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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by brickerz View Post
    The game doesn't matter, he's stating the inherent principle with a purchase of any product. Purchasing a product gives you the ability to use that product to it's maximum benefit given you have the proper capabilities. I am not entitled to being able to juggle elaborately by purchasing juggling pins, I have to put the time and effort into mastering the item. Likewise, because I purchased WoW, I am not entitled to everything within the game without possessing the capabilities to do such. Saying that you are entitled to receive the maximum benefit of a purchase without taking into account your own personal limitations in what you can invest is unfathomable for any intelligent human being.
    I'm sorry, but who are you to decide who's entitled to what in WoW? Do you even play WoW or are you just another forum poster who likes to tell people what they can and can't do in a game you no longer play?

    Your understanding of business is pretty screwy, btw. I can just imagine the customer support calls. "I'm sorry sir, you can't use the browser on your new phone unless you can demonstrate that you're able to flash a custom ROM on to it. It's the inherent principle of the matter, you see... Oh yes, the NFC functionality. Well, you just don't sound smart enough for us to allow you to use it. I hope you understand, you just don't have the capabilities to fully utilize our product."
    Last edited by SamR; 2012-11-01 at 06:10 AM.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by SamR View Post
    I'm sorry, but who are you to decide who's entitled to what in WoW? Do you even play WoW or are you just another forum poster who likes to tell people what they can and can't do in a game you no longer play?

    Your understanding of business is pretty screwy, btw. I can just imagine the customer support calls. "I'm sorry sir, you can't use the browser on your new phone unless you can demonstrate that you're able to flash a custom ROM on to it. It's the inherent principle of the matter, you see... Oh yes, the NFC functionality. Well, you just don't sound smart enough for us to allow you to use it. I hope you understand, you just don't have the capabilities to fully utilize our product."
    This. Just imagining these people serving in any kind of business in any position that has any contact with customers is hilarious.

    "I'm sorry that the toaster electrocuted you, but really, I believe someone more skilled at operating a toaster would possess the capabilities to get more out of it than you did. If you don't have extensive toaster repair skills maybe you shouldn't expect to have an operating toaster for more than 6 months."

    "Why yes, the router is capable of port-forwarding, but you are simply incapable of making it do so. Thanks for calling! *click*"

    "I don't see the problem. You CAN find that setting, it's buried under 45 minutes of other confusing menus but you really shouldn't have bought our phone if you weren't willing to invest 45 minutes each time to change the settings. It's just the principle of the matter, paying $200 for this doesn't entitle you to use its full capabilities."

    "I designed this tablet to provide an engaging experience for those skilled at operating tablets. You'll find that all of its most useful functions are tastefully hidden under layers of obscure terms, mismatched icons, word unscrambles, and multiple prompts to type in security codes that we never gave you. We did this so that people who were more skilled and willing to put in more time could have access to exciting features that 99% of everyone won't be able to use."


    I mean, sure, Blizzard could decide that they are no longer making any raid content for anyone besides the leetest of leet, but if you want someone to continuously pay a sub, you need to provide them things to do. The fact is that organized raiding requires a consistent work schedule and moderate amounts of free time, luxuries many of us won't have access to until we retire or die. Even if you personally would snub your nose at the vast majority who aren't unemployed, students, housewives, or engaged in a career that allows them to have consistent, scheduled work hours that coincidentally align with those of 9/24 other tolerable human beings, Blizzard sure as hell is smart enough not to. I'm pretty sure no one is asking to do full heroic raid clears day 1 with absolutely no effort, and if they are, they're only doing so facetiously.

    LFR and (eventual, when nerfed) normal modes, random bgs, as well as heroic 5 mans, fill a slot of things that the average person can do with some time investment only. Heroic raids, challenge modes, high rating arena matches, etc, all fill a slot for things to aspire to, that the average player will not accomplish, and they carry unique and prestigious (well, as prestigious as video games get) rewards. If that isn't good enough for you, if you want everything to be designed only for the most hardcore players, then you should just go make your own game and play it by yourself, because that is not what WoW is, and if you think about it, really never what it was. It has always been the most casual MMO on the market, even in Vanilla.

    Purchasing World of Warcraft and paying the sub fee, as well as moderate time investment, entitles you to see the storyline (through quests) and play through most of the content on the lowest difficulty, for lower tiers of rewards. This is the basic functionality of the product. In the basketball analogy, this is essentially the basketball itself. It's what you get for paying. You expect certain things of the basketball. It's round and you can bounce it. You pay for the basketball and you are now entitled to bring it home and bounce it around on the pavement. You pay for WoW so that you can do quests and group content. If you can't do quests and group content, there is no reason to pay for the game. It's like paying for a basketball that is hexagonal and doesn't bounce. It serves you no purpose.

    You want to invest more? Go get all gold medals on all the challenge modes. Go get a Gladiator title and mount. Go clear heroic raids. Heck, clear them without the nerf, for the FoS. Train your body, play competitive basketball, etc.

    You need to get SOMETHING just for buying the game (basketball) or almost no one would pay, because the average person does not have the time or give-a-fuck to invest and become a pro, so to have a successful business model, the initial investment of just money needs to provide adequate functionality to keep you busy and meet your expectations of the amount of content a game should provide. Similarly there needs to be (and there is) additional achievements to strive for. You can't have either piece of the puzzle missing. If anyone thinks that casual content can be completely removed, they don't understand, and basically want something that caters to them. They essentially want a magic basketball that will explode if an unskilled hand touches it, and they want that to be the ONLY basketball available to everyone.

    They're assholes, to tl;dr it.

    But that's not how it works. If that's how basketballs worked, they'd be pretty poor sellers, since only pros would have any use for a basketball. You want to sell millions of basketballs? They better be functional to the average person.
    Last edited by neccowafer; 2012-11-01 at 07:07 AM.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    This is one of the underlying themes of all of this: make some stuff so difficult to get to that only a small percentage of people will ever see it. Well, challenge mode dungeons are a start on that. Expanding the concept to raids, old or new, will be another step toward that. It's a rather large to-do about not very much. Basically the second bullet point is the "Give Raiding Back to Raiders" thread stated another way.
    Well actually anyone can see the dungeons. As far as the gear goes, I'm sure everyone will see it, just not everyone will own it.

    Edit: removed a bit because I think I misunderstood the post
    Last edited by jbombard; 2012-11-01 at 07:11 AM.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by neccowafer View Post
    This. Just imagining these people serving in any kind of business in any position that has any contact with customers is hilarious.
    I'm a professor, so I suppose I am in "customer service" on a daily basis, at least in some fashion. I definitely do not have a business oriented mind, it's a waste of my skill set to worry about that. However, as a professor, all of my students and their parents pay a tuition. Does that tuition entitle them to receive an A in my class? No. The way the unwashed masses of brainless teenagers exacerbate the problem with WoW is buy insisting that since they bought the product, they should be able to do everything. This hasn't stopped at simply "we want to see the storyline" and LFR. I actually think LFR was a great idea because then all of the users who are incompetent can still see and experience the story. The cancer, however, has continued into heroics as well. Towards the end of Cataclysm, people were complaining that they went through LFR, regular, but heroic mode was too hard. It's not a problem, necessarily, with the design. It's the societal problem with increasing feelings of entitlement among young adults. When you purchase something, you only get out of it what you put in, why are you calling support because you failed to read the manual?
    Quote Originally Posted by neccowafer View Post
    But that's not how it works. If that's how basketballs worked, they'd be pretty poor sellers, since only pros would have any use for a basketball. You want to sell millions of basketballs? They better be functional to the average person.
    That is, exactly, how the basketball works. In WoW, you are capable of taking the game home, and playing it. You can do whatever you want in the game that the game will allow as long as you are capable of doing it. There's nothing holding you back other than yourself. I fail to see how that's such a difficult concept to understand.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by brickerz View Post
    I'm a professor, so I suppose I am in "customer service" on a daily basis, at least in some fashion. I definitely do not have a business oriented mind, it's a waste of my skill set to worry about that. However, as a professor, all of my students and their parents pay a tuition. Does that tuition entitle them to receive an A in my class? No. The way the unwashed masses of brainless teenagers exacerbate the problem with WoW is buy insisting that since they bought the product, they should be able to do everything. This hasn't stopped at simply "we want to see the storyline" and LFR. I actually think LFR was a great idea because then all of the users who are incompetent can still see and experience the story. The cancer, however, has continued into heroics as well. Towards the end of Cataclysm, people were complaining that they went through LFR, regular, but heroic mode was too hard. It's not a problem, necessarily, with the design. It's the societal problem with increasing feelings of entitlement among young adults. When you purchase something, you only get out of it what you put in, why are you calling support because you failed to read the manual?
    Kind of harsh for a professor...."unwashed masses of brainless teenagers"? With that kind of attitude, I hope my kids don't go to whatever classes you teach.

  6. #106
    High Overlord TecPontificates's Avatar
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    These threads always devolve into heroic mode raiders whining about LFR and casuals. Why keep making them?

    For me, the saddest evolution in WoW since '04 has nothing to do with the game itself but rather the meta-game. We had Thottbot even during closed beta, but not many people knew about it. These days, 100% of an expansion is data-mined before the expansion even comes out. Virtually every boss on both difficulties has been fraps'd and there are strategy guides to follow.

    There is virutally no exploration anymore. Several people actually exclaimed things like "wow" and "holy shit" the first time we saw Ragnaros come out of the lava. Now? The model was previewed on mmo-champ three months ahead of time with all its animations.

    Unfortunately there is no stopping that kind of thing. A good game becomes popular, and a popular game gets datamined so sites like this one can monetize the exploration experience.

    In the early days of WoW, you could be a good WoW player by being more knowledgeable about the game than other players. Now, with all of that knowledge distilled and fed to us in capsule form on sites like this, there is no knowledge game anymore. There's only skill game and social game - being skilled enough to play it hard and managing to get in with a guild at your level.

    And that's why everybody bitches about LFR, because it cheaps the skill game because there's diminished glory for being one of the few in the world to clear heroics - and let's face it, there still are very few people who clear heroic modes. The difference is nobody cares, because the unskilled just ruin LFR for the rest of us and are happy with that level of gameplay.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flabb View Post
    I agree with the damage normalisation mostly. These days it's like "110k crit? is that good? no idea" sort of feeling for me
    I've noticed the increase in numbers, but I've never really thought about it and yeah, that's way out of hand. I can crit either 100k, which seems normal, sometimes I'll crit 300-500k, and on two occasions I've crit 1 million. :/
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  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by yjmark View Post
    Kind of harsh for a professor...."unwashed masses of brainless teenagers"? With that kind of attitude, I hope my kids don't go to whatever classes you teach.
    This is more suited for off-topic discussion. I'll just say that I recently taught a calc1 class of 27. I failed 8 students, and received calls from the parents of 3 of them. In addition, one of the mothers came in to talk to me about how I went too fast for her son, and that she was paying 45,000 a year for him to attend our university and he should be given more time because he needs it. So, please excuse me if I'm jaded when I refer to young adults with a negative connotation, and if you reproduce, don't be that parent.

  9. #109
    @brickerz

    It's the societal problem with increasing feelings of entitlement among young adults. When you purchase something, you only get out of it what you put in, why are you calling support because you failed to read the manual?
    This 100%. I've noticed this as well, this sense of entitlement coupled with a demand for instant gratification. "Give it to me NOW mommy! I MUST have it!!" What people fail to realise is that the very nature of an MMO and one as vast as WoW means that you must put in time and effort in order to accomplish goals within the game. No, I don't like the idea of spending four hours in Sunken Temple either, but blowing through the storyline dungeons in 15 minutes (each) killed Dragon Soul for me, so much so that I simply didn't bother doing it.

    WoW is NOT Call of Duty or Battlefield 3. It is NOT a console game, but there seems to be this unspoken demand that it should behave like one.
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  10. #110
    High Overlord Deathloc's Avatar
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    A complete reboot? Probably not... if I knew that Cataclysm was coming and we were raiding Dragon Soul for an excessive amount of time... otherwise YES.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by brickerz View Post
    I'm a professor, so I suppose I am in "customer service" on a daily basis, at least in some fashion. I definitely do not have a business oriented mind, it's a waste of my skill set to worry about that. However, as a professor, all of my students and their parents pay a tuition. Does that tuition entitle them to receive an A in my class? No. The way the unwashed masses of brainless teenagers exacerbate the problem with WoW is buy insisting that since they bought the product, they should be able to do everything. This hasn't stopped at simply "we want to see the storyline" and LFR. I actually think LFR was a great idea because then all of the users who are incompetent can still see and experience the story. The cancer, however, has continued into heroics as well. Towards the end of Cataclysm, people were complaining that they went through LFR, regular, but heroic mode was too hard. It's not a problem, necessarily, with the design. It's the societal problem with increasing feelings of entitlement among young adults. When you purchase something, you only get out of it what you put in, why are you calling support because you failed to read the manual?

    That is, exactly, how the basketball works. In WoW, you are capable of taking the game home, and playing it. You can do whatever you want in the game that the game will allow as long as you are capable of doing it. There's nothing holding you back other than yourself. I fail to see how that's such a difficult concept to understand.
    So, what you failed to respond to at all, is why it isn't okay for WoW to have basic functionality for everyone (LFR, 5 mans) and more advanced functionality for more advanced players (Heroic raids, Challenge mode 5 mans).

  12. #112
    Brewmaster dryankem's Avatar
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    I happen to disagree with some of OP's opinions but unlike the million other QQ threads, he actually states that its lost its epic feel for him and isn't trying to convince everyone that his opinion is the only opinion (unless of course he tries to convince everyone later in the thread, admittedly didn't read much of this thread).

    The 2 things I would reboot,
    1) Lower tank damage
    2) Updated race models
    Last edited by dryankem; 2012-11-01 at 05:03 PM.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Flabb View Post
    I agree with the damage normalisation mostly. These days it's like "110k crit? is that good? no idea" sort of feeling for me
    "110 crit in Molten Core? is that good? no idea". I genuinely have this feeling. Does that mean that this number is stupid?

    No, this only speaks that I simply didn't had a single day of observing regular damage in MC. Same for your 110k example.

  14. #114
    Hell no! I have titles, achievments, mounts and other stuff I worked for and spent quite a lot of time on. Take away those things and I'd leave, in an instant. In all honesty mot people I see asking for these changes are people around 7k achievment points max, people who might have played for a long time but never actually accomplished a damn thing.

    A gated system is a horrible, horrible idea. All it does is to exclude anyone and everyone who isn't staying with the main field all the time. During BC if you were inactive for some time or started late in the expansion you might aswell have stopped again that very moment. Because you would need to do old raids to be able to close up to the main field, old raids no one was running anymore.
    It was a bad, very bad system. One that did not require effort or skill but merely being around a lot. It's pretty much like the classic battleground titles. You didn't need skill, you just needed an premade and a hell of a lot of time. On my server those premades used to dodge on another for no other reason then actually ducking it out would've been detrimental to getting the most out of an battleground and rank 14.

    http://www.darklegacycomics.com/152.html < The last panel sums up BC and to an lesser extend Classic quite well. Some of you guys really ought to take off those rose tinted glasses. Because you're the ones to blame for the current Pandaria mess.

  15. #115
    Pandaren Monk 1ns's Avatar
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    No. Definitely not. Horrible thread, you got everything wrong. I suggest you go play some F2P-P2W game, they are usually shit and you seem to like that.

  16. #116
    1. Raid tiers - no heroic bosses <- gnn it kind of depends

    2. There should be a tiered raid system (BC) You go as far as you can, not everyone may see the last tier content. No heroic bosses re-hashed. Yeah yeah I know. <- no no no, absolutely super-duper-uber NO it was HELL for my guild in TBC as we're a small guild and even if we could do Zul'Aman we passed 99.999999999% of the raids still doing Karazhan for equipping other people due to University/Work turnovers.

    And no, I do not want to start mass recruiting people that do not fit us just for the sake of raiding. Current systems allow people that have been missing to catch up if they want so that they can participate in the current tier and that's fine
    Last edited by Brazorf; 2012-11-02 at 01:23 PM.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by -Apathy- View Post
    Not in a life time, I will not part with my 7+ years of work via my account. If their is no sudden someway to upload that data to this so called ''Reboot'' then no of course not.
    You can't take that work with you when you go, son. Only when you get rid of your possessions will you be truly free.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by neccowafer View Post
    So, what you failed to respond to at all, is why it isn't okay for WoW to have basic functionality for everyone (LFR, 5 mans) and more advanced functionality for more advanced players (Heroic raids, Challenge mode 5 mans).
    Nearly everything has advanced functionality for a very small subset of people. There are few things that have no learning curve or such a low level of mastery that everyone is considered a master. The advanced functionality of setting the time on a microwave eludes many to this day. There's an old, tired adage of "You get out what you put in", this applies to life in general. I own photoshop, why is it that I can't even make the simplest of designs, while others can make mind blowing pictures with such ease? Is it photoshops fault that I don't practice or put in the effort to learn how to do it? Why is that advanced functionality only for artists and people who practice? Because that's the way "things" work. Not to be insulting to your intelligence, but how is this concept so foreign to you?

    Edit: For the sake of all of us actual scientists, please tell me that your "SCIENCE!" interest is a joke and you're not honestly pursuing a career in our field.
    Last edited by brickerz; 2012-11-02 at 01:52 PM.

  19. #119
    Herald of the Titans Geminiwolf's Avatar
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    WoW is not even done yet why make a reboot? Even if it was done with I would not want a reboot because 1. it doesn't need it 2. it will end up sucking and people will still complain about it.
    “Ever wonder why ice cubes taste so boring? It’s cuz you make ‘em outta stupid water, you bimbo! Put some fruit juice in there and freeze it into ice cubes, and put THAT in your milk.”
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  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Geminiwolf View Post
    WoW is not even done yet why make a reboot? Even if it was done with I would not want a reboot because 1. it doesn't need it 2. Even if it is awesome people will still complain about it.
    ftfy There is nothing Blizz can do to stop the complaining.

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