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  1. #181
    I am Murloc! rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenexis View Post
    Of course not, but when you're basing yourself on real facts, it's not the case.
    As others have pointed out what you posted isn't exactly factual. You may list facts about abilities but you classify, compare, and categorize them in a subjective manner to attempt your point. You aren't stating the facts, but stating the facts after you've slapped on conditionals to make your intended point more favorable.

    I'm not using vague examples as anyone who has followed WoW for a couple of years would know of Onyxia and the amounts of proof that people claimed as fact when it was never a fact.

    And what problem is that? Your post was in response to someone claiming that Warlocks have no more offensive, defensive, and CC cool downs then any other class. How is that a problem? 4 isn't always less then 5. 4 nuclear bombs are greater then 5 ak-47s. I'm not making a claim on anything but using it as a metaphor. Numerical comparisons and arguments of "We have less then them or more then them" don't indicate problems.

    If your information was factual then you wouldn't be pretty sure it turned out to be real but that it is real.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2012-11-03 at 08:10 PM.
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  2. #182
    Pit Lord Azgraal's Avatar
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    If a player, warlock or not, can bring you below 20% you're doing something wrong. Shadowflame can only be used under 20%, i think you might need to revalue how you plain your class, if you can't a warlock stop killing you, with ANY class.

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by Gangresnake View Post
    What exactly is vague in his argument and what exactly is clear withing this situation ?
    The argument he's using could be applied to any subject which includes a debate, regardless of what's being debated and how it's being debated.

    In this situation, what's clear is that people are crying out about Chaos Bolt, which they say can be nailed down easily due to the numerous amount of CC abilities that warlocks have. The table I'm using is for you to easily realize the truth. It's not going to tell you X is better than Y. It's going to show you all the abilities who's worth you already know.
    I think the problem is that you didn't understand the point of what I posted. It's not made to say that warlocks have less CC abilities and are therefore at a disadvantage, it's made for you to look at the abilities and realize that the whole package is inferior to other casters. It's made to show you that nothing really compensates for anything else in the warlock's toolkit.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-03 at 08:53 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    As others have pointed out what you posted isn't exactly factual. You may list facts about abilities but you classify, compare, and categorize them in a subjective manner to attempt your point. You aren't stating the facts, but stating the facts after you've slapped on conditionals to make your intended point more favorable.

    I'm not using vague examples as anyone who has followed WoW for a couple of years would know of Onyxia and the amounts of proof that people claimed as fact when it was never a fact.

    And what problem is that? Your post was in response to someone claiming that Warlocks have no more offensive, defensive, and CC cool downs then any other class. How is that a problem? 4 isn't always less then 5. 4 nuclear bombs are greater then 5 ak-47s. I'm not making a claim on anything but using it as a metaphor. Numerical comparisons and arguments of "We have less then them or more then them" don't indicate problems.

    If your information was factual then you wouldn't be pretty sure it turned out to be real but that it is real.
    Thing is I'm not giving my opinion, I am merely listing the amount of abilities available. I took this post out of another thread to prove a point. We proceeded with comparing abilities later on, hence why I said that only my analysis is not enough since it might be biased. This post doesn't tell you: "Warlocks have less amounts of CC/survivability/whatever, therefore they are underpowered". It tells you: "this is what every caster has, and here are some variables to take into account; if you know enough about the game then you should be able to easily to deduce every caster's place since the information is consolidated and available".
    Melee vs caster balance in WoD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9F0Ehgx_Q8

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenexis View Post
    The argument he's using could be applied to any subject which includes a debate, regardless of what's being debated and how it's being debated.

    In this situation, what's clear is that people are crying out about Chaos Bolt, which they say can be nailed down easily due to the numerous amount of CC abilities that warlocks have. The table I'm using is for you to easily realize the truth. It's not going to tell you X is better than Y. It's going to show you all the abilities who's worth you already know.
    I think the problem is that you didn't understand the point of what I posted. It's not made to say that warlocks have less CC abilities and are therefore at a disadvantage, it's made for you to look at the abilities and realize that the whole package is inferior to other casters. It's made to show you that nothing really compensates for anything else in the warlock's toolkit.
    About your graph/table :
    It's a nice looking list of what exist in world of warcraft, but in an awful way that it attempt to compare talent/untalented, instand/casted and baseline/spec based
    Then at the end, there's a total number of cd/CC etc

    The point of a graph is to make something more clear, to demonstrate something. And when I look at your graph I not only learn nothing, but am confused by the nonsensical comparaison made within.
    I respect the time you put into that thing, but this isnt exploitable or useful at all.

    About the "vague" arguments.
    You implied that the fact destrolock issue was massively discussed and that would somehow make the point legit
    Someone answered back that it was the same for Onyxia's breath : That massively discussing or believing something doesnt make it true. Both of theses opinions are vague statement and that was his entire point.

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Gangresnake View Post
    About your graph/table :
    It's a nice looking list of what exist in world of warcraft, but in an awful way that it attempt to compare talent/untalented, instand/casted and baseline/spec based
    Then at the end, there's a total number of cd/CC etc

    The point of a graph is to make something more clear, to demonstrate something. And when I look at your graph I not only learn nothing, but am confused by the nonsensical comparaison made within.
    I respect the time you put into that thing, but this isnt exploitable or useful at all.

    About the "vague" arguments.
    You implied that the fact destrolock issue was massively discussed and that would somehow make the point legit
    Someone answered back that it was the same for Onyxia's breath : That massively discussing or believing something doesnt make it true. Both of theses opinions are vague statement and that was his entire point.
    Except we have facts that talk about class representation. Warlocks used to be one of the most represented classes in Ctaclysm arena, now they're the 3rd least represented. I doubt that happened through a total coincidence.
    Melee vs caster balance in WoD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9F0Ehgx_Q8

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenexis View Post
    Except we have facts that talk about class representation. Warlocks used to be one of the most represented classes in Ctaclysm arena, now they're the 3rd least represented. I doubt that happened through a total coincidence.
    Who ever said this was a coincidence ?
    How does that argument exactly connect to what we're saying here ?

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by Gangresnake View Post
    Who ever said this was a coincidence ?
    How does that argument exactly connect to what we're saying here ?
    Well, that's what differs it from the Onyxia example. The Deep Breath dilemma was thought to be a fact but was actually opinions, this is not the case with what we're discussing here since we have representation numbers to back up our claims. These numbers themselves reflect upon a certain problem, and cannot be considered a "coincidence".
    Melee vs caster balance in WoD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9F0Ehgx_Q8

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenexis View Post
    Well, that's what differs it from the Onyxia example. The Deep Breath dilemma was thought to be a fact but was actually opinions, this is not the case with what we're discussing here since we have representation numbers to back up our claims. These numbers themselves reflect upon a certain problem, and cannot be considered a "coincidence".
    To go back on topic and make it more clear
    -I think warlock right now is weak, and destro is the weakest of all his spec
    -I dont think your graph is a good representation of classes mechanics, I dont think any graph can

  9. #189
    I am Murloc! rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenexis View Post
    Thing is I'm not giving my opinion, I am merely listing the amount of abilities available. I took this post out of another thread to prove a point. We proceeded with comparing abilities later on, hence why I said that only my analysis is not enough since it might be biased. This post doesn't tell you: "Warlocks have less amounts of CC/survivability/whatever, therefore they are underpowered". It tells you: "this is what every caster has, and here are some variables to take into account; if you know enough about the game then you should be able to easily to deduce every caster's place since the information is consolidated and available".
    If you are not giving your opinion then how do you say your analysis might be biased? For something to be biased it has to be tainted by opinion and not just the facts of the issue.

    Again what problem are you talking about? You posting that Chart wasn't in response to someone stating a problem. It was in response to someone stating "Warlocks have no more cc and defenses than any other class." (http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...6#post18975776). We get what you are saying doesn't state the are underpowered because no one ever stated that your graph did that.

    Except it isn't consolidated and available because you are only including 3v3 and only those that you and others have deemed worthy of being compared. Why not do one of every ability out there? You can't make a comparison while excluding things because of your opinion (or others) of those things. In case you get confused I am referencing the following line of your "facts": "Not only are these abilities not listed, but they are also removed from any variable and CD counting average since they will not be chosen in the first place.""

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-03 at 08:28 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenexis View Post
    Except we have facts that talk about class representation. Warlocks used to be one of the most represented classes in Ctaclysm arena, now they're the 3rd least represented. I doubt that happened through a total coincidence.
    It may be a fact that Cataclysm Arena's had a higher percentage of Warlock's when compared to MoP Arena's but you can't draw any conclusions from that simple statistic.

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/pvp/ is the Blizzard tracked statistics. Destro is played by 46% of PvP warlocks. Two of the top 15 Rated battleground classes are warlocks. There is more then one top rated team for that battle group has a warlock on it. All you can draw from your figure is that less people are playing Warlocks now then before.

    You don't touch on any of the for the moment or unbalanced specs and classes that existed. For the bug with stampede that was only recently fixed would have thrown representation in favor of hunters because they have a "for the moment" advantage and people would use that to better themselves.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-03 at 08:32 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenexis View Post
    Well, that's what differs it from the Onyxia example. The Deep Breath dilemma was thought to be a fact but was actually opinions, this is not the case with what we're discussing here since we have representation numbers to back up our claims. These numbers themselves reflect upon a certain problem, and cannot be considered a "coincidence".
    I don't think you understand Onyxia Deep Breathes more example. People had combat logs, screenshots, and everything else that they claimed undeniable proved she was doing it more. But she wasn't and people were just drawing the conclusions that they wanted to see from information. Just as you are using Warlock representation numbers to mean that there is a problem with Warlocks. But the numbers don't show why Warlocks are represented less just that they are.

    Perhaps the class that have a lot of representation have problems and warlocks are great. And once those classes with bugged abilities and over tuned abilities get fixed the representation will even out. You can't base problems with a class just on the fact that less warlocks are doing Arena then in Cataclysm. Perhaps the problem was really with Cataclysm warlock being over represented?

    Representation numbers only show one thing. For the Moment classes, specs, and teams.
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  10. #190
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenexis View Post
    No I was talking about the psychological aspect. When you're feared you go on screaming that you're doing nothing but running around mindlessly. When sheeped you tell yourself: Well I'm where I got to and can't do anything, but at least I'm regenerating health! I'm purely stating the effect it has on people's minds. I agree that polymorph's health regen barely has any effect in comps, but it's about what people "feel", if you know what I mean.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-03 at 02:02 PM ----------

    Hence why Fear is perceived more badly.
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  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenexis View Post


    ---------- Post added 2012-11-03 at 07:19 PM ----------

    COMPARISON OF CC AND SURVIVABILITY BETWEEN ALL CASTER CLASSES
    Demonic portal in blade's edge/dalaran please. Broken defensive abilities are broken.

  12. #192
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Phoenexis I actually like your table generally, but I have to correct some of the priest stuff specifically.

    While Psyfiend's terror effect DRs at 8/4/2 like other CC's, Psyfiend only lasts 10 seconds, and it takes 1.5 seconds (2 seconds as of 5.1) to cast his fear. It also only has a 20 yard range and will almost invariably fear people out of its own range, even assuming it doesnt though, 1.5 seconds cast + 8 seconds fear = 9.5 seconds, followed by another 1.5 second cast (it doesn't pre-cast like a lock would) = it will only ever fear someone for 8 seconds at best. It can land multiple fears on the same person if they trinket the first and then stand around in range of it until the next cast completes - but it will despawn before the second fear in a chain, let alone a possible third fear. (I should also mention that it can only have one target feared at a time, so if it casts on a second target, the first targets fear breaks)

    Dominate Mind is an 8 second Mind Control (and is mutually exclusive with Psyfiend of course) with a 30 seconds cooldown - meaning you can never 8/4/2 someone with it because after the first 8 second MC it goes on cooldown for the next 30 seconds.

    Psychic Horror is a 3 second horror and an 8 second disarm, but they overlap - they don't follow consecutively. Meaning that it horrors for 3 seconds, followed by 5 seconds of disarm - or if you have a weapon chain (like everyone) it horrors for 3 seconds followed by a 1 second disarm. It's also now dependent on shadow orbs to cast, meaning we're exchanging like a minutes worth of burst build-up (Devouring Plague) and survivability (DP regeneration) for that disarm - I realize that doesn't really factor into your longest CC chain bit properly but - it's kind of a massive caveat - to put it in perspective, I have yet to use Psychic Horror in competitive pvp since MoP went live.

    All told, the longest CC chain a spriest could cast would be Psy Scream (8 seconds), Silence (5 seconds, this CC chain would only effect casters), Psychic Horror (3 seconds, I'd have to Really need this CC chain to land if I were willing to give up a DP for 3 seconds), and then either Dominate Mind or Psyfiend (same duration CC either way, 8 seconds). So 8+5+3+8 = 24 seconds, it would only last that long versus casters (19 seconds versus melee), would cost me my burst cooldowns and survivability (DP) and in the case of Dominate Mind, I would be also be CC'd for 8 seconds of it while channelling.

    Moving on to gap openers / mobility, of the 5 you claimed for priests, 3 of them are mutually exclusive (we can have either Body and Soul, or Angelic Feather, or Phantasm - but never can we have 2 or 3 of them) - meaning that those 5 gap openers is actually 3, furthermore you counted Inner Will which I guarentee you will never see any spriest use in competitive pvp - it's a huge DPS loss (10% spellpower) and a big survivability loss. You also listed Void Tendrils which - while it is a gap opener - is mutually exclusive with psyfiend and dominate mind and unlike other roots, dies in a single white hit, takes full damage from aoe (not the 90% reduction of other similar things) and is targetable by macros (so if you macro say, Crusader strike to /targetexact Void Tendrils, you will instantly break yourself out before you probably even realize your in them). I realize the goal isn't to be qualitative also - but Mind Flay is a 50% snare that is also a 3 second Root effect on the priest - so it doesn't actually open gaps it closes them (they move at half speed, we dont move). So in effect, spriests only have 2 gap openers - Phantasm and Dispersion - both of which dispel roots/snares and have significant cooldowns and other highly important uses which greatly penalizes us for using them to just break roots/snares. In comparison to teleports and blinks and knockbacks and real roots, having 2 snare breaks on mid/long cooldowns that cost us our survivability cooldowns is Far and Away the worst mobility kit of any caster (and that's our great weakness and we're fine with that, but don't try to tell me warlocks are worse off).

    In your short defensive cooldowns category, spriests are obviously relatively strong (necessary because we have the least mobility and the least CC) - but I still need to make some caveats. Halo can heal significantly - but it only does so at its 25 yard apex, the spriest is always at the very center of the Halo. Halo heals the spriest for 10,000 health at the cost of 1/6th our mana bar (~50k mana) and has a 40 second cooldown (you said 45 seconds) - again, you aren't trying to compare qualitatively, but my warlocks soul leech effects heal for a lot more in a 40 second period than my halo heals my priest (it can be used to heal others, but effectively it does nothing to the priest - and may I just mention that it also breaks every CC effect in a 60 yard diameter when used as an emergency heal on a teammate - and given the 3 second travel time to apex means I need to telegraph that heal well before any burst has occurred): I don't think it deserves to be in this category. Furthermore, the note at the bottom ("at the cost of 2 possible utility spells") - what does that mean? You have listed Phantasm, From Darkness, Spectral Guise, Halo and Cascade (but skipped Divine Star?) - those come from 4 of our 6 talent choices at the cost of 8 utility spells (and some of the ones you listed are, again, mutually exclusive - I understand the need to list them but to imply that we have 11 short cooldown defensive spells when its impossible to have all 11 of them simultaneously is deceptive, and even more deceptive when most of these talent choices across categories are also mutually exclusive - either we have psyfiend for CC or we have void tendrils as gap closer but never both - either we have spectral guise or we have desperate prayer but never both, etc.

    I'm not sure how to use Power Infusion as a defensive ability beyond popping it before spamming flash heals? That's kind of a stretch, flash heals are 1.3 second casts in my pvp gear, they would GCD cap and even the modest benefit of power infusion for this purpose would then be wasted on them. All in all, while I like the attempt to quantitatively reveal the strengths and weaknesses of the classes in this way, I have 2 major problems with it.

    (1) As I've shown for the priest examples, the scores don't add up correctly because many of these things cannot be taken at the same time, or do not work the way you think they do to the category in which you have confined them. In some cases the information is simply incorrect (ie. the priests CC chain duration is way off), in some cases the summed score is wildly inaccurate (ie. priests have 2 gap openers, not 5), and in some cases the you are counting things which are mutually exclusive to reach the sum (ie. we cannot have both halo and cascade and divine star as short defensive cooldowns).

    (2) The more important critique is that all this table has really proven is how inadequately a quantitative analysis summarizes the strengths and weaknesses of each class. For example, when tallying the active defensive cooldowns of mages you count Ice Block as a single defensive cooldown (a score of 1 of their 6 defensive cooldowns) which puts it on equal defensive capability as Power Infusion (which has almost no defensive application whatsoever) - nobody believes Ice Block and Power Infusion are of equal defensive application - but that's what your analysis is suggesting. Alternately, you didn't list Blink as a defensive cooldown, but Blink is a 15 second ability that dispels stuns, roots, snares and teleports the mage 25 yards away from the melee attempting to kill them - of all the priest "active defensive cooldowns" you listed, I would gladly trade any of them except Dispersion for Blink (I'm only slightly hesitant to trade all of them for Blink) - but Blink didn't even make your list.

    You did file Blink as a gap opener - which it also is obviously - but again, your assigning Blink a value of 1 Gap Opener, and giving it equal weight with Inner Will: a spell which doesn't even make us faster than melee base run speed - how does that even open a gap (it doesn't stack with boot enchants btw, it just makes your run speed 110%). Or perhaps that's an unfair example, so let me use Dispersion - which you filed as both a gap opener, and an active defensive cooldown (but didn't do the same for blink) - dispersion has a 2 minute cooldown and doesn't actually open a gap, it breaks roots and snares, but then i'm still just moving at 108% speed, still slower than melee - who I can't snare - but it gets assigned a value of 1 Gap Opener, the same as Blink - yet I can blink 8 times in the span of one Dispersion - does that means Blink is worth 8 times more Gap Openers than Dispersion? Yes, at the very least - because Dispersion probably doesn't even really count as a gap opener since no gap is actually opened (it's an active defensive cooldown, yes, but a gap opener? Probably not). Similarly, if we were to file Blink as an active defensive cooldown is it worth 8 times more than Dispersion just because I can use it 8 times more often? Here it's probably not, while fighting melee it might honestly be worth 8 times more than dispersion to be able to repeatedly blink away and out of all their stuns, against an enemy caster dispersion is far more useful.

    The point is you can't just stick Blink in the active defense category and call it a day - it means the whole premise of a quantitative comparison of abilities is meaningless without a qualitative dimension - in fact, any attempt to quantify abilities (even with a qualitative dimension) is probably useless. The only way to meaningfully compare class ability kits is qualitatively alone (with no quantitative dimension).

    Good effort, but I think we've only disproven the usefulness of quantitative analysis here (and I didn't know it was as inadequate as it was until you tried it, so I learned something here
    Last edited by Yvaelle; 2012-11-04 at 02:19 AM.
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  13. #193
    Titan Adam Jensen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by almaderp View Post
    you had 17k health, he hit you with an execute, what the hell did you expect
    Indeed. Who cares that Shadow Burn hit for 220,000 hit points? He would have been killed by a shadow bolt normal hit probably. 17k = dead unless you're lucky with CD.

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  14. #194
    The Unstoppable Force N-aix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by orissa View Post
    Indeed. Who cares that Shadow Burn hit for 220,000 hit points? He would have been killed by a shadow bolt normal hit probably. 17k = dead unless you're lucky with CD.
    I am still... amused people are complaining about an execute =/..

    Arg my head...

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Reyzzz View Post
    Dafuq? last time I faced destro in arena I took 280k in 2 globals with 59% resi (50k conflag +172k chaos bolt + 50k conflag)
    Eating a full 5 second stun or something?? (Not sure how you get "2 globals"...did you forget to add in the additional 3 seconds of Chaos Bolt cast time??)

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  16. #196
    Brewmaster Shon237's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qly View Post
    Instead of l2p, roll a lock, then go destro and then come back to complain about bm hunters instead l2p
    Thank you!! Bias lock here not gonna lie but if you are BM losing to destro lock that's poor play. I really don't believe the story the OP is giving. I mean if this person is saying that he/she got hit 140K then 120K and again this happened I mean the lock must have had crazy embers going which again play one in a bg its very hard to get past 2 embers unless you in just fight in road with other idiots.

    Also I could be a jerk and talk about your playstlye but I'll turn it around and say I get destroyed by BM hunters. For a BM hunter to let me stand and cast anything but maybe my Imm and conflag should be destroyed. Yeah Choas bolt is crazy but only time I get off is some ninjah cast on people not paying attention. Back to playing a lock if they do nerf C.Bolt then yeah they would have to rework locks alot because it is pretty much a stand still get smashed spec.

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Reyzzz View Post
    Dafuq? last time I faced destro in arena I took 280k in 2 globals with 59% resi (50k conflag +172k chaos bolt + 50k conflag)
    Chaos Bolt has a 3 sec cast time and requires a burning ember, you let me hard cast that you deserve to get hit and die...

  18. #198
    For edification purposes:

    Quote Originally Posted by Tya View Post
    Warlocks are horrific in arena.

    http://www.crossladder.com/arena/stats/

    Ignoring monks (new class and all), locks are tied 9th in 3v3, and solidly 9th in both 2v2 and 5v5.
    ^This. (And add to that the fact that there are ZERO warlocks in any of the top comps in any of the brackets.)

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  19. #199
    I am Murloc! rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Supernex View Post
    ^This. (And add to that the fact that there are ZERO warlocks in any of the top comps in any of the brackets.)
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/pvp/?battlegroup=cyclone has a warlock on the 1st team of the top 3 5v5 teams.
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/pvp/?battlegroup=rampage has a warlock on the 3rd team of the top 3 2v2 teams.
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/pvp/?battlegroup=reckoning has a warlock on the 2nd and 3rd team of the top 3 5v5 teams. And the 3rd team of the top 3 3v3 teams.
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/pvp/?bat...up=retaliation has a warlock on the 1st team of the top 3 5v5 teams.
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/pvp/?battlegroup=shadowburn has a warlock on the 1st team of the top 3 2v2 teams.
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/pvp/?bat...up=stormstrike has a warlock on the 1st team of the top 3 5v5 teams.
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/pvp/?bat...up=vindication has a warlock on the 3rd team of the top 3 5v5 teams.
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/pvp/?battlegroup=whirlwind has a warlock on the 3rd team of the top 3 3v3 teams.

    In summary there are warlocks on the top 3 teams in 8 of the 13 battle groups in the US region.The top 15 rated battleground players have two warlocks in the 1st and 6th position. 52% of pvp warlocks are destruction up from 46% yesterday. And currently a warlock is listed on one of the popular 5v5 team compositions.

    Warlocks are good enough to be in the top teams. They just might not be easy to play and thus aren't focus of the for the moment crowd that plays anything that allows them easy wins. A class isn't only balanced when it is being played by the most amount of people.
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  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post

    Warlocks are good enough to be in the top teams. They just might not be easy to play and thus aren't focus of the for the moment crowd that plays anything that allows them easy wins. A class isn't only balanced when it is being played by the most amount of people.
    Obviously, saying that there isnt a single warlock in any top arena comp is wrong, but linking a few armory doesnt hide the brutal global arena representation, lock are just clearly behind other classe right now

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