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  1. #21
    The state of your Bandit's Guile isn't as important as some of you make it out to be. Rupture does more damage per energy than one Eviscerate whether it's at 0%, 10%, 20% or 30%. Unless you are actively saving up 5 anticipation charges to delay finishers which I somehow doubt hardly anyone does you should simply apply Rupture the moment it drops off. Also reapplying before the final tick doesn't impact or change your DPS in any way shape or form. The tick still goes off with the damage and insight level it was applied.

    tl;dr,
    If you don't have Rupture ticking on your target, you aren't cleaving with Blade Flurry and the full duration of Rupture will tick, apply Rupture. If you used Eviscerate on accident or couldn't Rupture for some reason, oh well no big deal. But weaving in Ruptures regardless of your state of procs and buffs will increase your DPS a slight amount.
    Bovan.9481
    Completed legendaries: Twilight, Sunrise (Eternity), Bolt, Frostfang, The Juggernaut, Howler.
    Current projects: Azureflame, Incinerator, Champion Legionnaire, versatile mighty infusions.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    Also reapplying before the final tick doesn't impact or change your DPS in any way shape or form. The tick still goes off with the damage and insight level it was applied.
    That is very incorrect. If you clip the last tick, the last tick does damage based on the new rupture, not the old (so you end up with 11 ticks at old rupture, 13 ticks at new rupture damage, not 12+12), so if you clip a the last tick of a deep insight rupture with a shallow insight rupture, you DO lose damage. It's only a couple hundred damage and not really noticable in the long run, but it IS a damage loss.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    The state of your Bandit's Guile isn't as important as some of you make it out to be. Rupture does more damage per energy than one Eviscerate whether it's at 0%, 10%, 20% or 30%. [...] you should simply apply Rupture the moment it drops off.
    You're wrong here. While it's true that Rupture does do more DPE than Evisc at any insight, that DPE scales relative to Eviscerate with the insight level. This is important for Rupture because it's a DoT, meaning applying it at a lower insight blocks you from applying it at a higher insight, which in turn blocks you from the relatively larger DPE.

    Looking just at DPE for Rupture vs Eviscerate is not effective in the frame of insight, which is a timed, cyclical effect. Do you see a time aspect to DPE? No. So there is more to consider here than simple DPE. Yes, applying Rupture at any insight is a DPS gain when compared to simply using Eviscerate; however, it's also a DPS loss when compared to applying Rupture at a higher insight within a given amount amount of time.

    You also imply here that you should maintain 100% Rupture uptime, regardless of CP. I'm not sure if you meant it this way, because it's loosely implied, but that's incorrect. The energy cost is static no matter how many CPs you use, thus low CP Ruptures provide a lower DPE than 5CP ones. Not to mention damage does not scale linearly with CPs, as damage per tick and duration are altered by the amount of CPs consumed. Rupture uptime as a metric itself is not important for Combat and should be ignored.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    Unless you are actively saving up 5 anticipation charges to delay finishers which I somehow doubt hardly anyone does
    Why wouldn't people do this? That and extending yellow insight are the only real depth the spec has. It's akin to pooling before Envenom as Assassination in order to land your builders inside the buff. It's a somewhat small optimization, maybe a few thousand DPS, but why wouldn't you? That's like not enchanting or gemming all your gear because it doesn't matter very much, relatively. Or not reforging your gear because the gain is relatively small.

    Additionally, optimizing like this is the only thing that makes the spec fun for me. It's extremely bland on the surface.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    Also reapplying before the final tick doesn't impact or change your DPS in any way shape or form. The tick still goes off with the damage and insight level it was applied.
    This is incorrect again. The way clip protection works is it overwrites the old debuff with a new one and adds an additional tick to the new debuff. It does not simply queue the different debuffs up as you seem to think.

    Rupture maintains its damage when applied; it does not update based on procs or insights (which you seem to understand?). Therefore, if you overwrite the last tick of a red insight Rupture with a lower insight Rupture, that last tick will be applied at Rupture's new, lower damage and your DPS will go down. Conversely, overwriting the last tick of a lower insight Rupture with a higher insight Rupture, that last tick will be applied at Rupture's new, higher damage and your DPS will go up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    If you don't have Rupture ticking on your target, you aren't cleaving with Blade Flurry and the full duration of Rupture will tick, apply Rupture. If you used Eviscerate on accident or couldn't Rupture for some reason, oh well no big deal. But weaving in Ruptures regardless of your state of procs and buffs will increase your DPS a slight amount.
    Everything here is optimal except the underlined bit, as explained above.

    tl;dr: please stop spreading incorrect information as fact.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    That is very incorrect. If you clip the last tick, the last tick does damage based on the new rupture, not the old (so you end up with 11 ticks at old rupture, 13 ticks at new rupture damage, not 12+12), so if you clip a the last tick of a deep insight rupture with a shallow insight rupture, you DO lose damage. It's only a couple hundred damage and not really noticable in the long run, but it IS a damage loss.
    I don't know where you get the 12+12 number from, but elitistjerks says the following:
    ''Clipping the last tick of rupture from a higher insight level won't affect your dps. The higher damage for the clipped tick will be added to the first tick of your new rupture.''
    I didn't believe it either but it seems to be correct after messing around in-game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Squirl View Post
    You're wrong here. While it's true that Rupture does do more DPE than Evisc at any insight, that DPE scales relative to Eviscerate with the insight level. This is important for Rupture because it's a DoT, meaning applying it at a lower insight blocks you from applying it at a higher insight, which in turn blocks you from the relatively larger DPE.
    True, and I should have clarified that in my previous post. My previous post was more meant for those people who are saying ''Oh don't use Rupture at all, it's too much trouble and too hard to manage''. I simplified it by saying ''Using Rupture over Eviscerate at any point these small criteria are true is a DPS gain''. But yes delaying Rupture for a Deep Insight phase is a bigger DPS gain. But if you aren't able to manage that weaving in Rupture is always a DPS gain no matter what the state of your procs and buffs are. Rupture is more damage than Eviscerate no matter what.

    Quote Originally Posted by Squirl View Post
    Why wouldn't people do this? That and extending yellow insight are the only real depth the spec has. It's akin to pooling before Envenom as Assassination in order to land your builders inside the buff. It's a somewhat small optimization, maybe a few thousand DPS, but why wouldn't you? That's like not enchanting or gemming all your gear because it doesn't matter very much, relatively. Or not reforging your gear because the gain is relatively small.

    Additionally, optimizing like this is the only thing that makes the spec fun for me. It's extremely bland on the surface.
    Again I completely agree. I find Combat boring as hell, these little things are the only things keeping me interested during raids on fights where I'm forced to go Combat. But like I previously explained there seem to be a lot of people in this topic who aren't as much into min/maxing as some other people.
    Last edited by Bovan; 2012-11-04 at 11:54 AM.
    Bovan.9481
    Completed legendaries: Twilight, Sunrise (Eternity), Bolt, Frostfang, The Juggernaut, Howler.
    Current projects: Azureflame, Incinerator, Champion Legionnaire, versatile mighty infusions.

  5. #25
    Ah. I apologize if I came off as snide, then. I thought you were one of them.

    I'll have to look into the Rupture thing. It is indeed in their Combat guide, but there is no source. I remember seeing actual evidence to the contrary in an older thread when 5.0 (and clip protection) first came out. I haven't seen anything else since.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Squirl View Post
    Ah. I apologize if I came off as snide, then. I thought you were one of them.

    I'll have to look into the Rupture thing. It is indeed in their Combat guide, but there is no source. I remember seeing actual evidence to the contrary in an older thread when 5.0 (and clip protection) first came out. I haven't seen anything else since.
    Not your fault really, I should have been a little clearer in my first post. Like I said I didn't believe the Rupture thing at first either. But after a few (admittedly very, very short) tests it seemed to be correct.
    Bovan.9481
    Completed legendaries: Twilight, Sunrise (Eternity), Bolt, Frostfang, The Juggernaut, Howler.
    Current projects: Azureflame, Incinerator, Champion Legionnaire, versatile mighty infusions.

  7. #27
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    Once again, thanks for your input guys. I have one last question. If I am to use rupture, when would be best time to do so ? Before I posted this thread, I was using rupture only in deep insight.Every other time, I wasnt using rupture. Right now, I'm not really sure if I was doing it right.
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  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Squirl View Post
    Ah. I apologize if I came off as snide, then. I thought you were one of them.

    I'll have to look into the Rupture thing. It is indeed in their Combat guide, but there is no source. I remember seeing actual evidence to the contrary in an older thread when 5.0 (and clip protection) first came out. I haven't seen anything else since.
    I posted where they based that on earlier in this thread:

    from EJ:
    "Im not sure if this was mentioned somewhere already, but i tested the following with Rupture, because i was concerned if it turns out to be a DPS-loss and you probably want to know:

    - Apply 5 CP Rupture with a specific insight level (shallow, moderate, deep)
    - Clip the last tick(duration <= 3 seconds) with a 5 CP Rupture of a lower insight level compared to the one you've been in when applying the first Rupture.

    Result:
    The clipped tick not only increased the duration of the new Rupture by up to 3 seconds(this was known before ofc), but also merged the former higher damage due to a higher inside level into the first tick of the new rupture.

    Values:
    - 5 CP no insight ticks: 2429 dmg
    - 5 CP deep insight ticks: 3157 dmg
    - 5 CP no insight rupture clipping a tick of a 5 CP deep insight rupture ticks: 5585(~2429+3157) dmg for the first tick and the usual 2429 for the others"
    source: http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t130893-...8/#post2211070

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Khas View Post
    Once again, thanks for your input guys. I have one last question. If I am to use rupture, when would be best time to do so ? Before I posted this thread, I was using rupture only in deep insight.Every other time, I wasnt using rupture. Right now, I'm not really sure if I was doing it right.
    From worst to best, as concerns using rupture on single targets as combat:

    No rupture

    Rupture at 5 CP in low insight only.

    Rupture at 5 CP in deep insight only.

    Rupture at 5 CP in place of eviscerate whenever rupture isn't up and the boss will live through rupture.

    Rupture at 5 CP in place of eviscerate when rupture isn't up, with the following concerns covered: waiting for likely incoming procs like Relic, Bottle, Dancing Steel, new insight as are likely to appear within the next couple of seconds.

    I'm pretty sure* this still assumes that rupture does not cause you to energy cap, but I should really double check that. Might also be missing a tag or two in the "ideal" rupture line.

  10. #30
    Why would rupture only be better at low insight only? It has been established that it nolonger updates dynamically with insight levels multiple times in this thread. thats the only reason i can think of.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by eijin View Post
    Why would rupture only be better at low insight only? It has been established that it nolonger updates dynamically with insight levels multiple times in this thread. thats the only reason i can think of.
    You aren't able to apply Rupture in a better insight because the previous one is still ticking. Of course clipping several ticks is going to be a DPS loss. Using it at a high insight is basically delayed damage with the high insight bonus.

    It's really just a safeguard so you won't have a 20% Rupture ticking when Deep Insight goes off and you can't apply a 30% Rupture.
    Bovan.9481
    Completed legendaries: Twilight, Sunrise (Eternity), Bolt, Frostfang, The Juggernaut, Howler.
    Current projects: Azureflame, Incinerator, Champion Legionnaire, versatile mighty infusions.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    You aren't able to apply Rupture in a better insight because the previous one is still ticking. Of course clipping several ticks is going to be a DPS loss. Using it at a high insight is basically delayed damage with the high insight bonus.

    It's really just a safeguard so you won't have a 20% Rupture ticking when Deep Insight goes off and you can't apply a 30% Rupture.
    I'm not 100% sold that the difference between replacing a 10 or 20% evis with rupture and replacing a 30% evis with rupture is worth the combined downtime and additional consideration compared to replacing the "next" evis with rupture... before counting any trinket/proc uptimes outside of BG state.

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