1. #1

    crit over haste after all ?

    hi

    i tested with my monk some different stat using at the boss dummy in the town.
    every test was ~ 3min long:

    -reforged completely on haste ( 6871) : 1st attempt ~ 62k dps, 2nd ~65,5k dps, 3rd ~ 64,9k dps

    - reforged comepletely on crit (24,3%(2952), haste was at that time at ~ 5,2k): 1st attempt ~ 68k dps, 2nd ~69k dps, 3rd ~ 69,2k dps

    - reforged til ~ 6000 haste ( as told in the guide ) and then the rest on crit: 1st attempt ~ 61k dps, 2nd ~62,5k dps, 3rd ~ 59,9k dps


    The results show me that im doing the most dmg ( at the dummy ! ) when im reforging my gear completely on crit .

    Does anyone one if these stats ( and priority) are al little mixing up under raid conditions (buffs) ? -> i mean, after these tests at the dummy, should i stay full on crit also in raid ? or does it change again, that a "reforge-type" which is worse at the dummy is better in raid ?


    Hope someone can help me with this prob

    here is my armory link if someones interested: http://eu.battle.net/wow/de/characte...kbird/advanced
    Last edited by kirby9113; 2012-11-01 at 11:33 AM.

  2. #2
    Theorycrafting based on 3-minutes dummy tests. Now this thread is gonna go far.




    On a less trollish note: you test environment is not really legitimate and you should always sim to get adequate results.

  3. #3
    http://simulationcraft.org/

    Both 1h and 2h top results show crit above haste. To get exact stat weights just use the simulator with your current gear loaded.

    Edit: I've made a quick run with your armory on 10,000 iterations. On your current gear level, your stat weights are Crit>Haste>Mastery. To be exact, they are:

    Crit: 1.13
    Haste: 1.04
    Mastery: 0.71

    (If you don't know what that means, if you have an item with 850 haste and compare it with one that has 730 crit, just get your calc out and compare: 850*1.04 vs 730*1.13).

    If you want to have even better scaling factors, run it with 50,000 iterations, wait an hour and you're set. Although crit will always be above haste.
    Last edited by Maveaux; 2012-11-01 at 12:35 PM.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Maveaux View Post
    http://simulationcraft.org/

    Both 1h and 2h top results show crit above haste. To get exact stat weights just use the simulator with your current gear loaded.

    Edit: I've made a quick run with your armory on 10,000 iterations. On your current gear level, your stat weights are Crit>Haste>Mastery. To be exact, they are:

    Crit: 1.13
    Haste: 1.04
    Mastery: 0.71

    (If you don't know what that means, if you have an item with 850 haste and compare it with one that has 730 crit, just get your calc out and compare: 850*1.04 vs 730*1.13).

    If you want to have even better scaling factors, run it with 50,000 iterations, wait an hour and you're set. Although crit will always be above haste.
    If you're already stacking haste then it means haste has a lower value as stacking it too far has diminishing returns. Simcraft weighs your stats as if you added 200 (or whatever you set scale factor to) rating to your stats it measures which is a higher value. So if you're stacking haste already then crit will definitely be valued higher.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Glurp View Post
    If you're already stacking haste then it means haste has a lower value as stacking it too far has diminishing returns. Simcraft weighs your stats as if you added 200 (or whatever you set scale factor to) rating to your stats it measures which is a higher value. So if you're stacking haste already then crit will definitely be valued higher.
    First of all, stacking doesn't matter because damage stats DO NOT DIMINISH. Haste did never, and will never diminish itself. That only happens in tank cases, especially with dodge and parry.

    You do not have to balance haste and crit in any situation. Find out what's better and go with it. Only exception are plateus, which make weights a bit wonky at times, but monks don't have any since haste plateus mostly deal with dot ticks. (and usually the distribution stays the same, just the gap gets bigger/smaller).

    Also you can set it whatever you want. Run it with +-3000 and it still is higher. Run it with BiS and it still is higher. Also the topdps simulation submits on simcraft both show crit way above haste (#1 entry has 8400 crit and 3400 haste).
    Use common sense.

    (And just to be complete, haste could potentially diminish it's value once you go beyond the global cooldown and regen more energy than you could spend - which is utterly impossible.)
    Last edited by Maveaux; 2012-11-01 at 02:47 PM.

  6. #6
    Slightly off topic, but where in SimCraft does it show the weights?

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Maveaux View Post
    First of all, stacking doesn't matter because damage stats DO NOT DIMINISH. Haste did never, and will never diminish itself. That only happens in tank cases, especially with dodge and parry.

    You do not have to balance haste and crit in any situation. Find out what's better and go with it. Only exception are plateus, which make weights a bit wonky at times, but monks don't have any since haste plateus mostly deal with dot ticks. (and usually the distribution stays the same, just the gap gets bigger/smaller).

    Also you can set it whatever you want. Run it with +-3000 and it still is higher. Run it with BiS and it still is higher. Also the topdps simulation submits on simcraft both show crit way above haste (#1 entry has 8400 crit and 3400 haste).
    Use common sense.

    (And just to be complete, haste could potentially diminish it's value once you go beyond the global cooldown and regen more energy than you could spend - which is utterly impossible.)

    Crit diminishes with % dmg increase the more % crit you have.

    100*0.8+200*0.2 = 120
    100*0.79+200*0.21 = 121

    100*0.5+200*0.5 = 150
    100*0.49+200*0.51 = 151

    In both cases you get 1 dmg.
    But you also get far less % dmg increase out of 1% crit when you already have 50%.

    This why stat weightings change, because they do diminish and increase in value depending on your other stats.


    PS: I could easily see having enough Haste + Mastery to be GCD capped. All you need to do is think beyond this tier of gear... This will likely be an issue in the future.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by morbidone View Post
    Crit diminishes with % dmg increase the more % crit you have.

    100*0.8+200*0.2 = 120
    100*0.79+200*0.21 = 121

    100*0.5+200*0.5 = 150
    100*0.49+200*0.51 = 151

    In both cases you get 1 dmg.
    But you also get far less % dmg increase out of 1% crit when you already have 50%.

    This why stat weightings change, because they do diminish and increase in value depending on your other stats.
    If you have 100 damage, and you get 10 more, then you do make 10% more damage.
    If you have 200 damage, and you get 10 more, then you do make 5% more damage.
    In both cases you did 10 more damage, hence only it's relation did diminish, not the benefit. Although this is no DR in typical manner, it could matter if you would get to the said 50% critchance or even higher. Which will not happen as even with heroic BIS gear focused on crit, with reforging focused on crit, you will get only to 34%.

    Also this only applies to crit, as haste is normalized.

    Weights do change because of the cross relation between each other: More haste = more casts. More casts = more crits. More crits = higher value for critical strike chance. And that doesn't include mastery and all the other things.



    PS: I could easily see having enough Haste + Mastery to be GCD capped. All you need to do is think beyond this tier of gear... This will likely be an issue in the future.
    You not only need to avoid being GCD capped, you also need to be energy capped, since autoattacks are faster no matter what, and GCD capping on a energy class doesn't matter as long as you don't sit on 100 energy. Which will never happen through haste.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jaynith View Post
    Slightly off topic, but where in SimCraft does it show the weights?
    After you check which stats you want to analyze in the options tab and ran the simulation, they are presented in the middle of the result screen:



    Last edited by Maveaux; 2012-11-01 at 04:49 PM.

  9. #9

  10. #10
    Mastery is also part of the energy equation for WW. Free Atks cost no energy!
    FoF costs no energy!
    Heroism also increases energy regen!

    "In both cases you did 10 damage more, hence only it's relation did diminish, not the benefit."
    Except the relation, dps, is what we actually give a shit about. Not its "benefit"!
    Last edited by morbidone; 2012-11-01 at 04:43 PM.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by morbidone View Post
    "In both cases you did 10 damage more, hence only it's relation did diminish, not the benefit."
    Except the relation, dps, is what we actually give a shit about. Not its "benefit"!
    +1% crit while having 20% crit is only 0,1% less effective than having it with 10% crit. Which makes, on the total max amount you can have, 34%, only a 0,3% difference in total dps for each %. Which is not only less than the difference to the next stat, haste, but also within margin. Every sim that calculates two stats within 0,3% of eachother should an will treat them equally. Thus my (practical) statement that it does not diminish against your (theoretical) argument that it potentially could.

    For that the relation is more important than the benefit, you got to have percentages like in WotLK, which will never happen again as blizzard stated that they made a mistake back then, and will scale the ratings appropiately.
    Last edited by Maveaux; 2012-11-01 at 04:58 PM.

  12. #12
    Pit Lord Alltat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maveaux View Post
    If you have 100 damage, and you get 10 more, then you do make 10% more damage.
    If you have 200 damage, and you get 10 more, then you do make 5% more damage.
    In both cases you did 10 more damage, hence only it's relation did diminish, not the benefit.
    Haste and crit don't add flat damage, though. They increase your damage by a percentage and stack multiplicatively. Looking at a very simple example of auto-attack damage only, assuming you start with 10% crit and swing 100 times for 1 damage each (2 on a crit):

    Baseline:
    Crits: 0.1 * 100 * 2 = 20
    Non-crits: (1-0.1) * 100 * 1 = 90
    Total: 110

    With +30% crit:
    Crits: 0.4 * 100 * 2 = 80
    Non-crits: (1-0.4) * 100 * 1 = 60
    Total: 140

    With +30% haste:
    Crits: 0.1 * 100 * 2 * 1.3 = 26
    Non-crits: (1-0.1) * 100 * 1 * 1.3 = 117
    Total: 143

    With +15% crit and +15% haste:
    Crits: 0.25 * 100 * 2 * 1.15 = 57.5
    Non-crits: (1-0.25) * 100 * 1 * 1.15 = 86.25
    Total: 143.75

    Very simple example, but it should get the point across. In the example above, haste is clearly better than crit. But if (in the above example) you have 15% haste already, adding 15% crit is worth more than another 15% haste, despite haste being the better stat overall. So if you had gear with a lot of haste on it, you should be gemming and reforging to crit. If you had gear with a lot of crit on it, you should be gemming and reforging to haste.
    Diplomacy is just war by other means.

  13. #13
    Pardon another noob question, but I'm assuming SimCraft is the end all for determining weights. Can those weights be used with AMR and get reliable results? I'm curious because with SimCrafts weights, AMR is telling me to regem pure agi.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Alltat View Post
    Very simple example, but it should get the point across. In the example above, haste is clearly better than crit. But if (in the above example) you have 15% haste already, adding 15% crit is worth more than another 15% haste, despite haste being the better stat overall. So if you had gear with a lot of haste on it, you should be gemming and reforging to crit. If you had gear with a lot of crit on it, you should be gemming and reforging to haste.
    143 to 143.75 is anything but "clearly better". Actually it's only 0,5% better, which is almost nothing (we are talking 400 more dps on 80000).
    Also, that is only true if you just autoattack.

    And also, morbidone and I were discussing how crit relates in a lab scenario. You are just plain wrong, as every class and every spec behave very differently to different situations. You can not just say: "If you have lots of crits, go to haste". That is just wrong.

    Sim your character and look at the weights is the right choice. Simulationcraft does math everything out for you.[COLOR="red"]

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-01 at 06:09 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaynith View Post
    Pardon another noob question, but I'm assuming SimCraft is the end all for determining weights. Can those weights be used with AMR and get reliable results? I'm curious because with SimCrafts weights, AMR is telling me to regem pure agi.
    Yes it is. AMR however can be wonky at times. Either calc it out yourself (PP of hybridgem+socket bonus against pure gem) or get a second opinion from addons like reforge light.

    Also remember to run at least 10.000 iterations on simcraft before using its weights!

    (And also note that the standard simcraft option to simulate a fight is through the patchwerk style, which is pretty much none of the bosses in T14. You have to simulate the other enviroments aswell, which can be hard work to figure out at times. I highly recommend using sites like elitistjerks or topend guild forums to get straight to the results.

    For example: crit is, in a patchwerk style fight, rated very high. This can be due to the fact that you can use fists of fury very much in a patchwerk style fight. In a movement heavy encounter, you almost have to skip that skill entirely, which will obviously shift the weights again).
    Last edited by Maveaux; 2012-11-01 at 05:17 PM.

  15. #15
    Pit Lord Alltat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maveaux View Post
    143 to 143.75 is anything but "clearly better". Actually it's only 0,5% better, which is almost nothing (we are talking 400 more dps on 80000).
    Also, that is only true if you just autoattack.
    Better is better. If you can reforge to increase your DPS, you reforge to increase your DPS. In the example above, the ideal reforging would actually be 20% haste and 10% crit. Adding other things than auto-attack will change the numbers, but not the overall effect; haste still gets you more attacks, while crit makes your attacks (including those extra attacks from haste) deal more damage. My point was that stat weights change with your stats - just because haste or crit is better at your current gear level, that doesn't mean that the same stat is better for any gear level.

    Simcraft can give you pointers regarding what you could tweak to do a bit more damage, but it will not give you any universal truths. It could be that you're doing everything wrong from the start, and Simcraft just does what it can to salvage a hopeless situation.
    Diplomacy is just war by other means.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Alltat View Post
    Better is better. If you can reforge to increase your DPS, you reforge to increase your DPS. In the example above, the ideal reforging would actually be 20% haste and 10% crit. Adding other things than auto-attack will change the numbers, but not the overall effect; haste still gets you more attacks, while crit makes your attacks (including those extra attacks from haste) deal more damage. My point was that stat weights change with your stats - just because haste or crit is better at your current gear level, that doesn't mean that the same stat is better for any gear level.

    Simcraft can give you pointers regarding what you could tweak to do a bit more damage, but it will not give you any universal truths. It could be that you're doing everything wrong from the start, and Simcraft just does what it can to salvage a hopeless situation.
    Somebody needs to tell mr robot.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Alltat View Post
    Better is better. If you can reforge to increase your DPS, you reforge to increase your DPS. In the example above, the ideal reforging would actually be 20% haste and 10% crit. Adding other things than auto-attack will change the numbers, but not the overall effect; haste still gets you more attacks, while crit makes your attacks (including those extra attacks from haste) deal more damage. My point was that stat weights change with your stats - just because haste or crit is better at your current gear level, that doesn't mean that the same stat is better for any gear level.

    Simcraft can give you pointers regarding what you could tweak to do a bit more damage, but it will not give you any universal truths. It could be that you're doing everything wrong from the start, and Simcraft just does what it can to salvage a hopeless situation.
    ^^This. Why are we constantly bringing up the same topic? Haste and crit are relative based on your current gearing situation.

  18. #18
    Pit Lord Alltat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sumatran View Post
    Somebody needs to tell mr robot.
    Telling mr robot stuff hasn't proven to be very effective in the past. In Cataclysm it used to give reforging advice based on the assumption that you didn't have your own haste buffs (at least for some specs). Either way, I wouldn't trust it too much. It's far from horrible, but if you want serious stat weights and reforging advice, use Simcraft. If you don't want to use Simcraft, you probably didn't care all that much anyway.
    Diplomacy is just war by other means.

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