1. #1

    Fire mage: PoM vs Scorch

    What is the DPS difference? Scorch just seems more useful all the way around, but PoM with Alter time seems..so powerful.

    Also - with the upcoming change to Pyroblast, is POM even good anymore? Will we now PoM, Alter time(with Pyroblast! up) and Pyro>Fireball>Alter time>Pyro>Fireball>Combustion? or what?
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  2. #2
    Dreadlord nimryas's Avatar
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    I prefer scorch over PoM with the number one reason being that it fits my playstyle, I just like to know that i can cast scorch anytime i want when i have to move It's also really good for fights like elegon in between orbs when you're fishing for a instant pyro. U do have a point that PoM pyro with alter time is a great combo, but alter time has a 5min cd so I dont even know if that combo yields more dps then scorch.

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  3. #3
    I've never been able to build good ignites with PoM and might even end up destroying a good ignite because no 25% more dmg from instant, but free pyros are always nice so the way I see it is, if the fight has a lot of movement and I can build more instant pyros because of scorch crit while moving than the number of PoM pyros I would have made, its better to go scorch.

  4. #4
    PoM is strong in it's own right but Blizzard rarely makes fight where movement only happens every 1.5 mins.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by ati87 View Post
    PoM is strong in it's own right but Blizzard rarely makes fight where movement only happens every 1.5 mins.
    The idea behind PoM's usage is getting 4-6 Pyroblasts in a row for Combustion. Get Pyroblast! and Heating up, Pop POM - use Alter Time, then just unload. Pop everything Living Bomb>Pyro>Inferno Blast>Pyro>Pyro>alter time>pyro>pyro>if lucky pyro>Combustion>Inferno Blast>(possible pyro). I can't think of any possible way to get more pyros in a short time..the issue is though, with the CD on Pyroblast PoM suddenly loses a lot of its kick. This lines up with every other Combustion - so you get two of these combustions, usually, per fight.

    The issue is, of course, the CD on Pyroblast. With that, we're losing this option entirely - thus you'd have Pyro>PomFireball>Alter Time>Pom Fireball>Pyro and I'm wondering if that's even worth it..especially with how many movement heavy fights we have.
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  6. #6
    Blademaster Sereas's Avatar
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    Of course Scorch is a comfortable way to deal with movement, but most time it is an illusion that you improve your damage. Scorchs damage is very low compared to Fireball or Pyroblast, in most cases it would be better just to blink and cast another fireball or wait for a Pyro procc/forcing Pyro or refreshing your bomb. Also the Alter Time/Pyroblast combo is extremly strong if you're a bit lucky in situations like Elegon's last phase. I just use Scorch in fights with heavy movement, e.g. Zor'lok.
    Last edited by Sereas; 2012-11-01 at 11:40 PM.

  7. #7
    The three second cooldown change was reverted according to ghost crawlers twitter

  8. #8

    Thumbs down sigh

    Quote Originally Posted by nimryas View Post
    I prefer scorch over PoM with the number one reason being that it fits my playstyle, I just like to know that i can cast scorch anytime i want when i have to move It's also really good for fights like elegon in between orbs when you're fishing for a instant pyro. U do have a point that PoM pyro with alter time is a great combo, but alter time has a 5min cd so I dont even know if that combo yields more dps then scorch.
    1. Your playstyle must involve always being in the wrong spot or running around not having a clue.
    2. It is really good for nerfing your damage on elegon because you fail at saving pyroblasts for orbs
    3. Alter Time is a 3 minute cd and with glyphed combustion you have Pom+Alter time for every other combustion.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Skadovsk View Post
    I've never been able to build good ignites with PoM and might even end up destroying a good ignite because no 25% more dmg from instant, but free pyros are always nice so the way I see it is, if the fight has a lot of movement and I can build more instant pyros because of scorch crit while moving than the number of PoM pyros I would have made, its better to go scorch.
    This is also what I have been thinking. As far as I can tell, when we use the Hotstreak + PoM + Alter Time combination, the sequence is the following:

    - Pyroblast from Hotstreak
    - Pyroblast from PoM
    - Pyroblast from Hotstreak
    - Pyroblast from PoM

    The 25% lesser damage from not being an instant Hotstreak Pyroblast, is that not going to devaluate the total ignite in the end? Compared to two Hotstreak pyros in a row.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by youwantthis View Post
    1. Your playstyle must involve always being in the wrong spot or running around not having a clue.
    2. It is really good for nerfing your damage on elegon because you fail at saving pyroblasts for orbs
    3. Alter Time is a 3 minute cd and with glyphed combustion you have Pom+Alter time for every other combustion.
    Nice 6th post. Keep being a douchebag to people. It'll payoff.

    Blizzard made it pretty clear that their intention for talent design in MoP was that there wasn't always a clear winner, and that playstyle is a valid reason for picking one talent over another. Yes, in the non-existant world of SimulationCraft where every boss is a Patchwerk, one talent may yield more DPS than another, but that's not a useful or realistic point to ever bring into a discussion.

    More to the point, LOTS of fights have damage that force you to move, as other posters have said. It's hardly fair to accuse someone of being clueless for moving during a fight. That's like accusing a healer of being stupid for using mana.

  11. #11
    Scorch because:
    You can cast it while jumping to remove stacks.
    You can cast it while running into position for sparks.
    You can cast it while returning after killing the pylon things.
    PoM Pyro is much weaker than its Hot Streak counterpart.

  12. #12
    PoM Pyro tends to destroy the size of my ignite. I've been playing a little bit with the 4x pyros via alter time, and I often see my ignite jump up and then dip back down by the time the 4th goes off. That might have more to do with the 3rd or 4th not critting after the 1st or 2nd do crit, but it still feels very wrong when I see a 60k ignite and then it takes a dump to ~25k.
    Whatever the case, PoM is fine on some fights, but I don't feel it's a reliable ignite builder.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Skygoneblue View Post
    Blizzard made it pretty clear that their intention for talent design in MoP was that there wasn't always a clear winner, and that playstyle is a valid reason for picking one talent over another.
    Blizzard have been saying the same thing every expansion and they've never managed to make it true. There is still an ideal way to do a fight and skill is measured by how easily you can adjust your playstyle to be closer to the ideal. Someone picking suboptimal talents because they really like the playstyle of running around in circles casting Scorch doesn't belong in a progress raid (yea I like running around in circles casting Scorch too but I limit that to messing around in random bgs).

    More to the point, LOTS of fights have damage that force you to move, as other posters have said.
    We were talking about Elegon though which has almost no movement at all if done properly.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-03 at 08:13 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Pulski View Post
    Scorch because:
    You can cast it while jumping to remove stacks.
    Unnecessary. Fire rotation already has plenty of instant casts.

    You can cast it while running into position for sparks.
    You can cast it while returning after killing the pylon things.
    If your group is doing the fight properly these movements are extremely minimal and you can time them with instant casts for minimal DPS loss. If you're having to move so much that you have time to cast multiple Scorches your group is doing it very wrong.

  14. #14
    High Overlord Urmydinner's Avatar
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    It all depends on how much movement you do during a specific fight.

    If you're going to be moving alot during a fight.. then scorch is obviously going to be the way to go. If you are standing still the entire time like an Ultraxion style fight, then obviously PoM is going to be the better choice.

  15. #15
    Brewmaster Orangetai420's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshimiko View Post
    The idea behind PoM's usage is getting 4-6 Pyroblasts in a row for Combustion. Get Pyroblast! and Heating up, Pop POM - use Alter Time, then just unload. Pop everything Living Bomb>Pyro>Inferno Blast>Pyro>Pyro>alter time>pyro>pyro>if lucky pyro>Combustion>Inferno Blast>(possible pyro). I can't think of any possible way to get more pyros in a short time..the issue is though, with the CD on Pyroblast PoM suddenly loses a lot of its kick. This lines up with every other Combustion - so you get two of these combustions, usually, per fight.

    The issue is, of course, the CD on Pyroblast. With that, we're losing this option entirely - thus you'd have Pyro>PomFireball>Alter Time>Pom Fireball>Pyro and I'm wondering if that's even worth it..especially with how many movement heavy fights we have.
    that change got scrapped
    Blue text indicates sarcasm or joking.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by jaakkeli View Post
    Blizzard have been saying the same thing every expansion and they've never managed to make it true. There is still an ideal way to do a fight and skill is measured by how easily you can adjust your playstyle to be closer to the ideal. Someone picking suboptimal talents because they really like the playstyle of running around in circles casting Scorch doesn't belong in a progress raid (yea I like running around in circles casting Scorch too but I limit that to messing around in random bgs).




    We were talking about Elegon though which has almost no movement at all if done properly.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-03 at 08:13 AM ----------



    Unnecessary. Fire rotation already has plenty of instant casts.



    If your group is doing the fight properly these movements are extremely minimal and you can time them with instant casts for minimal DPS loss. If you're having to move so much that you have time to cast multiple Scorches your group is doing it very wrong.
    Can't say I don't agree with this 100%

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