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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Keashaa View Post
    I don't get it. Most people here say that H Gara'jal > H Elegon. So... since you can access both after defeating Wil of the Emperor on normal mode, why do I see that at wowprogress:

    H: Gara'jal the Spiritbinder: 1046 (3.92%)
    H: Elegon: 491 (1.84%)

    From what you all tell me, the number of Elegon kills on heroic must be supreme to those of Gara'jal.
    Most people are talking about Gara'jal the way it was on first/second reset when they did it. With some gear it gets much easier.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by mixerii View Post
    Most people are talking about Gara'jal the way it was on first/second reset when they did it. With some gear it gets much easier.
    Which is what devalues the entire survey. Shit like H elegon, H Garajal, hell even Garalon become FAR easier with more gear, whereas the difficulty of bosses like stoneguard, feng, and spirit kings don't scale linearly with gear.

  3. #43
    The difference between spirit kings normal and heroic is really funny.. Sad but true.

  4. #44
    Legendary! Ryme's Avatar
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    Normal spirit kings should be at the bottom of the list, it's woefully undertuned on 10m. We one shot it on the first pull, I don't know how you can wipe there unless you can't move from the slow wall of death.

    Heroic stoneguard varies wildly on a week by week basis, it can be tough one week and faceroll the next.

    Elegon normal is a gear check, nothing more - this should perhaps be noted.

    The first boss in HoF is also astoundingly easy (but oh so much fun), it's easily the second or third simplest boss out there.
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  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by mixerii View Post
    Most people are talking about Gara'jal the way it was on first/second reset when they did it. With some gear it gets much easier.
    But no one hindered you to try both bosses in the first/second reset. And both bosses are gear checks with an equal amount of execution.
    So again: why is Gara'jal hc considered to be harded than Elegon hc, but more guildes have downed him so far?

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    Normal spirit kings should be at the bottom of the list, it's woefully undertuned on 10m. We one shot it on the first pull, I don't know how you can wipe there unless you can't move from the slow wall of death.

    Heroic stoneguard varies wildly on a week by week basis, it can be tough one week and faceroll the next.

    Elegon normal is a gear check, nothing more - this should perhaps be noted.

    The first boss in HoF is also astoundingly easy (but oh so much fun), it's easily the second or third simplest boss out there.
    We were trying to teach a plenty of people how to do it in normal mode, somebody died and we ended up one shotting the boss with 9 people. It is like a heroic 5 man version of the boss. Heroic mode is really hard tho. That fight is the deciding factor and most guilds are stuck there.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Keashaa View Post
    But no one hindered you to try both bosses in the first/second reset. And both bosses are gear checks with an equal amount of execution.
    So again: why is Gara'jal hc considered to be harded than Elegon hc, but more guildes have downed him so far?
    Not sure why you are referencing to me, i did not even participate in this survey since factors of gear and class comp make it pointless.

    For us it was since we got stuck on Spirit Kings for whole week and did not try Elegon HC, when we finally got to him our gear was relatively better than one we had when we killed Gara'jal on first HC reset. I take it people that voted had similar reasoning, it's flawed but creates such perception.

  8. #48
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    I have no idea why they just haven't give us a fixed order, or at least made it so Subetai is always the second Spirit King on the encounter.

    I am fairly confident we will kill Heroic Spirit Kings tonight, and all in all I really didn't think the encounter (thus far) was as difficult I heard. My only problem with the encounter is the magnitude in which the encounter climbs in difficulty depending on who you get second. If you get Meng second it's incredibly hard. Is it possible, yeah but you have to ask yourself why?

    I wish this encounter just fixed Subetai as second and randomized the last two. There is no reward for doing this boss the hard way and most guilds will chain reset until they don't have Meng second. Preferably you get Subetai second, but of course it's not necessary.

    I'm not really whining but it's odd that they would randomize the order, make it easy for us to reset the encounter but not reward us for beating the encounter in HM. Basically what I am saying is that the encounter is WAY different depending on order. It goes from being completely comparable to the other heroics in there, to being the hardest if you get a shitty order.

    Spirit Kings is EASILY the easiest encounter on normal though. Our guild completely sucked the first week of normal modes because people simply didn't understand anything (myself included) and this was one of the few bosses we went in and just steamrolled despite knowing little.

  9. #49
    Many more people have killed Gara'jal over Elegon on heroic is because many guilds for whatever reason like to do bosses in order. The community was also slower to get the word out that Elegon Heroic was so easy since not that many guilds got to him and put in the time the way they did for Garajal. I think it is the same way in Tier 11 when Atramedes and Chimaeron were both much easier than Omnotron and Magmaw Heroic but it took a long time for guilds to realize that.

    The idea of skipping a gateway boss for a future one is also basically allowing your guild to not maximize potential. If you go to Elegon on Heroic, and you kill it faster than you expect, there's nothing left for you to progress on that week. So most guilds will work on an earlier boss, even if it's harder, because when you finally kill it, you have new bosses to put attempts on.

    That having been said, if your guild has not killed Heroic Elegon and you are used to a pace of 1 or fewer bosses on heroic killed each week, I recommend moving to Elegon. The loot table alone is worth the trouble. Wands, axes, agility and intellect trinkets.... those will help a guild out far more than Garajal's loot. (AND make Garajal a pushover with the increased dps).
    Last edited by Purrberry; 2012-11-06 at 07:53 PM.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Keashaa View Post
    But no one hindered you to try both bosses in the first/second reset. And both bosses are gear checks with an equal amount of execution.
    So again: why is Gara'jal hc considered to be harded than Elegon hc, but more guildes have downed him so far?
    we had like 80 wipes on gara'jal heroic and 30 on elegon heroic at least.

    gara'jal is harder due to the fucking rng. ppl getting 1 shot combos from several ads at the same time.

    elegon has very little rng, it's just execution.

  11. #51
    • (normal) Spirit Kings
    • (normal) Feng
    • (normal) Gara'jal
    • (normal) Stoneguard
    • (normal) Imperial Vizier Zor'lok
    • (normal) Will or the Emperor
    • (normal) Blade Lord Ta'yak
    • (normal) Elegon
    • (heroic) Stoneguard

    Our list so far from easier to harder. I can only speculate for the rest, but in time we should know first hand
    Last edited by Archidamos; 2012-11-06 at 10:26 PM.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Spotnick View Post
    Elegon is way harder than the first 2 bosses of Heart of Fear.
    I agree with this, if you look at progression on different servers there are several guilds that are 4/6 in MV that are 1/6 or 2/6 in Fear.
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  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Archidamos View Post
    • (normal) Spirit Kings
    • (normal) Feng
    • (normal) Gara'jal
    • (normal) Stoneguard
    • (normal) Imperial Vizier Zor'lok
    • (normal) Will or the Emperor
    • (normal) Blade Lord Ta'yak
    • (normal) Elegon
    • (heroic) Stoneguard

    Our list so far from easier to harder. I can only speculate for the rest, but in time we should know first hand
    Elegon is probably harder than heroic stoneguard.

  14. #54
    spirit king
    feng
    stone guard
    garazal
    elegon / will depending on the party

    haven't done anything more except H stoneguard

  15. #55
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    I'm really surprised that amber shaper is getting rated that hight... it was an absolute loot pinata for us last night took 3 tries in totall and i would rate it as 2nd easiest boss in the instance as far as normal mode goes with only blade lord being easier

    it was on 25 man

  16. #56
    For all the people saying a survey such as this is "worthless", let me argue the contrary.

    The main purpose of this survey (besides just pure curiosity on what people think) is to help guilds decide what bosses to attempt next. So how does that relate to whether this survey is completely meaningless or not? I'll explain.

    So the argument being put forward is that because some of the fights are trivialized more by gear than others, that the results of this survey are skewed by the impressions of raiders that did the bosses in lower ilvl gear and found them hard. However, because guilds that are just now getting to those bosses (or maybe won't even get to them for several more resets) will have much better gear than the raiders who tried them right after they were released, the argument is that the gear will trivialize the bosses too much and because of that a boss such as heroic Gara'jal shouldn't be listed so high, as he becomes pretty faceroll with gear. In other words, the list is useless because it reflects how hard the bosses were in bad gear, and not how hard they are now WITH gear.

    However, have you guys ever raided with pugs, or seen the kind of dps you get grouped with in LFR? Gear does NOT equal high dps. Some people can have really good gear, but still do less dps than a skilled player in dungeon blues. In-fact, if you've never seen a skilled player in dungeon blues out dps an average player in epics, then you need to get out into the WoW scene more. GC has said this before, and the community just hasn't been able to accept or comprehend it, but there is a HUGE skill difference as a group (Blizz tries to avoid using the word "skill", but that's the real issue here) between hardcore guilds that only recruit the best-of-the-best players and guilds that focus more on friendship and casual progression. Every raid team is different, but I've found on my realm (and I don't think my realm is special or unique) that most players cannot play their character to max potential.

    For instance, and here's some hard data for you:
    My guild cleared 6/6 normal Mogu'shan the first week of release. On Elegon during that first week, when our ilvl was basically 463 across the board, our highest dps was 111k effective, and our lowest dps was 75k. This was the first week of release.
    Conversely, a guild on our realm which is currently tied for 6th place in progression, is currently working on Elegon and their highest dps is 98k and their lowest is 55k. The person doing their highest dps (98k) has a 484 ilvl, the person doing their lowest (55k) has a 475 ilvl.
    In other words, despite having a 12 to 21 entire item level advantage over our dps gear wise, they are still pulling less dps than our players did during the first week of raiding. This leads to my main point:

    The Main Point:
    Really skilled players do a lot more dps than the average WoW raider! By the time the average raiding guilds get to a boss like heroic Gara'jal, even though they will have a MASSIVE gear advantage over the hardcore guilds that killed him early on, their dps will likely be about the same as the hardcore guilds when they first killed it. Because of this, the difficulty level that the hardcore guilds felt for a dps check boss while undergeared is probably going to be the same difficulty feeling more casual guilds will experience even with better gear. So it all evens out.
    Last edited by apinksquash; 2012-11-07 at 10:19 AM.

  17. #57
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    Sorry for the offtopic but i cant find the 25man version of this thread, can someone post a link?

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Vyla View Post
    Sorry for the offtopic but i cant find the 25man version of this thread, can someone post a link?
    I'm not sure if there is a survey for 25m boss difficulty.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by apinksquash View Post
    For all the people saying a survey such as this is "worthless", let me argue the contrary.

    The main purpose of this survey (besides just pure curiosity on what people think) is to help guilds decide what bosses to attempt next. So how does that relate to whether this survey is completely meaningless or not? I'll explain.

    So the argument being put forward is that because some of the fights are trivialized more by gear than others, that the results of this survey are skewed by the impressions of raiders that did the bosses in lower ilvl gear and found them hard. However, because guilds that are just now getting to those bosses (or maybe won't even get to them for several more resets) will have much better gear than the raiders who tried them right after they were released, the argument is that the gear will trivialize the bosses too much and because of that a boss such as heroic Gara'jal shouldn't be listed so high, as he becomes pretty faceroll with gear. In other words, the list is useless because it reflects how hard the bosses were in bad gear, and not how hard they are now WITH gear.

    However, have you guys ever raided with pugs, or seen the kind of dps you get grouped with in LFR? Gear does NOT equal high dps. Some people can have really good gear, but still do less dps than a skilled player in dungeon blues. In-fact, if you've never seen a skilled player in dungeon blues out dps an average player in epics, then you need to get out into the WoW scene more. GC has said this before, and the community just hasn't been able to accept or comprehend it, but there is a HUGE skill difference as a group (Blizz tries to avoid using the word "skill", but that's the real issue here) between hardcore guilds that only recruit the best-of-the-best players and guilds that focus more on friendship and casual progression. Every raid team is different, but I've found on my realm (and I don't think my realm is special or unique) that most players cannot play their character to max potential.

    For instance, and here's some hard data for you:
    My guild cleared 6/6 normal Mogu'shan the first week of release. On Elegon during that first week, when our ilvl was basically 463 across the board, our highest dps was 111k effective, and our lowest dps was 75k. This was the first week of release.
    Conversely, a guild on our realm which is currently tied for 6th place in progression, is currently working on Elegon and their highest dps is 98k and their lowest is 55k. The person doing their highest dps (98k) has a 484 ilvl, the person doing their lowest (55k) has a 475 ilvl.
    In other words, despite having a 12 to 21 entire item level advantage over our dps gear wise, they are still pulling less dps than our players did during the first week of raiding. This leads to my main point:

    The Main Point:
    Really skilled players do a lot more dps than the average WoW raider! By the time the average raiding guilds get to a boss like heroic Gara'jal, even though they will have a MASSIVE gear advantage over the hardcore guilds that killed him early on, their dps will likely be about the same as the hardcore guilds when they first killed it. Because of this, the difficulty level that the hardcore guilds felt for a dps check boss while undergeared is probably going to be the same difficulty feeling more casual guilds will experience even with better gear. So it all evens out.
    Eh, I wouldn't say slower progression means "MASSIVE" advantage. It may be true for MV Normal, but for HoF and heroic raids, slower progress means less bosses killed in the past, meaning lower average ilvl. Heroic progression guilds will start out new raid instance at a much higher ilvl because of the gears from heroic bosses.

  20. #60
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    LFR Garalon needs to be added to the list.
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