View Poll Results: Would you play this MMO?

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  • Yes

    6 18.75%
  • I would try it

    14 43.75%
  • No

    12 37.50%
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  1. #1

    Would you play this MMO?

    So every time I see a new mmo announced, I can't help but think "oh look, it's this again". Actually, with every new game that comes out it seems that developers are going further away from what (I feel) an mmorpg should be. So I decided to make a list of features that I feel would be ideal in an mmo I would want to play. The biggest issue I have with mmorpgs is immersion, so many of the features I'll propose will be tedious and based on reality, but I feel they will vastly increase immersion. Some of the systems are inspired (or copied directly) from pen and paper Dungeons and Dragons. With that in mind, here goes:

    Character Progression

    -Removal of character levels

    While it's nice to see a number that represents the strength of your character, I feel like it's something that has some drawbacks. Let's use WoW as an example. Currently the max level is 90. I'll use an orc warrior called Grom as an example. Grom starts out at level 1, doing around 2dps, and by the time he reaches 90 he's doing around 50k. This really bugs me, because I can't find a logical explanation for one character being 25,000 times stronger than another one. So simply remove character levels.

    "But how will we have character progression?" you'll ask. "It's a major part of the roleplaying game". And you're right, but there are much better ways to progress than simply leveling up and getting stronger automatically every time you hit a certain XP threshold.

    -Attributes that increase/decrease depending on your actions

    For example, Grom swings his axe around all day, so his Strength gradually increases. A mage that practices magic all day or discovers lore might increase his Intelligence. There would also be situations that could temporarily or even permanently lower an attribute.

    Similar to the attribute system of Dungeons and Dragons, let’s say your average person has a strength of 8, that would give him a -1 modifier to damage etc. Doing actions that increase strength, could raise the stat to something like a cap of 20 giving a +5 modifier. Each point increase would be harder to raise and take longer. Basically, instead of leveling your character as a whole, you individually level each Attribute.

    -A logical equipment system

    Removal of character levels would obviously also effect level based gear.

    Ordinary armor no longer has +stats on it. The difference between a naked Warrior and one wearing full plate armor will simply be protection, and encumbrance, rather than also increasing your health pool and suddenly making you hit stuff harder. Heavy armor = slows you down, offers more protection. Light armor = less protection, more mobility.

    Damage will be based on the weapon you're using (for physical classes), or the individual spells for casters.

    There will be magically imbued equipment, with up to +10 in certain stats (with the more powerful stuff being increasingly rare or difficult to craft), but it won't make such a difference as it does in most MMORPGS. A fully equipped character with +10 gear equipped in every slot will only be around 10% stronger than one wearing ordinary mundane gear.

    -Evolving skill system

    Simply put, your skills will level up with use, becoming more powerful. Combos and more efficient attacks become unlocked over time. Skills will be limited to special attacks, with the majority of combat being based around swinging your weapon as in action games (think Dark Souls, or Skyrim). No more cooldown based priority system action bar button mashing nonsense.

    Combat System

    Action based, free targeting combat system (again, think Dark Souls, or Skyrim). Not much more to say here. Active dodging/blocking/parrying, line of sight, character collision, and all that good stuff. If you want to hit that monster you better not try to shoot your arrow through the guy in front of you. "Tanks" will be able to intercept ranged/melee attacks aimed at other players simply by moving between them, etc.

    Gameplay and Features (ie. things to do)

    -Structured PvP (battlegrounds, arenas) are purely for fun, and take place in cities for entertainment. Players can either watch from the stands or participate. Vanity prizes for high rankings or whatever.

    -World PvP that matters. Fighting over resources and map control that has direct influence on the game world. Controlling major towns/quest hubs, trade routes, etc.

    -Player controlled structures. Buy a plot of land, build on it. Can make a house, a shop, smithy, bar, etc. Similarly, larger structures can be made by guilds, ranging from small outposts, to full sized castles. Naturally, these can be destroyed by players as well. Hirable NPC guards for when you need to log out or go out in the world.

    -Reputation with player factions. Similar to EVE online, you would be able to allow other players to use facilities you, or your guild owns or controls.

    -Dungeons/Raids as usual.

    -Day/Night cycle that matters. NPCs and monsters that only appear during certain times of the day, sneaking being more effective in the dark, shops closing during the night. Stuff like that. Something like 2 irl hours for 1 ingame day to accommodate time zone differences and people that play during different times of the day

    -Hunger/Thirst/Fatigue. Might be a bit too “hardcore” but I feel like it could be implemented somehow.

    -A world you actually live in. Removal of character levels means no more outleveleling zones. The whole world is always relevant for exploration and adventuring. Move on when you get bored, not when the stuff you’re fighting no longer give XP.

    -More realistic inventory and carrying capacity. Carrying a lot of stuff slows you down. No more carrying 3 suits of armor, an arsenal of weapons, and a small zoo of mounts. If you’re going to hoard items, you keep them in your stash back at home or in the bank. This brings me to…

    -No Teleporting and Flight paths! Traveling and relocating requires effort. This combined with player owned structures means that there towns and outposts owned entirely by players will pop up around high resource areas and areas of interest. Don’t like the city life? You can go live alone in the wilderness. Pack mules, wagons, and caravans for when you need to move a lot of stuff.

    Crafting and Economy

    -NPCs only sell basic equipment. Almost everything can be crafted by players.

    -No mailing of equipment. This ties into world pvp because of trade routes. If you see something on the auction house that you want, you need to go physically pick it up from the location of sale, or hire someone to bring it to you. Couriers don’t actually carry the item in their inventory and they pay a collateral for accepting the deal (so they can’t steal it themselves), but someone else can kill them and take your stuff. This means each town will have its own economy for people to take advantage of.

    -No cross server shenanigans. In fact, idealy there wouldn't be separate servers at all, just one big one. If you want to be a bandit, you have to live with the reputation you get on your server. PvP and PvE community. It’s an MMORPG ffs. A living breathing virtual world, not some lobby game to queue for dungeons and battlegrounds.
    Last edited by Archaeon; 2012-10-31 at 01:38 PM.

  2. #2
    I wouldn't. And you, yourself, would drop it in a month too.

  3. #3
    Bloodsail Admiral Icebear's Avatar
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    I don't think I would put that much time into it, but sure I would give it a try.

  4. #4
    It seems okay but without leveling there doesn't seem to be a hook to keep people interested for huge amounts of time.

    The concepts behind the game...make it okay but still I'm not sure I'd like it. I'd have to see it.

    How do I still not have a graphic artist? Wtf do you guys do for a living?

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by rowaasr13 View Post
    I wouldn't. And you, yourself, would drop it in a month too.
    Mind elaborating? Why would I drop it compared to any other mmo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blueobelisk View Post
    It seems okay but without leveling there doesn't seem to be a hook to keep people interested for huge amounts of time.

    The concepts behind the game...make it okay but still I'm not sure I'd like it. I'd have to see it.
    On the contrary, I think removing leveling allows for more "endgame". As it is now, I'll give a rough figure of maybe 5% of wow content being relevant at the moment for example. Once you're at level cap, pretty much all non level cap content becomes irrelevant. On the other hand by removing character levels from the game, you can participate in any part of the game no matter how long you've been playing. There's no gating.
    Last edited by Archaeon; 2012-10-31 at 12:36 PM.

  6. #6
    Doesn't this basically already exist in the form of Darkfall Online? I didn't play it for very long since it was extremely buggy, but I remember it being somewhat similar to what you described above.

  7. #7
    Pandaren Monk GeordieMagpie's Avatar
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    Seems to RPG-ish, I like my mmo's being mmo's
    Howay the lads!

  8. #8
    Pit Lord Wries's Avatar
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    I would play the hell out of that game. I'm not really fond of the way WoW has headed what with hanging around in cities waiting for queues. Just feels like hand-holding made by the developers. Rather have a rough world-feeling, sort of a sandbox playground where the players are making the game.

    Still, I want a story and a cool atmosphere to with the game as well
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Bobsagget View Post
    Seems to RPG-ish, I like my mmo's being mmo's
    Semantics... I meant MMORPG, which is what pretty much all fantasy mmos are catagorized as. There seems to be a big lack of the RPG part though, mostly due to the systems in place to deal with casual gamers and the instant gratification crowd. Hell even the MMO part is lacking, because people don't want to have to interract with other people in their "MMORPGS". They're all pretty much, queue for small scale multiplayer content, go afk till you can join, experience content, repeat. Tell me, where's the "massively multiplayer" part in that?

    It's an awful lot like counter strike, where bgs, raids, arenas, etc. are the servers, and your major cities and quest hubs are your server lobby.

  10. #10
    Succesful MMO's are those which are the most addective. You can't make mmo for normal ppl, seriously, because they are busy with their lives. You must make your game to be as much addective, as possible. Look at the most succesful ones, make notes, find your niche, find a good lore (the hardest part) and just make everything.
    Typical mmo customer is a person which has alot of free time and no idea what to do with it and their lives, escapists, jobless, etc.

    If you wanna make a wow killer, you just need to make an mmo which will have all the WoW's endgame + all the GW'2 endgame + dota-style map. You need to connect the features and add more options. You need not 2 ways to obtain equip, but 3 or even 5. Then you will swim in pools of money. I think that Titan will be like that.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Slaughty8 View Post
    Succesful MMO's are those which are the most addective. You can't make mmo for normal ppl, seriously, because they are busy with their lives. You must make your game to be as much addective, as possible. Look at the most succesful ones, make notes, find your niche, find a good lore (the hardest part) and just make everything.
    Typical mmo customer is a person which has alot of free time and no idea what to do with it and their lives, escapists, jobless, etc.

    If you wanna make a wow killer, you just need to make an mmo which will have all the WoW's endgame + all the GW'2 endgame + dota-style map. You need to connect the features and add more options. You need not 2 ways to obtain equip, but 3 or even 5. Then you will swim in pools of money. I think that Titan will be like that.
    Well I don't know about Titan, but that's not really what this thread is about. I'm not trying to pitch an MMO idea, nor am I actually working on a game. I'm trying to generate discussion about the current direction mmorpgs seem to be going in. Obviously lore and content will have to be there in order to have a good game, but I'm more interested in the individual systems involved.

  12. #12
    Brewmaster Newbryn's Avatar
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    I would love to play an mmo like this leveling is the absolute worst imo its just boring, though the progression I would like for an mmo is something like ffx spheregrid even ffxiii system would work great as an alternate form of progression in an mmo.
    Claymore is Epic again, eat it priscilla fanboys.

  13. #13
    Your combat system would require an enormous infrastructure to work out right. You'd need servers with less than 100 latency for every player, and in an MMO that is a no-no.

    I mean, it could be done without such a system, but it'd require a SHIT TON of code to prevent being hacked. Fuck it, I'm thinking of some kind of system that would really make use of the CPU, checking the memory changes and verifying packets sent and received, everything making sure that it makes sense within the game's context. And I'm not sure how viable that would be, and I don't think it'd be the hardest thing to crack...

  14. #14
    No levels is deal breaker.
    "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by botulox View Post
    Your combat system would require an enormous infrastructure to work out right. You'd need servers with less than 100 latency for every player, and in an MMO that is a no-no.

    I mean, it could be done without such a system, but it'd require a SHIT TON of code to prevent being hacked. Fuck it, I'm thinking of some kind of system that would really make use of the CPU, checking the memory changes and verifying packets sent and received, everything making sure that it makes sense within the game's context. And I'm not sure how viable that would be, and I don't think it'd be the hardest thing to crack...
    Darkfall has FPS combat that works perfectly there isn't that much you can hack except for an aimbot and chams.

    @the OP;
    If this game had public dungeons and/or full loot I would probably play it, I think the courier stuff and economy would be pretty dull without it.
    But basically Eve Online in a fantasy setting = yes please.

    Everquest Next will be a sandbox so maybe they'll actually do a lot of what you want.

  16. #16
    I'm a great fan of gaming design, so your thread called my attention. I'll quote on parts because I think my opinion will be more clear this way. But, basically, it seems that you don't mind how boring your game would be if it were close enough to reality. But games (by definition) are supposed to be fun, so some things you posted are really weird for me.

    This really bugs me, because I can't find a logical explanation for one character being 25,000 times stronger than another one. So simply remove character levels.
    I kinda agree with the removal of levels. I agree that getting stronger for nothing sucks, but I think that you need some sort of indication of player skill in the game. I want to be check if the guy A is better or worse player than the guy B, that is what levels are supposed to mean, in my opinion.

    For example, Grom swings his axe around all day, so his Strength gradually increases.
    Sounds like grinding, can't agree with you.

    Simply put, your skills will level up with use, becoming more powerful.
    Progress should be a reward over complexity, not over time. Getting Fireball lvl 2 because you spend all day spamming Fireball lvl 1 in a target dummy is boring. Getting a Polymorph and access to a challenge that requires you to CC after you defeated a more simple challenge only using Fireball would make the player (as a player, not as an avatar) evolve.

    World PvP that matters. Fighting over resources and map control that has direct influence on the game world. Controlling major towns/quest hubs, trade routes, etc.
    It would happen the same problem that we have on GW2 currently: everybody goes to the winning side, and the competition becomes a monopoly. Also, making PvE players dependant on PvP players is a terrible concept. Unless you're creating a game without PvE.

    Player controlled structures. Buy a plot of land, build on it. Can make a house, a shop, smithy, bar, etc. Similarly, larger structures can be made by guilds, ranging from small outposts, to full sized castles. Naturally, these can be destroyed by players as well. Hirable NPC guards for when you need to log out or go out in the world.
    It looks like I'll need a second life to play your game. Hiring NPC to protect my things when I'm offline? The more "RL" I have, the more money I need to farm in game (with less time, because I have more "RL") to save my progress? I hope I got you wrong on this.

    Day/Night cycle that matters.
    Just as above, your game requires me to adapt my life routine. This is a terrible idea, seriously.

    No Teleporting and Flight paths! Traveling and relocating requires effort.
    A walking simulator...? Nice concept.
    Last edited by Hraklea; 2012-10-31 at 03:10 PM.

  17. #17
    Pit Lord philefluxx's Avatar
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    While I would definitely give it a go and maybe even like it, your audience is going to be slim. The majority of people dont want games like this anymore, that is why no one makes them. Regardless of all the bitching people like to do because things are too "easy", they will bitch and quit if things are too hard and time consuming.

    Perfect example is WoW, Wrath people bitched it was too easy but they kept playing. Cata people bitched it was too difficult and they lost many subs.

  18. #18
    High Overlord Wendyclear's Avatar
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    If someone could make an Ultima Online type game in this day and age and have it be as good as T2A, I'd play the shit out of it. Some aspects of what you're describing remind me of that game.

  19. #19
    I kinda agree with the removal of levels. I agree that getting stronger for nothing sucks, but I think that you need some sort of indication of player skill in the game. I want to be check if the guy A is better or worse player than the guy B, that is what levels are supposed to mean, in my opinion.
    I haven't really thought of it that way, but I just find leveling a really dull system that doesn't make sense to me from a logical standpoint, in a way that isn't fun. The fact that a level 1 character has absolutely no comparison to a level 90 just because of the massive gap in stats.

    Sounds like grinding, can't agree with you.
    As opposed to leveling your character and doing any kind of repeatable content? :P

    Progress should be a reward over complexity, not over time. Getting Fireball lvl 2 because you spend all day spamming Fireball lvl 1 in a target dummy is boring. Getting a Polymorph and access to a challenge that requires you to CC after you defeated a more simple challenge only using Fireball would make the player (as a player, not as an avatar) evolve.
    Yeah level 2 fireball from spamming 100 fireballs isn't what I had in mind. I mean things like unlocking combos or different evolutions of a certain strike. Of course the obvious problem with any kind of system where you level by performing an action makes you feel like you need to grind it asap, but that's true for character levels as well. On the other hand, this way you can pick and choose which abilities you like, and by playing with a specific style, you further evolve down that path. For example, a mage that casts only fire spells will slowly unlock more interesting fire spells, or something like that.

    It would happen the same problem that we have on GW2 currently: everybody goes to the winning side, and the competition becomes a monopoly. Also, making PvE players dependant on PvP players is a terrible concept. Unless you're creating a game without PvE.
    In GW2 however you can hop from server to server as far as I know. EVE online doesn't seem to have the monopoly problem though. Sure there are some really big corporations and alliances with thousands of players involved that control very large sections of space, but there's no 1 big alliance controlling everything. Some people like playing with smaller groups, others like being part of a huge team. As far as PvE players depending on PvP players are concerned, well I guess "deal with it". Don't like it don't play, know what I mean? I don't like this separation between pve and pvp.

    It looks like I'll need a second life to play your game. Hiring NPC to protect my things when I'm offline? The more "RL" I have, the more money I need to farm in game (with less time, because I have more "RL") to save my progress? I hope I got you wrong on this.
    Well I don't think it'll be something like "renting" for a specific rate over time. More like, you buy an upgrade for your house, and you get a permanent defensive upgrade. If the structures and housing are going to be persistent and destructible, there must be some way to defend it other than staying camped on top of it 24/7.

    Just as above, your game requires me to adapt my life routine. This is a terrible idea, seriously.
    Why do you have to adapt your life routine? If it was following a 24 hour day/night cycle I would understand, which is why I proposed a more rapid cycle so that you can at least experience one full cycle even just by playing a couple of hours in each session. Ok if you play 1 hour or half an hour per session sure... but I don't think mmos are for you then, right?

    A walking simulator...? Nice concept.
    Not really... I mean, would no one play Skyrim if there wasn't a fast travel system? Sure skipping around the map instantly is convenient, but is it really needed? If there are things to do in every zone, why not pick a niche that you're happy with, and enjoy it to the fullest, then move on when you feel like it? In EVE online, something like going from one side of the game to the other takes hours. Most people "live" in a specific section of the galaxy and do things in that area.

  20. #20
    Yes, I would. In a heartbeat.

    I despise leveling and gearing system ad infinitum. But I also like the logical and gradual attribute and skill progression systems of Ultima Oinline or Morrowind.

    The only thing that concerns me is the inclusion of PVP. It never benefits an MMO from a design POV other than to appeal to a vulgar market.

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