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  1. #121
    I am Murloc! Xanjori's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sendai View Post
    Oh man, poor you. Please, stay away from the rogue forum full-time, you are useless.
    What because I dont come in here and cry non-stop. Find me one post from a decent rogue that wants to bemoan had bad we are right now.
    [08:44:11] Kurioxan: as long they get big im alright with that

    http://webchat.quakenet.org/?channels=MMOC-GenOT

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Xanjori View Post
    What because I dont come in here and cry non-stop. Find me one post from a decent rogue that wants to bemoan had bad we are right now.
    Weren't you the guy giving PVE lessons while having raided only in LFR? You disappeared after getting busted, didn't you?

    Decent enough?
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...59?page=14#266
    Shadow Walk : Significantly increases Stealth effectiveness for 6 sec, but causes Stealth to be nerfed to justify its usage. In addition, it uses old Enveloping Shadows icon and has no sound, animation or spell effect to show that the skill is actually doing something.

  3. #123
    I am Murloc! Xanjori's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sendai View Post
    Weren't you the guy giving PVE lessons while having raided only in LFR? You disappeared after getting busted, didn't you?
    No, the thread got locked because after I posted video evidence of what I was saying people resorted to armoury bashing (which hadnt updated) because they didnt actually have an argument in the first place.

    And as of right now I hold a top 50 ranking for half the fights in MSV, wanna talk more?
    [08:44:11] Kurioxan: as long they get big im alright with that

    http://webchat.quakenet.org/?channels=MMOC-GenOT

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Xanjori View Post
    And as of right now I hold a top 50 ranking for half the fights in MSV, wanna talk more?
    Top 50, for half the fights? You're clearly god-tier.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Xanjori View Post
    No, the thread got locked because after I posted video evidence of what I was saying people resorted to armoury bashing (which hadnt updated) because they didnt actually have an argument in the first place.

    And as of right now I hold a top 50 ranking for every fight in MSV, wanna talk more?
    You're hilarious, man. Now you're ignoring the link I posted. I want to talk more, you have to answer arguments from me and Incineration. You can't just ignore everything and post just what is interesting for you because you can't counter the rest. Do you even know about fallacious arguments?
    Shadow Walk : Significantly increases Stealth effectiveness for 6 sec, but causes Stealth to be nerfed to justify its usage. In addition, it uses old Enveloping Shadows icon and has no sound, animation or spell effect to show that the skill is actually doing something.

  6. #126
    I am Murloc! Xanjori's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sendai View Post
    You're hilarious, man. Now you're ignoring the link I posted. I want to talk more, you have to answer arguments from me and Incineration. You can't just ignore everything and post just what is interesting for you because you can't counter the rest. Do you even know about fallacious arguments?
    I know what over exaggerating shit is. The point is that a lot of your arguments are based around different mechanics. Paladins and Monks cant use CP on target, because of the healing based specs, Rogues can. Our mechanics are old, but thats because they work, there has literally been no need to change the way energy and CPs work because its not something that really needs changing. Its not like rage where it was too reliant on gears, its not like totems that were overly fiddly or important. We got buffs to help us bring something that other classes bring to raids. We could use reduced energy costs on some builders, I agree with that and my biggest wish for the next patch would be to see Mutilates energy cost reduced. However there is nothing about the class that is outright broken.

    People go on about how bad rogues are at the start of an expansion, but then get fixed easily, why is that? Its because the class can be adjusted easily. Passive damage too strong? Nerf on SnD, buff to BS or Evisc. Self healing too low? Increased healing from Recupe/Leaching Poison. Mobility too low? Reduced CD on Sprint or ShS, or increased speed on Sprint or ShS. Energy regen too low? Increase its base regen, increases its scaling with haste, reduce cost of abilities. A million small fixes can be applied to us.

    These arent things that require major changes, because we arent Warriors that went from dealing 0 damage to plate and shields, to gaining CS and dealing OTT damage to everything and therefore needed an ability to have a different effect in PvE to PvP.

    Now you may not like some of our abilities, but I doubt there are many people out there that are entirely happy with every ability their class has. Personally I feel the class got smoothed out a lot this expac, I think everyones feeling the difference in going from end raid epics/legendaries to blues/beginner epics. I think this is Blizzard and theyve never really launched a game/expansion that hasnt required tweaking over the first few months. I do think we will get tweaks and I dont think they'll be OTT "Rogues now have CP on themselves and all finishers are free" kinda changes, because there is simply no real need for those changes.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-03 at 11:34 AM ----------

    Also another thing thats bugged me, people are saying the spec is too passive in terms of damage done from white/poison damage. Thats pretty much how rogues have always been though, when Assassination was the top DPS spec in Wotlk around 70% of its damage came from AA and poison. My last WoL for Sub shows only 40% of my damage from AA and poison, now if Sub does its scaling thing with the gear, and people play it then its definitely the less passive spec. I should give it a go in my current gear, especially with the ST nerf incoming.
    [08:44:11] Kurioxan: as long they get big im alright with that

    http://webchat.quakenet.org/?channels=MMOC-GenOT

  7. #127
    Bloodsail Admiral Sturmbringe's Avatar
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    @Xanjori:

    Your knowledge of the Rogue class is very limited, probably because you started in WOTLK or CATA.

    1. The Rogue class always was the archetypal example of burst since the beginning. Ming's Cookie-Cutter Assa-Sub spec in 2005-2006. CB/Prep during TBC and Mutilate spec in WOTLK. The shift from primarily burst to sustained damage is a recent development.

    2. There are plenty of people out there pretty happy with their class. Ask Warriors, Hunters and Mages.

    3. The class in PvP is pretty much broken as the OP statistics prove. Your talk is cheap, and I am not buying any. Numbers count.
    NINJA TURTLES as the next playable WoW race/class combo. WoW has got Kung Fu Pandas, Pokemon and recently even Transformers in it, so I don't see how Ninja Turtles would be any less pathetic than current "WoW" is.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by zykaz View Post
    ONE SEASON?

    RMP Rank one 11 seasons in a row.

    what an idiotic statement lol~

    on another note right now whilst i feel my rogue is "okay" to play, it feels like our first 4 tiers of talents are entirely based on necessity rather than additional neat benefits to spells which adds fun and versatility to gameplay. using warrior as an example, you don't take charge as a talent, you take a talent altering charge to your tastes or requirements. the only tiers i feel like i truly have choice in are 75 and more rarely 90 where as on my warrior the only tier i feel like i can't change is second wind and that's simply because it's broken, if enraged regen got it's rage requirement lowered by a lot and second wind got slightly nerfed their talent tree would be perfect.

  9. #129
    Bloodsail Admiral Sturmbringe's Avatar
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    THIS JUST IN: LATEST PTR PATCH NOTES

    Rogue (Forums / Skills / Talent Calculator)

    The cooldown of Sprint has been reduced to 45 seconds, down from 1 minute. THIS CHANGE WAS REVERTED, SPRINT IS AT 1 MINUTE AGAIN
    *NEW: The cooldown of Blind has been reduced to 90 seconds, down from 3 minutes.
    Looks like GC has "fixed" us. We will be able to blind now every 90 seconds.

    Of course, this will totally fix our inadequate mobility, lowest survivability of any class in the game, low energy gen, and low burst damage issues. All hail Blizzard.
    NINJA TURTLES as the next playable WoW race/class combo. WoW has got Kung Fu Pandas, Pokemon and recently even Transformers in it, so I don't see how Ninja Turtles would be any less pathetic than current "WoW" is.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Xanjori View Post
    I know what over exaggerating shit is. The point is that a lot of your arguments are based around different mechanics. Paladins and Monks cant use CP on target, because of the healing based specs, Rogues can. Our mechanics are old, but thats because they work, there has literally been no need to change the way energy and CPs work because its not something that really needs changing. Its not like rage where it was too reliant on gears, its not like totems that were overly fiddly or important. We got buffs to help us bring something that other classes bring to raids. We could use reduced energy costs on some builders, I agree with that and my biggest wish for the next patch would be to see Mutilates energy cost reduced. However there is nothing about the class that is outright broken.
    Those mechanics are based on rogues' mechanics, that's why they can be compared to a point. Paladin and Monk having healing specs is not important here, as I'm comparing Windwalker with Retribution with Rogues, all melee DPS specs, one of them with burdens that are from the past and not needed anymore. Maybe in vanilla having a rogue building combo points on a rogue to unleash a cold blood 1900 evis on a 3.5k HP mage would have been broken, but not anymore. Rogue is playing with old rules and limits that other classes no longer have.

    People go on about how bad rogues are at the start of an expansion, but then get fixed easily, why is that? Its because the class can be adjusted easily. Passive damage too strong? Nerf on SnD, buff to BS or Evisc. Self healing too low? Increased healing from Recupe/Leaching Poison. Mobility too low? Reduced CD on Sprint or ShS, or increased speed on Sprint or ShS. Energy regen too low? Increase its base regen, increases its scaling with haste, reduce cost of abilities. A million small fixes can be applied to us.
    The problem stands though. The class can be very powerful in both PVP and PVE (see 4.3), that it will still be underplayed compared to other classes except warlocks and maybe now monks (we'll see in some months). That means that something is, indeed, broken. The class went from having lots of unique things (stealth, different resource system, strong CC) to having almost nothing unique or shiny compared to other classes. These arent things that require major changes, because we arent Warriors that went from dealing 0 damage to plate and shields, to gaining CS and dealing OTT damage to everything and therefore needed an ability to have a different effect in PvE to PvP.

    Now you may not like some of our abilities, but I doubt there are many people out there that are entirely happy with every ability their class has. Personally I feel the class got smoothed out a lot this expac, I think everyones feeling the difference in going from end raid epics/legendaries to blues/beginner epics. I think this is Blizzard and theyve never really launched a game/expansion that hasnt required tweaking over the first few months. I do think we will get tweaks and I dont think they'll be OTT "Rogues now have CP on themselves and all finishers are free" kinda changes, because there is simply no real need for those changes.
    I just don't agree. The class plays pretty much the same as it did in Cata or even Wrath. What is exactly new? We're basically still using the same builders to keep Slice and Dice up and spam Eviscerates.

    Numbers don't lie and something must be changed if a class that is routinely good in both PVE and PVP (with highs and downs) is so underplayed, especially when in the past it was a quite popular class. Maybe combo points on the rogue is not the solution, but it's something to consider. It's really, really nice to not have to worry about losing your combo points on the current target. Plus, Slice and Dice must die and some other changes must be done. The class is stale.

    Also another thing thats bugged me, people are saying the spec is too passive in terms of damage done from white/poison damage. Thats pretty much how rogues have always been though, when Assassination was the top DPS spec in Wotlk around 70% of its damage came from AA and poison. My last WoL for Sub shows only 40% of my damage from AA and poison, now if Sub does its scaling thing with the gear, and people play it then its definitely the less passive spec. I should give it a go in my current gear, especially with the ST nerf incoming.
    Are you sure it was as high as 70%? I don't personally remember (raided mostly as DK), but I guess we can find some logs.
    Shadow Walk : Significantly increases Stealth effectiveness for 6 sec, but causes Stealth to be nerfed to justify its usage. In addition, it uses old Enveloping Shadows icon and has no sound, animation or spell effect to show that the skill is actually doing something.

  11. #131
    I am Murloc! Xanjori's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sturmbringe View Post
    @Xanjori:

    Your knowledge of the Rogue class is very limited, probably because you started in WOTLK or CATA.

    1. The Rogue class always was the archetypal example of burst since the beginning. Ming's Cookie-Cutter Assa-Sub spec in 2005-2006. CB/Prep during TBC and Mutilate spec in WOTLK. The shift from primarily burst to sustained damage is a recent development.

    2. There are plenty of people out there pretty happy with their class. Ask Warriors, Hunters and Mages.

    3. The class in PvP is pretty much broken as the OP statistics prove. Your talk is cheap, and I am not buying any. Numbers count.
    Except Im talking PvE, which none of your points have anything to do with.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-03 at 01:13 PM ----------

    Are you sure it was as high as 70%? I don't personally remember (raided mostly as DK), but I guess we can find some logs.
    Yes this one Im certain on. I remember discussing it on the forums at the times.
    [08:44:11] Kurioxan: as long they get big im alright with that

    http://webchat.quakenet.org/?channels=MMOC-GenOT

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Xanjori View Post
    Except Im talking PvE, which none of your points have anything to do with.[COLOR="red"]
    This whole thread is pvp based besides your posts, the thread originated from the pvp blog posted a couple days back..

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Sturmbringe View Post
    Actually no, Assassination is rather okay with Vendetta+Shadow Blades up IMHO. It is Sub, THE Rogue PvP spec (direct descendant of Ming's Cookie Cutter Assassination/Sub Vanilla Spec) whose damage is sub-par and needs a buff..
    I agree with this, assassination is actually quite good in pvp atm without having to stack deadly, dispatch proc, vendetta/shadow blades
    It may not be the best for high rated arena but it's certaintly better than it was in cata.

    Subtlety is what is bad, the recent changes/nerfs have really gutted the spec IMO.
    No passive crit chance, sanguinary veins not on hemorrhage, etc...

    The change to sanguinary veins seems like another attempt to get people to use rupture but as soon as it gets taken off sanguinary, no one will use it.
    No one has wanted to use rupture since they nerfed its damage. Bring the damage back to make it a viable finisher and people will use it.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Guns View Post
    No one has wanted to use rupture since they nerfed its damage.
    Was there ever even a nerf? I'm pretty sure all rogue finishers have trailed off with every single Xpack. Rupture ticks are a joke, and even worse are things like Deadly Throw.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Xanjori View Post
    4 CP evenoms dont exist do they?
    I'm sorry, what...?
    What's that supposed to mean?
    Are you saying, "Yes, Incineration, you have a point. Relentless Strikes does indeed punish us unnecessarily."
    Or are you saying, "4 CP Envenoms actually do not exist!"?

    Try to be clear.

    EDIT: What Sendai said.

  16. #136
    can't you people read? he said rogue is in the place blizzard want them. its that the other classes are doing to much dmg. so instead of buffing rogues they nerf the rest.

  17. #137
    This only small part of the issues but seeing thats its intentional that death's advance, cat form, travel form, new windwalker passive run speeds all stack with everything. Why doesn't rogues passive stack why is everything this class has so outdated rogues are playing wow from expansions back while everyone else is playing mop. When are rogue abilities going to be brought to mop standards of quality.

  18. #138
    You know, I wish they would just let us have Preparation and Shadowstep at the same time. :/

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by wow View Post
    This only small part of the issues but seeing thats its intentional that death's advance, cat form, travel form, new windwalker passive run speeds all stack with everything. Why doesn't rogues passive stack why is everything this class has so outdated rogues are playing wow from expansions back while everyone else is playing mop. When are rogue abilities going to be brought to mop standards of quality.
    If it isnt going to stack they need to at least put out a new boot enchant. Absolutely retarded that I'm paying stat budget for run speed that doesn't work for me yet works for everyone else.

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