Single target/Mut and Combat

[Grayjoy]

I have two 489 fist weapons from the Vaults, and this is kind of a curse. I despise combat. Mutilate is currently far better than combat on single targets, but I was curious as to how that holds up when the weapons of a combat rogue are superior. Essentially, are 2 463 daggers as assassination better than 2 489 fists for combat on a single target?

[Kael]

Stick with combat until you've gotten a dagger from somewhere. The ilevel weapon gap matters far too much.

[jtstormrage]

Yeah. Play whatever spec you have the best weapons for. However, I am with you on Combat. I hate the spec. It is so dull. I think it will be mandatory later on in the tier because the four piece tier bonus is SO strong for Combat although, until then, I am hoping Daggers drop for me before slow weapons.

[crbrearley]

I'll play anything--though I've no experience with subtlety that's simply because it's never been right for me at the time (wasn't a full time rogue until now). Having said that, I will admit I find combat painful. That's especially true with the way they did blade fury. Instead of modestly reducing damage, to reduce energy... That was just a bad, bad plan. There's never a reason to nerf our ability to do things.

[Lionym]

I'll play anything--though I've no experience with subtlety that's simply because it's never been right for me at the time (wasn't a full time rogue until now). Having said that, I will admit I find combat painful. That's especially true with the way they did blade fury. Instead of modestly reducing damage, to reduce energy... That was just a bad, bad plan. There's never a reason to nerf our ability to do things.

I honestly don't see why people complain about BF.. It's a 20% reduction to energy regen for a nearly 100% increase in damage. How is this a bad plan, exactly? Combat DPS on a fight with 2 targets in unparalleled and unrivaled.

[eijin]

I honestly don't see why people complain about BF.. It's a 20% reduction to energy regen for a nearly 100% increase in damage. How is this a bad plan, exactly? Combat DPS on a fight with 2 targets in unparalleled and unrivaled.

~76% of damage carries over from BF. taking into account all forms of energy regen, where energy went, global cooldowns, what does and dosnt carry over, time spent away from boss (and thus energy capping). I also factored in the amount of dpe lost due to never using rupture as opposed to evis. I was bored at work :P. BFing with a 100% uptime resulted in a 52% damage gain over fighting a single target with a full single target rotation. Numbers were taken from ONE stone guard HM kill, so of course, its more of a "general idea" thing.

however i do agree with you that the energy reduction isnt that terrible of a thing for them to do. with gear later on (higher teirs) it ends up becoming close to a non-issue. atleast in dragonsoul it was. without BF i often was reaching points where i had more energy than i could use.

[rayanne]

I have 2 489 fist weapons, and a 476 + 463 dagger. I still see assassination pulling higher single target DPS. I would just test it out to see the difference.

I've killed heroic stone guard multiple times, run LFR every week, wasted so many extra rolls, and NOTHING. I think my guild mates are tired of my lust for the 502 daggers. It's becoming obsessive.

[Squirl]

I have 2 489 fist weapons, and a 476 + 463 dagger. I still see assassination pulling higher single target DPS. I would just test it out to see the difference.

I've killed heroic stone guard multiple times, run LFR every week, wasted so many extra rolls, and NOTHING. I think my guild mates are tired of my lust for the 502 daggers. It's becoming obsessive.

I finally got mine this week. Hang in there, brother.

[eijin]

I have 2 of the heroic daggers but cant get better than an LFR fist -.-; and only one at that!. Maybe the last boss of heart of fear will like me more

[Lionym]

~76% of damage carries over from BF. taking into account all forms of energy regen, where energy went, global cooldowns, what does and dosnt carry over, time spent away from boss (and thus energy capping). I also factored in the amount of dpe lost due to never using rupture as opposed to evis. I was bored at work :P. BFing with a 100% uptime resulted in a 52% damage gain over fighting a single target with a full single target rotation. Numbers were taken from ONE stone guard HM kill, so of course, its more of a "general idea" thing.

however i do agree with you that the energy reduction isnt that terrible of a thing for them to do. with gear later on (higher teirs) it ends up becoming close to a non-issue. atleast in dragonsoul it was. without BF i often was reaching points where i had more energy than i could use.

I wish I could favorite this post! Great information, and thank you for running the numbers. I still feel validated in that BF is still a great situational spell where the pros far outweigh the cons.

[Kael]

I wish I could favorite this post! Great information, and thank you for running the numbers. I still feel validated in that BF is still a great situational spell where the pros far outweigh the cons.

It's TOO great a spell, removing any choice regarding what a rogue does on any fight where cleave is reasonable.

Edit: did I just read about a 165k combat daggers cleave on Garalon? /diesinside

[eijin]

I wish I could favorite this post! Great information, and thank you for running the numbers. I still feel validated in that BF is still a great situational spell where the pros far outweigh the cons.

glad to help :P. The origional reason i did it is because i cant manage to get good combat weapons (LFR fist) and i have great mut weapons (HM dagger x2). My mut's single target dps is substancially higher than my combat's single target dps due to spec and weapons. With the 4th, 5th and 6th fights in heart of fear all having a secondary target up only part of the time, would they be combat or mutilate fights then?

In -my- situation, i require atleast 28.5% uptime of a second target to make combat worth it as opposed to mutilate. 3rd, 4th and 5th bosses have mechanics that allow 1 target to take more damage (which can then be cleaved to the second target) that weigh heavily towards combat. i believe i will go mutilate on the final boss.

[Squirl]

It's TOO great a spell, removing any choice regarding what a rogue does on any fight where cleave is reasonable.

Edit: did I just read about a 165k combat daggers cleave on Garalon? /diesinside

It's essentially the same as someone doing 165k with two 463 swords, except maybe better because the better auto attack damage. You can't use KSp and SS/RvS make up a fairly small amount of your overall damage anyways.

[eijin]

It's TOO great a spell, removing any choice regarding what a rogue does on any fight where cleave is reasonable.

Edit: did I just read about a 165k combat daggers cleave on Garalon? /diesinside

I'd believe it, another rogue was talking about breaking 200k. It fully depends on your raid's stratagy though. if everyone switches to legs (or probably even just the melee) they will die fast leaving you without much cleave time. I was usually around 120-140k while tanking. The front 2 legs were fully mine, near 80% blade flurry time .

---------- Post added 2012-11-01 at 02:11 PM ----------

It's essentially the same as someone doing 165k with two 463 swords. You can't use KSp and SS/RvS make up a fairly small amount of your overall damage anyways.

Not quite. In the situation where you are using blade flurry, swords pull ahead more. While you cant KS, the biggest benifit of daggers is more poison damage. poison damage isnt reflected over with BF.

[Squirl]

glad to help :P. The origional reason i did it is because i cant manage to get good combat weapons (LFR fist) and i have great mut weapons (HM dagger x2). My mut's single target dps is substancially higher than my combat's single target dps due to spec and weapons. With the 4th, 5th and 6th fights in heart of fear all having a secondary target up only part of the time, would they be combat or mutilate fights then?

In -my- situation, i require atleast 28.5% uptime of a second target to make combat worth it as opposed to mutilate. 3rd, 4th and 5th bosses have mechanics that allow 1 target to take more damage (which can then be cleaved to the second target) that weigh heavily towards combat. i believe i will go mutilate on the final boss.

3rd, 4th, and 5th bosses are awesome for combat.
Garalon: Cleave off a leg in the weakened zone. Your raid should save most legs for you too, unless they think it's better for you to tank.
Wind Lord: So many adds. Once a set dies, you can cleave off the boss for 33%/66% increased damage on the remaining adds. P2 is just single target, but BF in P1 is so amazing that it's worth it.
Amber Shaper: There's almost always a construct to cleave to. Additionally, the Constructs stack a increased damage taken debuff on the boss. The strat we used allowed me to cleave the boss and Monstrosity in p2 when there weren't constructs to kill (we stacked the boss in p2 rather than the monstrosity to beat the soft enrage in p3).
Grand Emp: I haven't decided yet. Not enough time on the boss. BF will rock it in the add phases, but I think single target damage on the boss is more important, and it's tuned very tightly. I'll probably be rolling Assassination.

[eijin]

i 100% agree on 3 4 and 5 being fully combat. Im thinking if youre guild is lower on DPS and will get 2 phase 2s, then maybe combat would pull ahead, but i plan to go mutilate on it. Sadly we havent killed the 3rd boss yet :-/ only 1 raid day and we went to kil lthe farm HM bosses of MV before going there, 2nd raid day was canceled due to log in bug.

[Squirl]

i 100% agree on 3 4 and 5 being fully combat. Im thinking if youre guild is lower on DPS and will get 2 phase 2s, then maybe combat would pull ahead, but i plan to go mutilate on it. Sadly we havent killed the 3rd boss yet :-/ only 1 raid day and we went to kil lthe farm HM bosses of MV before going there, 2nd raid day was canceled due to log in bug.

That's shitty. Bosses 3-6 are the fun ones!

[Zhinkis]

I honestly don't see why people complain about BF.. It's a 20% reduction to energy regen for a nearly 100% increase in damage. How is this a bad plan, exactly? Combat DPS on a fight with 2 targets in unparalleled and unrivaled.

To me it's bad because it slows down the rotation and creates more downtime, and atleast in my opinion all time spent auto-attacking waiting to use an ability is not what i call fun time.