GC: "Rogues are fine, L2P"

[Sturmbringe]

if every class gets nerfed to rogues lvl, healers will be even more op, hoping they implemend healing reduction in bg/arenas, or a mana drain in combat, slowly reducing their mana aslong they are in combat.

This will never happen. They are not nerfing Warrior burst, and Warriors at present have got enough power to stunlock one to death with no crits at all scored. Happened to me a few days ago. Warrior with 1/3 health left stunlocked me to death while I was in PvP gear, full health and buffed up. I checked my log afterwards and he scored not crits at all. Everything was just normal damage. Imagine what would have happened if he did crit.

^^This kind of burst is NOT getting nerfed, so I really wouldn't be worried about healers dominating as Warrior combos will continue to be hot even in 5.1.

[cexspa]

This will never happen. They are not nerfing Warrior burst, and Warriors at present have got enough power to stunlock one to death with no crits at all scored. Happened to me a few days ago. Warrior with 1/3 health left stunlocked me to death while I was in PvP gear, full health and buffed up. I checked my log afterwards and he scored not crits at all. Everything was just normal damage. Imagine what would have happened if he did crit.

^^This kind of burst is NOT getting nerfed, so I really wouldn't be worried about healers dominating as Warrior combos will continue to be hot even in 5.1.

no offense but if this happened to you then you should really l2p.

[Sturmbringe]

no offense but if this happened to you then you should really l2p.

Yeah, I agree. Seven years PvP'ing with my Rogue are not enough to learn how to play.

[Incineration]

Not since HARP in TBC. The whole only rogues can understand argument has never worked, it didnt work last season when you all were arguing that globalling people in cheapshot wasn't overpowered, and it's not going to work this season.

There is no sympathetic "only us rogues understand the misery we're going through"-argument. However, there is a "you're in no way qualified to argue for or against this case"-argument.

Overpowered damage output isn't comparable to underpowered damage output. Too much damage is noticeable by everyone. Too little damage goes unnoticed by anyone but the person producing it. And getting killed during a Cheap Shot is/was impossible, unless 1, you suck, 2, the rogue had immense luck, a 3, the person getting stunned was in full PvE greens...

---------- Post added 2012-11-02 at 12:40 AM ----------

no offense but if this happened to you then you should really l2p.

As mentioned a thousand times, rogue burst is very mediocre at the moment. A warrior, with Second Wind running, still does enough damage and has enough survivability to both out-sustain you AND out-damage you. There's just nothing you can really do about it. Have Wound Poison running, pop all offensive cooldowns, hope you get him into a stun before he gets you in one, try to string your remaining combat cc's from there, and hope to god he dies before you do.

[Koji2k11]

I very sincerely hope that Ghostcrawler DOES read these forums and he stands up upon reading the OP

"NOT YPOLOGOS!!!! NOT HIM!!!!"
Ghostcrawler looks in horror, his mouth agape for several minutes as the horror truly hits him.
He reaches, hand trembling, for the phone. Dialing, then re-dialing from the shake in his hand, he puts the phone to his ear
"Yes dear?" his wife answers, a worried sound in her voice. She knows he never calls during work hours.
"Y...Ypologos.... h-he......SOB!!!"
The sound of worry increases audibly
"W-what do you mean, what has happened to Ypologos? We saw him at dinner just the other.."
"HE'S GONE!!!!!"
Stunned Silence
"N...No..No he can't be...nnoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo"


Rest in peace Ypologos, brave adventurer of Azeroth.

lol made my day

[Frazzle.d]

What you are saying is true, but its coming from a really OP class atm. Rogues might be "worse than almost everyone else", but someone has to be the worst. As it has already been stated 100 times int his thread, rogues are fine, its just classes like yours(hunter) that is way over-tuned atm. Once hunter, warrior, etc is scaled back a bit, rogue will fall back into place.

One spec (BM) is way more powerful than pretty much everything else right due to the number of sheer cooldowns they can pop at once and a bug in arena that made Stampede more powerful than it should have been. Furthermore, a quick look at my armory shows that I play Survival with my offspec MM sat collecting dust. I dislike BM, and have never played it for very long. I once used it a couple of times during Cata to tame some rares iirc. While you are looking at my armory, take the time to consider my ilevel and quality of gear. I think I have about three pvp pieces right now; two of those I got earlier on today. I was still playing in Cataclysmic gear up until earlier on.

Now, we could sit here and argue all day long about this, but right now I am telling you that after the patch Rogues will still suffer problems and we will have the continued cycle of a bunch of classes sitting in awful places for most of the expansion because no one listened to the people who actually pvp. In 5.1 I will get buffed so that I can keep Hawk up while I am casting cobra shot - great for me, less so for the Rogue or most other melee types. Iirc, Survival was pretty damned shite for most of Cata in pvp because nothing in the tier really made sense because it didn't get changed with the other baseline changes to the class. Now it'll probably be viewed as quite powerful soon as 5.1 lands since you'll be able to do this or that, when in reality, I have been doing it since I started levelling to 90 in the first place.

As a warrior - protection wise, I have no problems with a rogue right now at level 86 in Cata / resillience gear in bgs. I assume most of the rogues I face as well have upgraded their weapons since I don't see the legendary procs. They just lack any kind of superior punch for those 35% and below moments and it takes them far too long to get ramped up. Like GC also says, their tricks have been incorporated by a lot of specs, my other main pvp character - a disc priest, not one of the OP types during this FoTM has a version of vanish for example that I can combine with improved Fade (like a single target smoke bomb on myself) and Shadowmeld as well as trashing most rogues I face off against because of the amount of tricks and counters I can perform.

I feel that the main underlying issue here is something that GC actually mentioned - there is a lot more abilities and debuffs now that players are still getting used to and understanding how they work. A lot of what the Rogue has talent wise is all fine and dandy for static one on one fights, but you do not get to duel for honour and conquest in this game. I also find that the developers are now forgetting what they have in the game or what things might be like for a class / spec in a certain situation. It's all good and all saying that things like Shockwave and whatever other instant abilities that are the core parts of a nuke are being watched carefully and then saying that they will adjust other talents accordingly to compensate since obviously you can't just start an expansion off, inform everyone that because of one class, everyone will get all their new toys nerfed and taken away out of the cot because this will piss everyone off because no one really gives a shit about pvp balance, just that their character can still kill and blow stuff up

---------- Post added 2012-11-01 at 11:54 PM ----------

no offense but if this happened to you then you should really l2p.

It's not really that unlikey, as Prot I have fought more than just a Rogue to a complete standstill, bringing them from a jump and full hp advantage down to my level of hp then Second Wind keeps feeding me hp and rage. Shield Barrier, Recklessness, Shockwave, improved Charge, Intimidating Shout and hamstring / Staggering Shout / Piercing Howl will often seal the deal if the Rogue has (and will often have) been forced to use cooldowns such as Vanish already just to keep me stunned and keep doing damage.

[Sendai]

Another thread that will be closed thanks to people who play other classes and come here to insult and troll us and give zero arguments besides "you're fine, stop crying". The thread itself is hot due to its nature.

MMO-Champion mods should start considering deleting posts and the answers to them instead of keeping them, so we can have a normal discussion and not good threads closed, like in the past. Especially when the mod closing them tells me, by private message, that he'll open it back and doesn't. It's just not fair that they can call us "retards" and turn down potentially good threads. MMO-C mod style is punishing good posting because of bad posting of others.

---

On topic, I'm giving the game a break. Arena and the game in general have become very frustrating. But about our damage in arena, the problem is that we can't stick on target. My 2s partner, a mage, constantly deals 2-5x times more damage than I do. In 3s, the warrior, does the same. At least I got control...but mage and warrior got just more control than I do, plus more survivability. Other classes may be nerfed, but our class is still outdated and auto-attack bots.

[Sturmbringe]

Another thread that will be closed thanks to people who play other classes and come here to insult and troll us and give zero arguments besides "you're fine, stop crying". The thread itself is hot due to its nature.

MMO-Champion mods should start considering deleting posts and the answers to them instead of keeping them, so we can have a normal discussion and not good threads closed, like in the past. Especially when the mod closing them tells me, by private message, that he'll open it back and doesn't. It's just not fair that they can call us "retards" and turn down potentially good threads. MMO-C mod style is punishing good posting because of bad posting of others.

---

On topic, I'm giving the game a break. Arena and the game in general have become very frustrating. But about our damage in arena, the problem is that we can't stick on target. My 2s partner, a mage, constantly deals 2-5x times more damage than I do. In 3s, the warrior, does the same. At least I got control...but mage and warrior got just more control than I do, plus more survivability. Other classes may be nerfed, but our class is still outdated and auto-attack bots.

Please just report trolls. If you don't report them, Mods can't deal with them.

On topic, Rogues are the squishiest and easiest to kill class in the WoW. As you note, everyone else has got far more survivability than we do, more mobility and more control. Previously, this was balanced with us doing better damage than most classes/specs, however now someone had this brilliant idea to nerf our PvP damage, eliminate our burst, AND take away our mobility.

The result is statistics as those noted in the OP.

[quikbunny]

You can no longer one shot clothies that are gearing up, I do not see the problem here. Just carry on sapping players mid-field, and Vanish off cooldown whenever there's a slight risk you may be beaten.

[Firebert]

We are looking at improving Rogue mobility and control in conservative ways.

Baseline movement speed increased to 20%, Nightstalker changed to include a Death's Advance style minimum movement speed talent with the Nightstalker's movement speed buff removed, Nightstalker becomes baseline for PvP.

---------- Post added 2012-11-02 at 12:20 PM ----------

You can no longer one shot clothies that are gearing up, I do not see the problem here. Just carry on sapping players mid-field, and Vanish off cooldown whenever there's a slight risk you may be beaten.

Rogue tactics now seem to be join in one-on-one fights JUST for the CC, such that the other player can deal the damage. I'm spending about 80% of a BG in stealth waiting for opportunities to present themselves because I can't kill things solo.

[Daez]

This game is NOT balanced around arena play. At its core, it is still balanced around PVE. Then comes BGs. Then comes arena. If you are looking at only one aspect of the game, especially such a very miniscule one, then you are not talking about the whole picture. Personally, I would love to see them do away with the stupidity that is arena to send a clear message that they are tired of trying to balance this game around three major aspects of game play.

[Injin]

I arena with my rogue and my druid.

I'm terrible.

However, with my hunter oppo in 2's all I do is enter, wait for him to kill the other team and collect points. I may have got a cheap shot off once or twice, but it's mostly about waiting for him to kill everything while I read the paper. Unless the other team has a hunter, in which case it's whoever gets crits fastest. If they have two hunters, it just means we have to requeue.

....if I am going to be this kitable I need to be utterly lethal up close. Simple as that. For this level of benny hilldom, we need to be two shotting anything we ever get next to. Assassins don't leap of the shadows and control their target for 3 minutes while hoping some passer by does the actual killing. ;p

[Trubo]

Was leveling my 85 Alliance DK (full pve, mix of normal and LFR DS stuff) in Jade Forest. Was fighting the tiger that dropped Captain Tyler's key (every so often you enter into a SPAM 1 TO KILL TIGER sort of deal) when a 90 rogue attempted to gank me. After 3 more of the tiger stuns, killed the tiger, turned to the rogue, and brought him to 15% before he ran away from me. Would have killed him if I remembered where I had bound Death Coil, Icy Chains, and Death Grip.

I hated rogues with a passion in Cata but yeah, either that rogue was complete garbage, rogue damage is underpowered in PvP, or some combination of the two. I left out that maybe I'm some sort of savant when it comes to DKs because I'm not.

[T Man]

Was leveling my 85 Alliance DK (full pve, mix of normal and LFR DS stuff) in Jade Forest. Was fighting the tiger that dropped Captain Tyler's key (every so often you enter into a SPAM 1 TO KILL TIGER sort of deal) when a 90 rogue attempted to gank me. After 3 more of the tiger stuns, killed the tiger, turned to the rogue, and brought him to 15% before he ran away from me. Would have killed him if I remembered where I had bound Death Coil, Icy Chains, and Death Grip.

I hated rogues with a passion in Cata but yeah, either that rogue was complete garbage, rogue damage is underpowered in PvP, or some combination of the two. I left out that maybe I'm some sort of savant when it comes to DKs because I'm not.

Even tho my main is a rogue I felt bad when my level 87 shaman was able to solo a level 90 rogue my frost shock kiting.

I dont understand how blizzard can GIVE classes more speed and movment and then inreturn take away that from a rogue and expect the game to be balanced.

Did you know that EVERY class but rogues have a CD that resets on boss kill / wipe.

[Sturmbringe]

From the NA forums:

I've been playing my shadow priest , just got the priest to level 90 last night. The amount of tools that my priest has compared to my rogue is hilarious.

Rogue:
1 Vanish, 3 minutes CD
1 CoS, 2 minutes CD
1 Evasion ( lol ), 3 minutes CD
1 CR, 2 minute CD
1 Blind 3, minutes CD
Crippling poison / Mind numbing / Paralytic / Shiv poisons, 10 second CD
1 Interupt, 10 second CD
1 Shadowstep that doesn't remove roots, etc, 24 second CD

Spriest:
1 "Vanish", 30 seconds CD
3 Fears, 30 CD / 45 second CD / 45 second CD
1 Dispersion, 1.75 minutes CD
1 Blanket Silence, 45 second CD
Dispell and Mass Dispell, 0 CD / 15 second CD
1 Vampric Embrace, 3 minute CD
1 Fear Ward, 3 minute CD
1 50% slow with damage, 0 CD but channeled
1 Root breaker / movement impairing effect breaker with immunity for 3 seconds, 30 sec CD
Good heals / OH without breaking Shadow form with renew, prayer of mending, and PW:S
Amazing off heals by breaking shadow form with flash heal, binding heal, etc.

I might be missing something for either class, but you get the idea.

---------- Post added 2012-11-02 at 01:36 PM ----------

Epic thread from the NA Rogue forums:

[Hungrydingo]

Waste of time trying to argue with people who come in here arguing Rogues are fine or deserve to be bad because we were OP for a season in Cataclysm. I don't know what makes them think every one who played a Rogue thought otherwise, there is no denying we did ridiculous damage with the legendary daggers. My rogue is still the only class I can play all the time, I can dabble in others from time to time but at the end of the day my Rogue is just the way I want to play an MMO. Telling me I deserve to not have fun for an entire expansion because a select few players have wounded egos from losing to Rogues for one season in one expansion is just idiotic. Blizzard will see this and they won't let Rogues just sit as being the least played class for as long as they have and let them be hands down the worst class in PVP next to the brand new Monk class people are just kind of trying to figure out.

[Boathouse]

Rogues have been in the top comps since arenas were released...It's the start of one season and they are being under represented. It will be fixed, read the last line of what GC said, he isn't saying rogues are fine at all.

[wow]

Rogues have been in the top comps since arenas were released...It's the start of one season and they are being under represented. It will be fixed, read the last line of what GC said, he isn't saying rogues are fine at all.

Actions speak louder than words and all they've done for many builds is a blind change.

[Sonrisa]

Monks looking good.

[ati87]

Actions speak louder than words and all they've done for many builds is a blind change.

The most important thing is to fix warriors, hunters and mages first (in this order even) and then see how the changes will effect the overall balance between classes.

Given the fact that rogues as a melee class have limited escape spells while at the same time low melee protection (leather is just a small upgrade from cloth) you may be fixed by just nerfing the top 3 overrepresented classes right now.

If classes aren't getting destroyed by warriors and hunters or controlled by warriors and mages it may be enough to have a balanced representation.

Honestly people should be glad, this is perhaps the first time Blizzard has acknowledged the overpowered classes while promising fixes at the same time. Blizzard clearly understands what the true problem is (as evidence by the post made by GC) and gave us a peek on how they want to fix it.