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  1. #201
    I am Murloc! rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gangresnake View Post
    Obviously, saying that there isnt a single warlock in any top arena comp is wrong, but linking a few armory doesnt hide the brutal global arena representation, lock are just clearly behind other classe right now
    Those aren't armory pages but the PvP tracking pages direct from Blizzard. Again the number of people playing a class doesn't say anything about the class being underpowered when compared to other classes. It just means fewer people play them.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Those aren't armory pages but the PvP tracking pages direct from Blizzard. Again the number of people playing a class doesn't say anything about the class being underpowered when compared to other classes. It just means fewer people play them.
    Does 20% of the playerbase play warrior and 3% play warlock ?

    Ps : Someone linked the global arena representation, and you link us a smaller, selected sample
    Also, the PvP tracking page is part of the armory
    Last edited by Gangresnake; 2012-11-04 at 06:20 PM.

  3. #203
    I am Murloc! rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gangresnake View Post
    Does 20% of the playerbase play warrior and 3% play warlock ?
    What does that have to do with anything I've said? The percentage of people playing a class has nothing to do with if a class is over powered, under powered or balanced.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    What does that have to do with anything I've said? The percentage of people playing a class has nothing to do with if a class is over powered, under powered or balanced.
    Indeed, so having the stats of http://www.crossladder.com/arena/stats/
    It shouldnt be hard to conclude that warlocks are rather weak in the current PvP

  5. #205
    I am Murloc! rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gangresnake View Post
    Indeed, so having the stats of http://www.crossladder.com/arena/stats/
    It shouldnt be hard to conclude that warlocks are rather weak in the current PvP
    Are you actually reading what I am saying? I'll repeat myself again. The amount of people that play a class has nothing to do with that classes balance. I already proved how inaccurate your conclusion is. Because 8 battle groups have warlocks on the top 3 Arena teams. If warlocks are as weak as you say then why are they on so many of the top 3 teams?

    Again. The number of people that play a class states nothing about the balance of that class.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Are you actually reading what I am saying? I'll repeat myself again. The amount of people that play a class has nothing to do with that classes balance. I already proved how inaccurate your conclusion is. Because 8 battle groups have warlocks on the top 3 Arena teams. If warlocks are as weak as you say then why are they on so many of the top 3 teams?

    Again. The number of people that play a class states nothing about the balance of that class.
    Are 3% of people playing warlock and 20% playing warrior ? Again ? Because warlock representation is just that low, so where do you get the info that SO FEW people play warlock ?

    Also you provided a few armory link, thank you but we dont need it, there are many site doing the global stats, such as :
    http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/stat...-0--0-0-0.html

  7. #207
    I am Murloc! rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gangresnake View Post
    Are 3% of people playing warlock and 20% playing warrior ? Again ? Because warlock representation is just that low, so where do you get the info that SO FEW people play warlock ?
    You are the one that is saying that so few play warlocks in arena's and that is proof they are suck in PvP. I am then one saying that you can't go by how many people play a class to determine how balanced a class is. Again I did not provide armory links. I provide the PvP leader board links that all third party sites draw information from. It is the same info presented in a relevant to class balance manner.

    Warlocks are on top rated teams. So why do you think Warlocks suck at PvP when they are on 8 of the 13 US Battle groups top 3 arena teams? How did they get there if they suck? Again the amount of people that play a class isn't an indication of how well they perform in PvP. You don't have to be a popular class to be able to do good at PvP.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  8. #208
    Arena representation based on class
    warrior 19.93% 353
    hunter 16.32% 289
    paladin 13.61% 241
    druid 12.37% 219
    shaman 11.58% 205
    mage 9.09% 161
    priest 8.13% 144
    dk 3.39% 60
    warlock 3.39% 60
    rogue 1.36% 24
    monk 0.85% 15
    Total 100% 1771

    the 3rd most underplayed Class on Competitive PVP and with all 3 specs been bad for their reasons, and cause ppl dying gets raped at Random Bg's from Destro locks we need NERF?.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    You are the one that is saying that so few play warlocks in arena's and that is proof they are suck in PvP. I am then one saying that you can't go by how many people play a class to determine how balanced a class is. Again I did not provide armory links. I provide the PvP leader board links that all third party sites draw information from. It is the same info presented in a relevant to class balance manner.

    Warlocks are on top rated teams. So why do you think Warlocks suck at PvP when they are on 8 of the 13 US Battle groups top 3 arena teams? How did they get there if they suck? Again the amount of people that play a class isn't an indication of how well they perform in PvP. You don't have to be a popular class to be able to do good at PvP.
    I do no say that few people play warlock, I just point out the statistics and conclude that warlock are in a bad state right now.
    You provided a few select BG, I provided the global arena representations.

    "Warlocks are on top rated teams" is quite the vague statement. Providing the link of 2 warlocks high rated in 3v3 isnt really needed because as you can see, I have the global stats of every Player/Class/Comps at various rating.
    And the result is that Warlock arent doing as well as those 2 guy you linked. (2v2 and 5v5 isnt really relevant, sorry)

  10. #210
    Back in cata warlocks were the highest represented dps class outside of rogues. Atm MORE people play warlocks then in cata. Clearly something happened. The "less people play warlock" argument is BS.
    Last edited by scmpoe; 2012-11-04 at 10:27 PM.

  11. #211
    this is wholly a learn to play issue, destro burst is not only easily counter-able(if you have a warrior he can reflect it back to the warlock, killing him/her).
    but its also highly viable, we are literally surrounded by bright green fire during its cast.

    and it has already been nerfed in the PTR.
    GoSac's bonus dmg to CB is spread out by a dot, which was a big contributor to the massive number death from no where.
    Last edited by maldias; 2012-11-04 at 10:31 PM.

  12. #212
    I am Murloc! rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gangresnake View Post
    I do no say that few people play warlock, I just point out the statistics and conclude that warlock are in a bad state right now.
    You provided a few select BG, I provided the global arena representations.
    A select few? I provided links to the top 3 arena teams of 2v2, 3v3, and 5v5 for 8 of the 11 US battle groups. I didn't provide the remaining 3 because they did not have warlocks on the top 3 teams of those brackets. That is 72% of all US battle groups which is hardly a select few.

    And yes you are saying that few people play warlocks in PvP. That is the whole reason why you keep linking to statistics that show a lack of warlocks in PvP. You need to look at the performance of the warlocks that are PvP'ing and not the total number of warlocks that are PvP'ing. Again a class doesn't suck just because so few are playing it in PvP.



    "Warlocks are on top rated teams" is quite the vague statement. Providing the link of 2 warlocks high rated in 3v3 isnt really needed because as you can see, I have the global stats of every Player/Class/Comps at various rating.
    And the result is that Warlock arent doing as well as those 2 guy you linked. (2v2 and 5v5 isnt really relevant, sorry)
    It isn't a vague statement. There were three teams with warlocks in the top 3 3v3 teams for all of the battle groups I listed earlier. 2v2, 5v5, and Rated Battlegrounds are all relevant because they are all PvP. You can't have a discussion about a classes ability in PvP while ignore things that show your point has no merit.

    Performance is greater then the number of people playing a class. IF 8 out 13 battle groups can have teams with warlocks be in the top 3 teams across multiple brackets then there clearly isn't a problem with Warlocks. Otherwise how did those teams with warlocks get that high? The problem with warlocks is apparently not everyone can play them skillfully.

    If warlocks can earn top Arena rankings even in 3v3 then they can't be terrible otherwise they would never have gotten there. Their team never would have beaten out the combinations that you deem good. Which further reinforces the point you are ignoring. That popularity doesn't determine if a class is good at PvP.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2012-11-04 at 10:58 PM.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Are you actually reading what I am saying? I'll repeat myself again. The amount of people that play a class has nothing to do with that classes balance. I already proved how inaccurate your conclusion is. Because 8 battle groups have warlocks on the top 3 Arena teams. If warlocks are as weak as you say then why are they on so many of the top 3 teams?

    Again. The number of people that play a class states nothing about the balance of that class.
    You're pretty clueless if you think high-end PvPers just take whatever is available.

  14. #214
    I am Murloc! rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tya View Post
    You're pretty clueless if you think high-end PvPers just take whatever is available.
    The ironic thing is that you are proving what I am saying. That the amount of people playing a class globally doesn't indicate how good a class is at PvP. Because there are warlocks on high end pvp teams and as you say they don't just take whatever is available. So those warlocks must be considered good options for PvP.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  15. #215
    I'm completely taken aback by someone standing by that measure as a method of gauging if a class is fine at pvp

    Warriors are in top 3 teams on every battlegroup (and nearly every bracket)
    Shaman are in top 3 teams on every battlegroup
    Mages are in top 3 teams on every battlegroup
    Pallies are in top 3 teams on every battlegroup
    Hunters are in top 3 teams on every battlegroup
    Druids are in top 3 teams on 12 of 13 battlegroups
    Priests are in top 3 teams on 11 of 13 battlegroups
    Warlocks are in top 3 teams on 8 of 13 battlegroups
    Rogues are in top 3 teams on 6 of 13 battlegroups
    Death Knights are in top 3 teams on 5 of 13 battlegroups
    Monks are in top 3 teams on 3 of 13 battlegroups

    Oh look, if you're skilled enough you can make it top 3 no matter what class you play, the game is totally balanced!

    ...


    Oh wait no, because that's one of the worst gauges of class performance I've ever heard of. Representation/popularity does matter. Sometimes it indicates the class just has a really high skill floor to be competitive in pvp, but that still matters, and nerfing a class that is strong against bad players but just barely adequate at high end can just cripple it in competitive high level pvp. That's what locks are facing. I mean there's probably something to be said for tuning down the burst somewhat because bad players matter too, but the class absolutely has to be buffed somewhere else in return or it just ends up being completely gimped.

  16. #216
    Personal opinion, don't diss a class until you've played it. Roll a lock try it out tell me how it works out for you. As for me 9/10 i cant cast chaos bolt i a being cc'd/stunned or they use defensive cooldowns as they see me pop mine.



    Depends on the lock brothers, Opening post may have been a warlock like myself
    Last edited by Wannabetank; 2012-11-05 at 01:14 AM.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    A select few? I provided links to the top 3 arena teams of 2v2, 3v3, and 5v5 for 8 of the 11 US battle groups. I didn't provide the remaining 3 because they did not have warlocks on the top 3 teams of those brackets. That is 72% of all US battle groups which is hardly a select few.

    And yes you are saying that few people play warlocks in PvP. That is the whole reason why you keep linking to statistics that show a lack of warlocks in PvP. You need to look at the performance of the warlocks that are PvP'ing and not the total number of warlocks that are PvP'ing. Again a class doesn't suck just because so few are playing it in PvP.
    Let's play a game :
    You looked at the top 3 of every bracket of the US Ladder and gave me 10 warlocks at top rating
    So let's make the total of this "Top players" pool : 14 battlegroup, 30 top players/Battlegroup : A total of 420 players.
    On this total of 420 top players. We have 10 warlocks.
    You'll notice that I dont take every players in World of Warcraft, only the top players. So i'm not just looking at the total population of warlocks, and yet the total show that locks at top-level represent 2% of the ladder.
    Does 2% of the playerbase play warlock ? If you can prove they do, you will prove that warlock are doing fine right now.


    And as a final note, my explanation is just for you and for fun because in the end :
    -http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/statsglobal-classesrepartition-0-0.html
    Around 6.7% of the playerbase play warlock, not 2%.
    -2v2 and 5v5 arent relevant, because the first is unbalanced and no one care, and the second is underplayed so never useful to determine balance.
    -Class repartition is completely irrelevant to the results of the finals brackets since only 5% of the playerbase is attempting competitive PvP.
    -This was only the US bracket, we have the global numbers on many 3rd party sites. And they arent pretty for warlocks.

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Those aren't armory pages but the PvP tracking pages direct from Blizzard. Again the number of people playing a class doesn't say anything about the class being underpowered when compared to other classes. It just means fewer people play them.
    Brain Deadly is that you? LOL

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Gangresnake View Post
    Let's play a game :
    You looked at the top 3 of every bracket of the US Ladder and gave me 10 warlocks at top rating
    So let's make the total of this "Top players" pool : 14 battlegroup, 30 top players/Battlegroup : A total of 420 players.
    On this total of 420 top players. We have 10 warlocks.
    You'll notice that I dont take every players in World of Warcraft, only the top players. So i'm not just looking at the total population of warlocks, and yet the total show that locks at top-level represent 2% of the ladder.
    Does 2% of the playerbase play warlock ? If you can prove they do, you will prove that warlock are doing fine right now.


    And as a final note, my explanation is just for you and for fun because in the end :
    -http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/statsglobal-classesrepartition-0-0.html
    Around 6.7% of the playerbase play warlock, not 2%.
    -2v2 and 5v5 arent relevant, because the first is unbalanced and no one care, and the second is underplayed so never useful to determine balance.
    -Class repartition is completely irrelevant to the results of the finals brackets since only 5% of the playerbase is attempting competitive PvP.
    -This was only the US bracket, we have the global numbers on many 3rd party sites. And they arent pretty for warlocks.
    Honestly, the way that guy words it he seems to think that warlocks are fine because there are any warlocks at all in the top 420 players.
    I can't tell if he's trolling or honestly believes what he's typing but in either case it's so wrong that it's not even worth responding to

  20. #220
    That's fine OP. The thing is destro suck in pvp because you need to cast. If you're good you should never ever let the lock cast. If you got 140k crit twice it probable means that you had less than 200k hp left, got crited by CB (over 100k) then finished by Shadowburn.

    If it can make you feel better, destro locks die in a charge of a warrior. charge => stun => dead. That's with 450k hp and 50% resilience.

    Locks are not even fine in my books, they're in a terrible state right now. But yes, free casting destrolock will kill things. And a destro should never have the chance to free cast.

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