Is it shameful to lose to Second Wind?

[ultimar235]

Was trying cap on my alt Demonology lock and faced a fury and arms warrior. My partner was a Ret paladin who ding'd yesterday so we not talking good ratings, etc or even pvp gear.

So everyone clashed in middle all CD's popped, etc. Situation arose we killed fury, my partner died, and arms was left. But he decided to just run round the boxes in the sewer and i couldn't get him out and do enough damage before he was back running round. Once his CD's were back he jumped out, serious damage on me, broke my CC's and I lost.

Not really sure what I could have done.

[Deleted]

nah it aint shamefull too loose too second wind, its one of the main reasons why warriors are so OP atm

[Deleted]

The warrior would have to be mentally challenged not to win against a warlock at same mmr as him.

[kroniks]

Not at all! It is a brainless talent.

If you get a warrior deep into second wind range then you have beaten the warrior regardless. If the warrior beats you because of second wind, you have still won. That is how broken second wind is. The gear will either eventually be too much for second wind or bliz will drop a nerf after they think warriors have had enough fun.

[Myci]

nah it aint shamefull too loose too second wind, its one of the main reasons why warriors are so OP atm

This really has nothing to do with why they are so op lol. Its good in bgs, and op in 2s maybe, but is hardly noticeable in 3s. 99% of the people who qq about this are doing so because they cant 1v1 them with it( which is still pretty doable if done right). Game isnt made for 1v1
They are OP from their extremely high burst, and great mobility/control giving them constant uptime.

@op 1v1 while hes huging pillars makes it a pain, so i definately wouldnt say its shameful I mean as long as you try to learn what to do better next time

[Deleted]

but is hardly noticeable in 3s. 99%

it's still retarded in 3s. While you can realistically kill other classes outside of major cooldowns once they're low and the healer is sitting in a cc, a warrior can survive forever in def stance with second wind. You simply have to pop something to kill one unless he's sitting in the open like an idiot and can't find his shockwave button

[fizzbob]

right now warriors are exactly like blood dks were when they could sit in UH presence and stack blood shields, he's doing as much/more damage than you but can passively mitigate most of what you do so you're just simply in the hole at the start

[Nicola]

As demonology you can't really do much except abusing the amount of instant casts you have in meta.
Without meta or without cooldowns, you lose 100% against a warrior unless they are braindead.

[Deleted]

I think its more a matter of "psychologi"..ppl are used to see warriors as sitting ducks and targetdummies for almost 2 years up to now.
None have really bother to figure out how to kill a warrior, cause they have been such a "freekill" for so long.
Now when warrs got there mobilty back and some utility AND a shitload of burstdmg!...Everyone just whining about that, instead of trying to adapt and learn how to shoutdown/kill a warrior!
When a warr pops his Dmg CD u can either disarm/dismantle or use most of CC u got aginst him.
Or just use u own def. CD
If he turtle in Def.stance and relay on secondwind...U just wait for u own Dmg CD to be up..and nuke him.
A warr without a healer cant go over 35% health with secondwind...IF u dont let him use Bandage(and any tick/dot prevent bandaging)
So with all respect guys...its about adapting and learning.

[Babylucifer]

Except there's not really much to learn when you're faced with a talent that provides immense benefit that's essentially an endless cooldown and doesn't even need to be activated. All you've got to know is that if you see second wind, you're probably going to lose unless you've got all your cooldowns available, you're not being hassled, the warrior doesn't have backup, and he's not got the response time needed for PVP. If any of these are false, you're pretty SOL.

The only people that could realistically beat a competent Warrior using second wind are other Warriors also using second wind, who happen to have more burst, or a BM hunter with CD's up.

It needs to be toned down because quite frankly, it's ridiculous when they can sit at 35% and beat down just about anyone who tries to finish them. It works through stuns and CC, it can't be removed or dispelled, and it's extremely difficult to burst through 126K HP (assuming 360K HP on the Warrior). Their damage output isn't even affected by it. It heals for far too much, at too quick a rate, and doesn't hinder them in any way. It needs either nerfing in some way (e.g. lasts for 15 seconds, heals for more, but can't happen more than once every 2 minutes), or needs to have a negative side to it (though with the new talent system, this is unlikely to happen). Perhaps that "once per 2 minutes" suggestion could only apply if they were brought below 35% by a player, thus meaning PVE is completely unaffected.

An entire tier of warlock talents disagree with you sir. Percentage of life to use sucks.

[Punctured]

nah it aint shamefull too loose too second wind, its one of the main reasons why warriors are so OP atm

You still cant do 8k DPS ? I did 8k DPS on my Death-Knight at level 80 in WOTLK.

---------- Post added 2012-10-31 at 05:44 AM ----------

Except there's not really much to learn when you're faced with a talent that provides immense benefit that's essentially an endless cooldown and doesn't even need to be activated. All you've got to know is that if you see second wind, you're probably going to lose unless you've got all your cooldowns available, you're not being hassled, the warrior doesn't have backup, and he's not got the response time needed for PVP. If any of these are false, you're pretty SOL.

The only people that could realistically beat a competent Warrior using second wind are other Warriors also using second wind, who happen to have more burst, or a BM hunter with CD's up.

It needs to be toned down because quite frankly, it's ridiculous when they can sit at 35% and beat down just about anyone who tries to finish them. It works through stuns and CC, it can't be removed or dispelled, and it's extremely difficult to burst through 126K HP (assuming 360K HP on the Warrior). Their damage output isn't even affected by it. It heals for far too much, at too quick a rate, and doesn't hinder them in any way. It needs either nerfing in some way (e.g. lasts for 15 seconds, heals for more, but can't happen more than once every 2 minutes), or needs to have a negative side to it (though with the new talent system, this is unlikely to happen). Perhaps that "once per 2 minutes" suggestion could only apply if they were brought below 35% by a player, thus meaning PVE is completely unaffected.

You realize Second Wind has been nerfed to 2.5% healing for quite a few weeks now right ? This is a learn to play issue.

[Deleted]

You still cant do 8k DPS ? I did 8k DPS on my Death-Knight at level 80 in WOTLK.

Yeah, doing 8k wouldn't be a problem if you actually had time to freecast, however, with the kind of lockdown capabilities warriors have against casters right now, even getting a cast or two off is a freaking miracle.

[Deleted]

Actually second win can be a tough barrier to overcome for inexperienced players since its a very strong 1v1 talent. But you dont have to be worry about it being shameful.
Many classes in this game right now lose to a single big red hunter pet and they are not ashamed.

[Babylucifer]

I believe some of those issue are being alleviated. I think the glyph that gave warriors a ranged silence ( cant remember the name) no longer works on players. warriors are still strong though. Its the 1st season in an expac, don't expect balance in pvp.

[Punctured]

Yeah, doing 8k wouldn't be a problem if you actually had time to freecast, however, with the kind of lockdown capabilities warriors have against casters right now, even getting a cast or two off is a freaking miracle.

Um dots alone do more than 8k DPS. Considering this is a thread about Warlock Vs. Warrior, if youre losing to a Warrior as a Warlock right now its absolutely shameful, especially after the nerf to Berserker Rage prior to Mists of Pandaria Release.

Negating Warrior Burst is as easy as using Demonic Teleport and playing the LOS game, i do it all the time on my Warlock. Warriors by far have the easiest burst to negate/mitigate.

This isnt even including recent nerfs that will make Warriors completely Target dummies again in 5.1

[Deleted]

Um dots alone do more than 8k DPS. Considering this is a thread about Warlock Vs. Warrior

Dots do about 20k before resilience/PvPP, let's assume 50% resilience and 20% PvPP and you end up with a 30% damage decrease, that leaves you at 14k dps as affliction without casting MG/DS/FF, now, this thread wasn't about affliction in the first place, it was about demo, which means that your argument about dots is moot considering demo only has one dot with 100% uptime, resulting in it not being enough to get through SW. Regardless, the remaining 6k dps that you have assuming 100% dot uptime on the warrior during SW will leave him ample time to shred you. This isn't so much about skill as it is warriors initially having too many tools to prevent casters, regardless of being in melee range or not, and too much mobility to be reliably kited.

[Babylucifer]

Imo the 2 things warlocks just cant really deal with atm are BM hunters, and most warriors. We just dont have the capability. Not shameful at all imo

[Deleted]

it's still retarded in 3s. While you can realistically kill other classes outside of major cooldowns once they're low and the healer is sitting in a cc, a warrior can survive forever in def stance with second wind. You simply have to pop something to kill one unless he's sitting in the open like an idiot and can't find his shockwave button

Second Wind heals for 13k per sec if you and your partner cant do more then 13k dps together then there is your problem. The problem aint second wind why warriors are to strong. The issue with warriors is the following.

Pummel gag order silence (OP)
5 stacks TbF (OP) (critted a hunter for 155k with HS)
cooldown stacking (OP) (Avatar Reck Banner Rage)
Shockwave (OP)

and with the upcoming change Warrior will be nerfed anyway.
Not a single ranged silence and avatar will be useless so warriors will take stormbolt and keep the target stunned to death.

[Flaks]

Yes it is. Every single class in the game is capable of bursting a warrior through second wind even without blowing all defensive cds.

Like the above poster said, the problem isn't second wind, it's everything else. Actually I agree with everything youwow said. The nerfs that are coming are in the wrong direction.

What SHOULD happen:
Remove pummel from glyph of gag order. KEEP HEROIC THROW ON IT.
Remove TfB stacking. Put something else not so blatantly broken and that increases the skill cap instead of being an RNG mess.
Lock out avatar and recklessness.
Increase shockwave cd to 25-30 seconds and/or reduce stun duration to 2 seconds.

With all the bitching about second wind I'll propose an entirely unnecessary change: nerf defensive stance damage reduction to 15%. Reduce die by the sword cd to 1 minute. Remove shield wall.

[Deleted]

I'd rather want retaliation back then getting die by the sword.
DBTS can be counter so badly. Just stun the war and disarm. If I see a warrior using DBTS i charge him and disarm him and he cant parry.