll on 5.1
    its going to take longer then 3-4weeks just cause there is a 1k weekly valor cap so we don't need the rep tited to the gear as well making it longer.
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  11. #1231
    Quote Originally Posted by morfraen View Post
    Daily's are optional content. People need to stop complaining about being 'required' to do them all every day :P
    Everything is optional content.

    There is no such thing as optional content...

    PVP is optional, PVE is optional, your opinion is not optimal.

    Dailies are a major way of gearing up as fast as possible, saying they are optional is just stupid.
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  12. #1232
    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    No not really. It's not massively small as you say it's pretty much everyone who likes to get rewards outside of the raid. That's alot of people. It isn't about the gear itself, you keep getting fixated on that for no reason. It's about the sense of reward you get from the game being far less than it has at any point in the games history save vanilla.
    Indeed. Raids were never rewarding per se. It were Badges/Emblems which were making people feel some kind of reward. And now they came and took it away from raiders. I don't know for others, but by doing this they completely broke any feeling of reward. It was bad enough in TBC, monthes running Hyjal without single drop till very WotLK, tanking with Naxx weapon and shield in ToGC25 content, and so on. Friend had to use pvp healing shield for DS hc, because Atramedes, Beth'tilac and Warmaster never dropped spirit shields.

    Why bother to get any raid reward in game then? Can just kill bosses once for satisfaction or even watch youtube videos. Instead of fixing lottery system in raids, they just added many other skinner boxes, and now everyone with eyes can see game for all it's glory - skinner boxes and nothing else just for the sake of artificially extending content.

    And yeah, as someone before noted, don't hate people, hate the system :P

  13. #1233
    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    Dailies don't actually make things harder to get. Their just a contrivance to get people out of Org. World PVP is still dead because dailies don't actually promote that system. Most people just want to get the whole thing over with and not deal with fucking allies or horde so they don't fuck with allies or horde.

    Dailies do not address these problems in the slightest. In fact many of the changes they made don't address these problems at all. I'm still not even remotely immersed. Immersion is dead in this game and has been for awhile primarily because you can see so much of whats going on behind the game that you don't get lost in it like you used to. Need to figure out a spec? Elitist jerks? need to see where the mobs you need are? built in quest finder need any information about the game at all? wowhead. No discovery and no immersion there. It's not skyrim and it's not a sandbox game.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-02 at 09:49 PM ----------



    I don't recall anyone complaining that the game had a stunning lack of dailies and yet here we are...
    1. They ARE harder for you because they're trivial, therefore you're too lazy to go and do them, no matter how much you complain I'd like to point out that you're complaining on here while you could be putting in some music, go out and do your dailies, bam, done, get it over with. It's called willpower.

    2. You're sitting here and scrutinizing WoW yet you bring up Skyrim? What happens after you get everything in Skyrim? Every quest done? Every cavern/tomb discovered? Oh, you put it away on a shelf, until you get ONE expansion, you do that in maybe a month, you're done.

    WoW? I can guarantee you that you haven't done everything this game has to offer, considering there's only one person to have technically "beaten" WoW, that's how much content there is.

    You're just choosing to not do them, and then turn around and complain about nothing to do.

    You know what you sound like? My super picky sister, when she opened the fridge when we were little. *Sees entire fridge stocked full of food* There's nothing to eat. What she MEANT was there's nothing SHE wanted to eat, yet she had loads of options, even using her own car, and the money she made from her job, and going out and buying her own groceries. My parents weren't going to just buy everything over again or sector off a butt load of their grocery list just because she was an extremely picky eater.

    In this aspect, it's gaming, so what I would like for you to do, is put WoW down, walk away from it, go find something else to do until WoW has something that engages you again. Whoolah.

    Blizzard catered to casuals once, and it put them in a pretty big hole.
    Last edited by Stormtrooperz; 2012-11-02 at 10:19 PM.

  14. #1234
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferocity View Post
    Indeed. Raids were never rewarding per se. It were Badges/Emblems which were making people feel some kind of reward. And now they came and took it away from raiders. I don't know for others, but by doing this they completely broke any feeling of reward. It was bad enough in TBC, monthes running Hyjal without single drop till very WotLK, tanking with Naxx weapon and shield in ToGC25 content, and so on. Friend had to use pvp healing shield for DS hc, because Atramedes, Beth'tilac and Warmaster never dropped spirit shields.

    Why bother to get any raid reward in game then? Can just kill bosses once for satisfaction or even watch youtube videos. Instead of fixing lottery system in raids, they just added many other skinner boxes, and now everyone with eyes can see game for all it's glory - skinner boxes and nothing else just for the sake of artificially extending content.

    And yeah, as someone before noted, don't hate people, hate the system :P
    Couldn't agree more and because of the current system i can't progress in what i enjoy doing *solo's as a prot pally* so i have decided to leave. I'm sure other players are enjoying themselfs and i say congratz to them but there is a decent amount of players who do not like the current system and want change.

    The new vendor in 5.1 that sells the valor gear at 150% cost is just as much of a grind as the daily's so i get a shitty choice do daily's and get gear at 1250 valor each or buy from this vendor for about 1750 valor.....

    To me everything blizzard is doing this xpac feels like they want to gate every inch content as long as they can so they do not need to pump out content faster then there current rate.....
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  15. #1235
    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    Couldn't agree more and because of the current system i can't progress in what i enjoy doing *solo's as a prot pally* so i have decided to leave. I'm sure other players are enjoying themselfs and i say congratz to them but there is a decent amount of players who do not like the current system and want change.

    The new vendor in 5.1 that sells the valor gear at 150% cost is just as much of a grind as the daily's so i get a shitty choice do daily's and get gear at 1250 valor each or buy from this vendor for about 1750 valor.....

    To me everything blizzard is doing this xpac feels like they want to gate every inch content as long as they can so they do not need to pump out content faster then there current rate.....
    In an MMO?

    Oh boy.

  16. #1236
    Quote Originally Posted by DanTheMan View Post

    The tabard system worked why they changed it god knows...
    I cant find it, but there was a blue, saying that tabard system had no link to the faction, it was just running dungeons. Only link was the name of the tabard and that status text in your chat saying "reputation with ******* increased by **". And i must admit they are right.

    In cata i was thinking about those specific factions only when I forgot to change the tabard and i was like" oh shi.t I did two dungeons without getting any rep.

    So, those tabards of yours, they are pretty lame. Go and do some daily, instead of creating topics at mmo ;-)
    Last edited by Matash; 2012-11-02 at 10:50 PM.

  17. #1237
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormtrooperz View Post
    1. They ARE harder for you because they're trivial, therefore you're too lazy to go and do them, no matter how much you complain I'd like to point out that you're complaining on here while you could be putting in some music, go out and do your dailies, bam, done, get it over with. It's called willpower.
    you need to read this back to yourself. you need to think about what you have just said.

    you are basically having a go at someone for not being determined enough to face a task that needs no skill, no intelligence, and brings no enjoyment. in a game. i wouldnt describe that as being lazy, i would suggest that is being sensible.

    games should provide two things; challenge and fun. some parts of games can get away with providing one or the other, and still be worthwhile. the dailies in mop provide neither. i cannot imagine why anyone would want to spend money to get a level of content they could get from a bunch of Zynga games for free.

    Blizzard get enough income to produce a massive amount of content. they have decided instead to pocket 80% of that income and produce content that you do a massive amount of times. and people like you not only defend that, but come on this forum and actively insult anyone who dares to question it. i swear it makes no sense to me, its treating this game like a religion or a cult.
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  18. #1238
    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post

    To me everything blizzard is doing this xpac feels like they want to gate every inch content as long as they can so they do not need to pump out content faster then there current rate.....
    Dude they make shit-tonnes of content you won't/don't/can't do, your opinions on how fast they pump it out are worthless. You only play wow to solo content over an expansion old...

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-02 at 10:48 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
    you need to read this back to yourself. you need to think about what you have just said.

    you are basically having a go at someone for not being determined enough to face a task that needs no skill, no intelligence, and brings no enjoyment. in a game. i wouldnt describe that as being lazy, i would suggest that is being sensible.

    games should provide two things; challenge and fun. some parts of games can get away with providing one or the other, and still be worthwhile. the dailies in mop provide neither. i cannot imagine why anyone would want to spend money to get a level of content they could get from a bunch of Zynga games for free.

    Blizzard get enough income to produce a massive amount of content. they have decided instead to pocket 80% of that income and produce content that you do a massive amount of times. and people like you not only defend that, but come on this forum and actively insult anyone who dares to question it. i swear it makes no sense to me, its treating this game like a religion or a cult.
    You're argument would have some weight if dailies were the ONLY content in the game but this expac has seen more content included than I care to list. So your argument is fundamentally flawed, go away and think about it...
    While Diogenes was relaxing in the sunlight in the morning, Alexander, thrilled to meet the famous philosopher, asked if there was any favour he might do for him. Diogenes replied, "Yes, stand out of my sunlight". Alexander then declared, "If I were not Alexander, then I should wish to be Diogenes", to which Diogenes replied, "If I were not Diogenes, I should also wish to be Diogenes."

  19. #1239
    Quote Originally Posted by morfraen View Post
    Daily's are optional content. People need to stop complaining about being 'required' to do them all every day :P
    Dailies AREN'T CONTENT! You know that thing you do every day where you go and do the same stuff over and over? It's called a job. I wish Blizzard got rid of dailies in favor of something else. They have conveniently used dailies as a crutch for stuff to do, it's in no way content. What is content? Performing quests with other people in order to get stuff done or advance some kind of server wide event, like AQ40 gates, at least it adds something to the term MMO. As it stands you log in, do your wow chores, and raid. If PVP wasn't so awful I'd do that but I ended up unsubbing because I and others are bored to tears grinding pretending that this is something fun.

  20. #1240
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    JP aren't useful for anything at the moment, that much I'll grant you, is broken. Give us a JP trade goods vendor please (and an honor one too please).

    VP aren't useful for anything at the moment, except to the non raider to get the best gear they can attain. Making getting the best gear you can attain take 3-4 weeks is not a BAD model at all, yes its stretched things out a bit, but seeing as they don't actually need that gear for anything other than having it (they don't raid) theres plenty else to do in the game still (which presumably they *are* interested in, as they are still playing).

    Roll on 5.1

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-02 at 10:05 PM ----------



    Apart from the armour vendor giving out 463 lvl gear which you can only access by grinding heroics for rep, (which in itself just seems obsolete, you're grinding heroics already because you love it, just use the drops from that surely) is that not EXACTLY the model they've got now...
    Excuse the ilvl numbers. I don't put a lot of thought into those and I'm sure other people could come up with a better progression for them than the ones I set up.

    OT: No, the model they have now is get revered with a rep and get a single piece of gear. Then move go another rep, get revered, and repeat. You cannot get into LFR by just grinding Heroics as the gear isn't up to snuff. It feels like it is 'forced' on players to get revered/exalted with x,y, and z factions just to try to stay on the curve.

    If there was a centralized area to get gear from ((Read: One vendor)) than people could really do dailies at their own leisure instead of being 'forced' into doing them. I stand by my argument that reputations have always been a fun albeit unnecessary thing to do in the game until Wrath/Cata/MoP.
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