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  1. #1
    High Overlord tonyjs's Avatar
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    Elegon 25 man Wipefest to enrage, Need help!

    Our problem: Dps sucks, need criticism on our low dps, got our best attempts in this log. Entered last phase clean, just hit berserk.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-60v2bw81lglkc8s7/

    We pushed 5 and 5 sparks.

    Our strat:

    Range 1st add, melee stay in
    Melee second add, range on boss
    Push phase,
    quadrants on left and right, kill 5 sparks. CD's on last spark.
    repeat

  2. #2
    Your DPS is indeed quite low O_o

    A few things you could do to improve a bit:

    On 1st and 2nd spark of each phase you can have 1-2 people per pylon kill the spark (preferably melee) while the rest just stay on the boss. On the 3rd spark everyone is on the sparks again up till the 5th one. This will give some of your DPS more uptime on the boss.

    And about the last phase...
    Once the floor is back up EVERYONE just start nuking the boss and run to the middle and stack as a group behind the boss. One tank tanks the boss and the other brings the adds into the raid which you then CLEAVE down while still cleaving the boss, obviously. After that it's just AoE heal and burn the boss. Dont reset your stacks as its pretty much just a waste of time at this point. Just burn it up and start rotating raid CDs once people start hitting 10+ stacks.

    We were having some trouble with the Enrage as well, but ended up killing it pretty fast once we changed our strategy for the burn-phase and the orbs (we only killed 5+4 Orbs).
    Last edited by Drunkenfinn; 2012-10-29 at 07:34 AM.

  3. #3
    High Overlord tonyjs's Avatar
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    Okay, the dps on the boss for the first 2 sparks sounds good. When you killed orbs, do you mean stacks on the boss? We have been putting 5 stacks on the boss per orb phase.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Flawlesser View Post
    Okay, the dps on the boss for the first 2 sparks sounds good. When you killed orbs, do you mean stacks on the boss? We have been putting 5 stacks on the boss per orb phase.
    5 stacks means 4 sparks. The boss gets a stack each time he summons the sparks so you get a stack from the set you fail to kill as well :P

    So essentially we were just doing 6+5 stacks or 5+4 sparks. Just pop personal CDs on the 5th spark in the first spark phase and it should be ok.
    That being said... if I remember correctly we actually only had 10 stacks on the kill as we failed to kill the 5 set of sparks on the first phase. Our DPS was significantly higher than yours, though :P

  5. #5
    Curious how its a wipefest to enrage when only one try in your logs is long enough to actually reach enrage? Dps seems low overall, here's yesterday's kill by Incinerate: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/5...?s=7128&e=7684

  6. #6
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    As others have already said, you need to push quite a lot more dps, but what I do not understand, is how you manage to kill 5 sparks twice and have such a low overall dps.

    A few things: Do you switch to boss for sparks you cannot kill? Do your dpsers switch to elegion between spark waves?
    Another thing is active time, I see your warrior having only 89% active time, which means he is not doing anything of value for 10% of the time.

    Here is my guilds latest kill for comparison (we went for 4 and 3 sparks): http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...=12062&e=12580

    One more thing: how many protectors do you kill between the spark phases? A lot of time can be saved by killing a protector during the first draw power.
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  7. #7
    The Patient Navoan's Avatar
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    Taking more orbs does mean 10% more dmg, but killing them orbs takes time, that is time you could be using in p3 burning him down which is something you have to remember. Have you considered taking 5 orbs (6 stacks) then 4 orbs (5 stacks) or even 4-4, meaning 10 stacks overall? You could loose 10% overall damage, but the time it takes for the boss to release the 5th wave of adds, them to reach the side, boss spawns another wave which also have to travel is quite substantial (even though they travel fast at that point). It should be something to consider if you're constantly hitting enrage. Remember that even if you're getting 20% more dmg in the last phase (on top of already having 100% more dmg) it means nothing if you don't actually HAVE the time in p3 to use that extra dmg.

    So you can have 120% more damage, but also easily loose 30secs+ on the boss, or you can have 100% (or 110%) and have much more uptime in p3.

    Are you also ensuring to call out for the DPS to stop DPSing orbs (i.e. when your 6th wave spawns), because at that point you know you're letting orbs go all DPS should be purely focused on DPSing the boss. As another point to the above, if you take less orbs they travel slower, so on the set that you are allowing to pass you have more uptime on the boss (less spawns means orbs are slower which means you have more time before phase change). All of these things are something you need to take into account. If DPS are holding back some personal CDs to ensure the 5th orbs go down they could instead be used to burn a few % off the boss instead, it all adds up.


    Sadly adding to that that... damn your DPS is low. That is ofc comparing to people who kill the boss (which means they had more uptime in p3 with at least 100% dmg taken buff, so take that into account). For comparrison I believe our lowest DPS for normal Elegon 10man kill was 111k.

  8. #8
    Your dps is very low, I took a quick look at your pallydps since I'm a ret my selfe. He did 74K dps, I did 117K dps in our kill yesterday (on 10 man so not completely comparable), I have few ilvls higher then him but not 43K dps higher in ilvl, a some thinks that should help him improve:
    His uptime on Inquisition is very low, 76%, should be 96%+, get an addon that helps tracking Inquisition to increase uptime. (When Inq is up his damage is increased by 30% and his crit by 10%).
    Long Arm of the Law is most likely better on this fight then Speed of Light, will give you runnspeedbost every time you run to a big add, back to the boss, back to boss after resetting stacks and for the orbs or what they are called runnspeed buff everytime you runs back to the boss after killing one.
    Glyph of Double Jeopardy is a dpsincrease on this fight (20% higher judgment damage when you change targets) so every time he goes from the boss to a big add, from the big add to the boss, from boss to orbs or from orbs to boss his judgment will do 20% damage.
    Change Glyph of Mass Exorcism or Glyph of Avenging Wrath to Glyph of Templar's Verdict, not an dpsincrease but will reduce damage taken a lot.
    Use a focus target macro for judgment to keep the dots up on the boss while dpsing other things.
    He is using Sanctified Wrath, thats fine, but if he is using that one instead of Holy Avenger he need to gem for a lot more haste, I'm looking at a top ranked pally right now who uses the same talent. Your pally manage to use 21 hammer of wrath while the top ranked, who gems for haste, manage to use 36.
    Change wrist enchant to the one with strength.
    Get the weapon The Gleaming Ravager from Scarlet Halls
    Get the Darkmoon trinket
    Try to get the helm from headless horseman
    The pvp-shouldes got shitloads of haste on them, so might be better then the once he got (not completely sure about this one)
    Change JC only gem from boots to legs, that way he will get the socketbouns on both parts and he will get more haste.
    Last edited by Ater; 2012-10-29 at 08:53 AM.

  9. #9
    Only one of your players barely pulls his wheight. You dont just have low dps, you have extremely low dps. Considering you have 10 debuffs up on the boss, on normal you should not hit enrage. Tell your dps to step up their game.

  10. #10
    High Overlord tonyjs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ater View Post
    Your dps is very low, I took a quick look at your pallydps since I'm a ret my selfe. He did 74K dps, I did 117K dps in our kill yesterday (on 10 man so not completely comparable), I have few ilvls higher then him but not 43K dps higher in ilvl, a some thinks that should help him improve:
    His uptime on Inquisition is very low, 76%, should be 96%+, get an addon that helps tracking Inquisition to increase uptime. (When Inq is up his damage is increased by 30% and his crit by 10%).
    Long Arm of the Law is most likely better on this fight then Speed of Light, will give you runnspeedbost every time you run to a big add, back to the boss, back to boss after resetting stacks and for the orbs or what they are called runnspeed buff everytime you runs back to the boss after killing one.
    Glyph of Double Jeopardy is a dpsincrease on this fight (20% higher judgment damage when you change targets) so every time he goes from the boss to a big add, from the big add to the boss, from boss to orbs or from orbs to boss his judgment will do 20% damage.
    Change Glyph of Mass Exorcism or Glyph of Avenging Wrath to Glyph of Templar's Verdict, not an dpsincrease but will reduce damage taken a lot.
    Use a focus target macro for judgment to keep the dots up on the boss while dpsing other things.
    He is using Sanctified Wrath, thats fine, but if he is using that one instead of Holy Avenger he need to gem for a lot more haste, I'm looking at a top ranked pally right now who uses the same talent. Your pally manage to use 21 hammer of wrath while the top ranked, who gems for haste, manage to use 36.
    Change wrist enchant to the one with strength.
    Get the weapon The Gleaming Ravager from Scarlet Halls
    Get the Darkmoon trinket
    Try to get the helm from headless horseman
    The pvp-shouldes got shitloads of haste on them, so might be better then the once he got (not completely sure about this one)
    Change JC only gem from boots to legs, that way he will get the socketbouns on both parts and he will get more haste.
    Thanks for this, anyone else have ideas for the other classes?

  11. #11
    The Patient Navoan's Avatar
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    Honestly, the best idea (without meaning to sound like a dick) is to A: Tell them they're doing crap, B: Refer them to this post, C: Tell them they are the only problem holding the guild/raid back, D: Tell each of them to google -insert class- -insert spec- elegon 25. At the very least they will likely find a youtube video of their class (shows them what to DPS, how to move etc (granted people who fraps aren't always perfect, but hell anything will help your guys atm). At best they will find someone else who's had problems and has posted on MMO-C themselves to ask the community for help.

    You can't personally improve 15+ people. If you're having to babysit them that much are you honestly sure it's not worth finding replacements? I mean no disrespect when saying that even if you take in a completely fresh HC dungeon geared guy with a few epics they could comfortably out DPS some of your guys. My point is that they simply aren't going to get better if they don't try, and by the looks of things they really aren't trying. There are many simple things people can improve if they simply google their class and spec, especially coupled with a boss name for tips and tricks etc.

    You can't do the work for everyone. Consider using some 'tactics' of your own to ensure they start fixing things. What is your loot distribution like? DKP, council, need/greed? Honestly the best way to get people to up their game is to possibly go through the logs, average peoples' DPS from a few 'decent' attempts and say to them for the next raid if the bottom 15 or so DPS don't improve they don't get loot (or -DKP or something). Say the top 5 have prio on everything (you do not reward low DPS people with gear to bring them up to the others, you gear up the best so they get better and can carry the rest easier, you'll also not replace your best DPS unless they leave, so best gearing them up, keeping them happy, and replacing the ones at the bottom who couldn't care less).

    Them caring about their performance >>> you doing your very best to help them.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flawlesser View Post
    Thanks for this, anyone else have ideas for the other classes?
    I am going by your longest try (number 13)
    Mages: Your mages have bellow 50% uptime on their Invoker's Energy, which needs to be improved.
    Also the uptime of Nether tempest could be improved for both mages.

    And pretty much everyone needs to get their activity time up, many of your raiders just do nothing too often.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JfmC View Post
    someone who disagrees with me is simply wrong.

  13. #13
    High Overlord tonyjs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoranon View Post
    I am going by your longest try (number 13)
    Mages: Your mages have bellow 50% uptime on their Invoker's Energy, which needs to be improved.
    Also the uptime of Nether tempest could be improved for both mages.

    And pretty much everyone needs to get their activity time up, many of your raiders just do nothing too often.
    Thank you.

  14. #14
    Your warlocks are both affliction. Make them go destruction. The fight is all about killing the sparks and less about meters and boss dps.

  15. #15
    Have them look at other world of logs and raidbot comparisons with other players that rank top 200. See their damage allocation compared to your guildies. Each and every person should be responsible for their own research. It is going to be very difficult journey for you if you are the only one going to forums asking for help for 15 other people.


    http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/play...an_Vaults/dps/

    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/



    Quote Originally Posted by Dooby View Post
    Your warlocks are both affliction. Make them go destruction. The fight is all about killing the sparks and less about meters and boss dps.
    Affy actually does work on the sparks, if you seed of corruption the boss while he spawns the 6 adds. You can hit all the adds w/ seed + corruption which makes the locks damage on sparks pretty insane.

  16. #16
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    I dont think there is much to add.. Do moar deeps! Lose a healer imo.

  17. #17
    Brewmaster Banzhe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flawlesser View Post
    Our problem: Dps sucks, need criticism on our low dps, got our best attempts in this log. Entered last phase clean, just hit berserk.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-60v2bw81lglkc8s7/

    We pushed 5 and 5 sparks.

    Our strat:

    Range 1st add, melee stay in
    Melee second add, range on boss
    Push phase,
    quadrants on left and right, kill 5 sparks. CD's on last spark.
    repeat
    Looking at logs after:-)

    Phase 1 :
    Tank the Protector under Elegon so all dps can be on it, make sure your melee isn't moving out to reset their stacks on the first protectors discharge.., but simply use a 20%+ defensive cd (And any self-heal, health stone if they're not at 100% hp)

    When the second protector spawns have your melee follow it out so they by default are resetting stacks going into phase 2, before the discharge comes there should be enough dots on second protector to kill it while players move to designated orb positions and continue nuking Elegon while waiting for orb spawn.

    Phase 2 :
    Continue with 5 + 5, but just like in phase 1, melee shouldn't move out to reset stacks until orb 3 or 4, but using defensive cd's to mitigate the small blast from orbs dying, and using self-healing, health stones etc to assist the healers)

    Phase 3 :
    While still being on the floor before it vanishes, use the 3 seconds to nuke the middle pylons, once they are downed (or have dots to finish it), move to the two upper pylons and finally the two down near the console.
    Seeing as the pylons are linked from one side to the other, you need this order so one group isn't being delayed causing to many adds to spawn in this phase.

    Phase 1 again :
    Tank the adds from phase 3 under Elegon while using stun rotations (Locks with SF, prot warr with SW is usually enough, otherwise a mage with FN can also do) and a raid-wide cd (demo-banner, AM etc), rinse and repeat the first phase 1, and aim to push him by the time the 3rd protector is spawning.
    (The main brunt of your dmg should be on elegon while ae'ing the adds down)

    You should see a dramatic increase in your raids overall damage using the above (If players use defensive cd's etc properly), if you don't it is simply because people don't understand the mechanics of the fights.., and as such you should sit down with them and explain what is going on.., or spank them to read up:-)


    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=2351&e=2922
    ^added our logs from our kill for comparison.

    Looked at logs now, and as others have pointed out.., drop a healer so your using 5, going by the above everyone should be doing considerably more damage overall.
    Last edited by Banzhe; 2012-10-29 at 10:24 AM.

  18. #18
    Your feral dps is extremely bad. Tell him to take the Heart of the Wild talent and spam wrath in the beginning of the fight and in the very end. I Have NO idea why rake did so much dmg while rip did so little. Feral druids are the strongest single target spec (or one of the best) atm and he should NOT be doing that bad.

  19. #19
    Brewmaster Banzhe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karlzone View Post
    Your feral dps is extremely bad. Tell him to take the Heart of the Wild talent and spam wrath in the beginning of the fight and in the very end. I Have NO idea why rake did so much dmg while rip did so little. Feral druids are the strongest single target spec (or one of the best) atm and he should NOT be doing that bad.
    Partly due to reforge, but also using sub-par enchant on weap, missing belt buckle etc etc.., as for using wrath in the opening, considering it's a 6min cd your unlikely to find any feral in the world being able to use this twice on Elegon, and as such it shouldn't be wasted on phase 1 where he's taking the least amount of dmg.
    It's by far better to save it for the final phase 3 where your have 100% extra dmg done, full bleeds up and lust / tw rolling, all in all there's more to hitting the enrage timer then 1 person in a 25man raids:-)

    (Can even use wrath spam after the 5th orb in the second phase 2 as the timer lines up perfectly with 20secs of nuke on Elegon, and using the rest on pylons in the middle and far away meaning less downtime moving about)
    Last edited by Banzhe; 2012-10-29 at 10:37 AM.

  20. #20
    Both your hunters are reforging extremely strangely. One's going into Haste which is unviable this tier, because we don't have enough secondary stats to sacrifice to reliably hit a haste plateau. Crit is infinitely better. The other is going for Mastery, which isn't terrible but it's not as nice as crit for sustained damage.

    Didn't look completely in depth at their CD usage, but their DPS should be a decent chunk higher than that, consideing you're doing 2x 5. Over 100k at the bare minimum.

    From previous posts it just looks like all your dps are pretty terrible :/

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